Whats Up??

[jttheclockman]

I am posting this question here in this forum because it has to do with this forum and lack of responses. Now I have been a member here for a long time and have seen our membership come and go. Have seen the membership grow and also decline and believe it is on the decline the past few years. Have not checked the numbers because they keep varying. Maybe Jeff could address this. As in most web site forums there is always a few members who carry the load or are more boistrous than others. Some are shy and avoid conversation. Understood. But what I do not understand is non participation when it comes to acknowledging members work here. All it takes is a push of a key. Jeff has made things very simple for us. The point of my rant here is this. People and I mean your membership which you are a part of, take the time to show their work and share with us their labor of love of the hobby by posting photos of their pens they made and are proud of. And yet when I see photos of pens and see hundreds of views, there are only a handful of either threads talking about the pen shown or even likes clicked. It just does not make sense. Maybe someone needs to explain to me. Yes I understand not everyone likes the same style of pen made but so many different styles are made and shown here by many different members and yet the numbers of responses are the same. I try to view every pen and mostly either give a like or at times will comment especially if it is a style I like. There are a few members here that do exactly the same and one in particular that does for every single pen shown here and I have commented on this person here before so will not bring it up again. There are some here that like to include photos of their process of making of such pens which they do not have to but choose to in hopes it stimulates conversation and or further exploration of such style pens. This is great.

How hard is it to support our fellow members and show some love for their work. We talk many times about not bad mouthing newbies because it scares them off. Well to me this is something that could have the same effect. They could post a pen and no one replys and they say why bother. Now there are some here that post pens over and over and over of the same type and same blanks and they have to understand it does become a little boring but still a few likes could not hurt. There are also other reasons a person may not comment on another pen but 32,000 members. Now some people are content with not getting the responses of their work and that is fine too but I bet most would like to see some appreciation from what they are doing and a little encouragement to keep on and even improve. Comments and questions should always be encouraged. This is how we all learn.

Anyway rant is over and hope some here take note and hit your like button. Just one man's observation and opinion. Thanks for reading. Stay safe and enjoy the hobby.

 

[Dehn0045]

I notice that on the order of 75% of users online here are "guests" so even if they like a post they are not allowed to 'like' (react to) the post, other platforms don't allow guests to view posts, this might explain some of the disparity between likes on IAP and elsewhere. Also, it is possible that people use 'likes' on other platforms as a means to bookmark posts so they can find them in the future, which isn't really necessary on IAP.

I'd rather get a couple of reactions or thoughtful comments from fellow turners that I have grown to trust and respect, versus a boat load of reactions and 5 word comments from total strangers that may or may not have any connection to penturning. I think that IAP tends to attract members who are a little more individualistic but still want to be a part of a community, so engagement might appear to be lower but a lot of thought and effort goes into the reactions and responses that are shared.

From my observation it seems that posts with certain themes on IAP tend to get the strongest response: "first" posts (i.e. first casting, first kitless, etc), philanthropic or gift theme, and sentimental posts (memorials, etc). This seems appropriate, and I think the IAP community generally gets this right.

All that said, I agree with you. Sometimes we need a reminder that there is a living breathing person on the other end of the computer screen and a little encouragement goes a long way.

 

[Brooks803]

Maybe try the library or search function? The ole tried and true reply to just about any post...

People are going to do or not do what they want regardless of how badly you want them to do it. Would you rather have a genuine response to your work, or a forced one bc someone badgered them into doing it?

Share because you want to. Not because you're looking for an "atta-boy".

 

[Kenny Durrant]

John I get your point and agree for the most part. I try to reply to new members or members that I have interacted with previously with at least a like if not a comment. As far as me posting I usually post something new I've tried or something that I was really pleased with the way it turned out. As far as new things there's not much of that lately so I don't post as much as I used to. As far as PMs I've always replied to every one I've received. That's just my feedback on myself. Also you mentioned Jeff has made it easy to use this app. With the cell phone I don't don't if it could be any easier to post picture or comments. The only thing I have noticed is at times there are several new post and it doesn't take long to get bumped off the front page. I do realize I don't see the full page on my phone but since it's so easy to use I rarely use my computer to look at the IAP. This isn't an excuse it's just why I post or reply more than others. It's also an answer to your question that pertains to me. Thanks

 

[Kcimdrib]

I think we must accept that Pen turning is a very small part of the hobby of woodturning. I like to make other things. For me the IAP is a great community, I'm a relatively new member but during my short time I have had some great discussions and comments from other members. I don't think I can agree with all of these comments. You get out what you put in.
My pen making is a pure hobby I don't want to make it into a business I raise money for a children's charity or give my pens as presents to friends and this makes me very happy.
I always ask for comments on the work I post good or bad because this leads to improvement but I accept not everyone will join in.

 

[Curly]

I will hit the like button when I see something that is well made even if it is a kit I loath and I will comment when it is exceptional. I do admit to not looking at all the SYOP threads and that is more to do with the time I have or in some cases the person posting because it will be a pen they always make the same way every time.

While the stats say there are over 30,000 members I'm pretty sure that is everyone that ever registered, many of whom were only around briefly before moving on or time caught up to them and they are no more. Just before posting there were only 12 members active and 80 odd guests, the bulk of which are data mining bots that contribute nothing. I would be very surprised if there were more than 200 active members visiting in any one day. Although I would be delighted to be corrected and proven wrong. That drops the number of potential responses to any thread by quite a lot.

Maybe we could all give likes no matter what but doesn't that make us an extension of give them all a participation ribbon for showing up? I'm not comfortable doing that.

 

[jttheclockman]

First let me say I am so glad others have chimed in here no matter weather you agree with some or all I said or none at all. I also see it is mainly people that participate most of the time anyway. Now I do not know about who can and who can not post even a like to a thread so can not comment there but I figured if a thread gets over 400 views you should be able to post within that thread. You see that many views you would think more than 5 or 6 likes should occur. Maybe I am way off base here and living in the past but I remember many members who use to show their pens and get over 150 likes and Skiprat is one of them. Go back and look at his pens shown here and see the totals. Many more examples here. I do realize sometimes a pen maker visits his or her thread more often and runs those numbers up but again I guess I am missing something here. I know myself I do not comment on every pen shown here but I do try to make it a point to at least check in and see the latest eye candy posted. Is that not why we do this. Hey maybe members here could care less weather they get likes or even comments and I am searching for answers that do not apply. It was just something I noticed over the years here and thought I would mention.

Just a side note because as I said I have been here a long time and many times when someone brings up a topic or a rant it usually something that has been discussed before and sometimes many times. A couple of you commented on the commenting aspect of the thread so here is a past thread that talked about that same thing from 2014. Many different players back then but some are still here.

https://www.penturners.org/threads/...ou-dont-really-want-them.123525/#post-1676556


Within this thread Jeff speaks to this as well as a well respecked member who I refferenced before Skiprat (Steven) and here is his take on this subject which encompasses what I was talking about.

• Jun 13, 2014

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• #25

Ok, I'll give my tupence worth too.
I consider myself an pretty reasonable pen maker and feel that I do contribute to our hobby via this site.
My ego likes praise as much as the next guy and really enjoy a bit of ribbing from my peers ( fellow members ) about what I did good or not so good.
I do try to be honest with my opinions but I'm afraid that most of the guys I give critique to are Brits. All of the American members that I felt comfortable give 'my opinions' to, have left this site, or very very rarely visit.
(Butch, Jeff, George, Keith, The Cat and several others, etc)

I know in my heart that some of the praise and 'likes' I receive sometimes come solely from being a relative 'old popular member' rather than just on the merits of my work.

That being said, it really pees me off big time when I see an outstanding piece of craftmanship from someone that may not be quite as popular as some of our older members and it gets very few comments.

We have some older members that make very mediocre pens but they are swamped with 'likes' and comments like flies round poo. Just because they may be popular?


Sometimes I think the new 'like' button should be removed, but then again it has it's advantages.

SOYP is subtitled as Show us your BEST work, or something like that. Don't expect tons of praise for average work and never qualify it with something like....'just a quick cell phone pic cos I couldn't be arsed setting up my camera'
If you don't care enough to try and take a decent pic then no-one will care to comment

 

[Dehn0045]

@Curly I agree with you on 'active members' versus the total count. With the old software it was a little easier to analyze because the member list showed "join date" and "last seen" in a table format. Someone more skilled could probably scrape the data from the current software, but I'm not that skilled. One time I pulled the data from the old system for several thousand members and the vast majority of members had not been seen over a year after joining. I think I remember estimating that there were on the order of 1000 "active members" based on my analysis, with a small fraction of that contributing the vast majority of engagement. I am sure that @jeff can pull this up pretty easily, it would be nice if we could have a filtered list of active members based on some sort of easy metric (last seen in the last month).

As for engagement per view - it is my understanding that page views by bots and guests show up in the view count. I would guess that these make up at least 75% of total page views or more, artificially dropping the engagement per view.

 

[Curly]

One other thing to remember is that people that would have come to a pen turning forum in the past are now going to social media for their fix. Unfortunately it is a poor substitute for this place as it is a live in the moment kind off thing and there is no depth of knowledge to the postings and it is very repetitive. It has siphoned off many people before they even get close to us and that is why it is thinner, people wise not waistlines, around here. Once someone gets used to a group or site they are less likely to look for others.

 

[jttheclockman]

@Curly I agree with you on 'active members' versus the total count. With the old software it was a little easier to analyze because the member list showed "join date" and "last seen" in a table format. Someone more skilled could probably scrape the data from the current software, but I'm not that skilled. One time I pulled the data from the old system for several thousand members and the vast majority of members had not been seen over a year after joining. I think I remember estimating that there were on the order of 1000 "active members" based on my analysis, with a small fraction of that contributing the vast majority of engagement. I am sure that @jeff can pull this up pretty easily, it would be nice if we could have a filtered list of active members based on some sort of easy metric (last seen in the last month).

As for engagement per view - it is my understanding that page views by bots and guests show up in the view count. I would guess that these make up at least 75% of total page views or more, artificially dropping the engagement per view.

If not mistaken I do believe Jeff does some sort of filtering out of members that do not show up for certain periods of time here. I believe this conversation was also brought up not long ago.

 

[jttheclockman]

One other thing to remember is that people that would have come to a pen turning forum in the past are now going to social media for their fix. Unfortunately it is a poor substitute for this place as it is a live in the moment kind off thing and there is no depth of knowledge to the postings and it is very repetitive. It has siphoned off many people before they even get close to us and that is why it is thinner, people wise not waistlines, around here. Once someone gets used to a group or site they are less likely to look for others.

Good point.

 

[anthonyd]

I am one of the ones who has not participated actively for about the last five years. This is due to many serious health issues. I believe many of the people here are older and come and go because of this. I am retired now and plan to start making pens again and participating more.

Tony

 

[Alan Morrison]

Good thread, JT.
A lot of good points being made here.
I think that the forum and people's responses in the past have changed. eg. some threads in the past have got responses that run into 3 pages, which just does not happen now. maybe the novelty factor contributed to that in the early days. Maybe pens, in the past, that get a lot of likes get that number because they have been posted for such a long time, as well as being great pens.
Since becoming a member here I hope that I have contributed well to the forum. I try to welcome each new person to the forum, and to 'like' those pens that please me and those that new people post to encourage them.
As I mainly only segment, I generally only post pens that I'm working on and sometimes only the blanks to get feedback from others, especially other segmenters like yourself. The feedback that pleases me most is when folk ask for photographs of the process, which I am happy to post.
I know that pens disappear off the front page quickly because of the volume of threads. I don't know how that can be changed.

 

[Curly]

In the good old days there were no like buttons so the only way to express approval was to post. Quick and easy but cuts down on questions etc.

 

[jttheclockman]

In the good old days there were no like buttons so the only way to express approval was to post. Quick and easy but cuts down on questions etc.

Not sure when that started but you do not have to go back that many years to see the change here for sure. I made reference to that 2014 thread and it talks about this very thing. Your point about social media is a good one because it also brings to light the pace of the world today. We have become a fast pace get out of my way type society and have no time for small things. Maybe the forum is losing its charm and we are just another social media platform. I like the discussion.

 

[Curly]

We are on the fringes of social media but not deep in the instant babble stuff there. While we do have the "Where is the best place to get kits/blanks?""Why did my blank blow up?" and "Why are my barrels out of round?" threads they do not occur 2 or 3 times in the same day all within a short scroll of each other, only to be repeated next day and every day after that. One can to a specific forum here and look through it to learn. There is a Library here that is way better than any thing on social media. Some like the other style but I don't and whip through it pretty quickly because it is so light on good information. We also have a lot less, but some still, of the look at my page or video channel on how to do it, we bare our methods for all to see here. Blast I'm starting to rant. You get the idea.

 

[egnald]

There was a study done about 10-15 years ago related to Social Media and Online Communication using data from organizations with a strong online presence such as Wikipedia, Facebook, Netflix, and others spanning many disciplines. The generalization from data was that 90% of the members are Lurkers, 9% contribute occasionally, and 1% contribute a lot and account for the majority of postings. However, for certain types of networking, like fundraising for charity, have a more skewed ratio. These sites are more on the order of 99.3% Lurkers and only 0.7% contributors. The driving factor here is that donating money is a much stronger action than simply participating by writing remarks.

I wonder how the ratio for IAP stacks up against the norm. What are there about 30,000 members. That would put Lurkers at 27,000; Occasional Contributors at 2,700; and Active Participants at 300.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Kenny Durrant]

I don't think it's the forum. It might be the age group that's changing. Not to insinuate the age of people just the group that likes the fast paced social media. It was mentioned that pens is a small part of woodworking and I'll agree with that. The only thing I'll say is that techniques may cross over to other projects and visa versa. The same goes for other crafts as well for me. I probably spend more time in Micheals, Hobby Lobby and JoAnns than I do in Home Depot and Lowe's.

 

[jeff]

We do log "active members". That's the number of unique members who visit at least once a month. In July, that number was 314. It goes up and down throughout the year, but the year-on-year trend has been down since the Facebook penturning groups began. I understand that it's easy and therefore preferable for people to consume all their content in one place, the same place they engage with their other hobbies, their friends, relatives, the stores they frequent, and their news providers. All according to plan, the techno giants might say.

Bots and guests do contribute to the view count of all content including posts, resources, and media items.

Yes, I do occasionally purge members who joined, have not visited in years, and who have never made a post. There's no real technical benefit to purging them, but I get a mood to tidy up and sweep out the inactive accounts.

 

[howsitwork]

Interesting points being made in this . I use a like on occasion or offer comment if asked for and I have anything I think maybe of value to add.

I have made requests about techniques used and results displayed to clarify things I don't follow . Sometimes there is work I am awestruck by but would not attempt for whatever reasons. Other times I see a really challenging piece and want to try it out .

As for " active members" you only " get out of something what you are prepared to put in" was an old scout saying and it still holds true.

I do try to at least acknowledge any new members .

To all who answer my questions my sincere thanks , and likewise to those who inspire me by their work, thought or comments.

Let's face it life would be so boring if we all thought the same but, one plea from the heart. Let's keep it friendly? Leg pulling is fine but agree to disagree rather than fall out !

Jeff and others , do an excellent job of "encouraging" this.

 

[Jans husband]

Well said all!! Excellent discussion. Certainly more interest generated than my last pen I posted!!!!!!
For my part, I consider myself an active member-I log in at least twice daily, and can't wait to see what is going on.
I am afraid that I still don't understand certain aspects of pen turning eg segmenting and I just don't like CA finishes! I don't think I will ever try them.
It follows that it would be crass of me to attempt to comment on those matters when they are posted.
However, I have achieved what I regard as a few very pleasing results on the lathe, and I thoroughly welcome any comments, but I don't post pictures of every pen I make.
I also contribute to issues where I think I can offer information, and method to some of the queries in other posts.
I respond to Introductions which interest me, eg from the UK.
So all in all, I respond to matters and new posts where I think I can offer something of interest to others, but do not see the point in responding with plaudits for the sake of it.
Very interesting details Jeff-thanks

Mike

 

[jttheclockman]

Thank you Jeff for jumping in. Again I think Pete hit the nail on the head about social media platforms compared to what we offer. Being such a fast paced world people do not want to come here and scroll through hundreds of threads and photos. But they really are shortchanging themselves. We offer so much more than social media platforms in that it is always easy to find and always here when needed. i notice so many times on FB the posts just run on and on and the main topic gets lost or so far down, unless you lock onto it it gets hard to follow. But this explains the downward trend of membership and maybe the age group is trending down some I always thought it would stay the same mostly because this becomes a retired hobby and not a business that is easily achieved. Please keep comments coming.

 

[mmayo]

I like this organization, I like seeing what people make and learning how to improve. I like also to share the items I've made and techniques that work for me. I regularly try to help new folks get over the hump toward good to great pens.

If I don't like something I keep scrolling instead of making a negative comment. I've many private PMs that suggested a way to improve when the poster asked for suggestions.

 

[TonyL]

I don't know the answer other than all forms of media are competing for attention with many, many other forms of media.

I don't know the demographics of this forum, but I am going to assume anecdotally > 75% male and > 75% over 50. If that is close to being correct (I am a member of both groups), I belong to several forums (canned FB and the like months ago):
IAP
UK Version of The IAP
BMW
Blade and Badger
Mentoring (Youth)

I used to belong to more (Guitars, Hummingbirds, Metal Working, Mercedes, Essentials Oils, Golden Retrievers, Aquariums etc.). However at 58, I rather be doing what I can than reading about it (one is not better than the other, just that I feel like doing now as I alluded to earlier). I have been reading about and praying for many folks here that are suffering from some condition from which I may suffer too one day if I am "lucky" enough to get older. I better get to doing more.

I am the controller of a preschool (and have some CPA work clients) , I am most likely the oldest employee (most are 25 to 45). The "groups and forums" that may colleagues belong to (including my son and DIL and even wife) are short-shot burst of information and entertainment. Many prefer not to watch a 15 minutes YT. I don't know how representative my and there behavior is with respect to the general population, but I don't prefer their forms of entertainment and knowledge and they don't prefer mine.

I think most folks over 50 remember going to the library to learn about something, taking a class, apprenticing under someone, etc....I just think times have changed. I compare this forum or a YT video to having to go to the library or waiting to learn from another person in-person. To me, the forum is better, faster, and more enriching than a trip to the library.

I think some compare a forum to going to the library - something which requires more waiting and patience. Maybe, by waiting less you can do more (or do more and make more mistakes)? I don't know.

Every once in a while my office Internet goes down or my instance Excel crashes Most of my colleagues are temporarily frustrated and disappointed. As all start consulting their cell phones to see what is going on with Britney LOL, i get up get a fresh cup of decaf or get some air. I remember having to perform accounting and tax returns by hand. My only automation was an adding machine with a roll of tape. I am sure some here remember before those days.

History tends to repeat itself. Maybe the next generation will crave a more intimate form of sharing information that will look like the days when people gathered once a month in the basement of a church or someone's house to discuss their goldfish, musical instrument or hopefully a new pen design.

I do tip my hats to the UK forums (whether the subject is pens, pretzels or poodles). They appear more light-hearted, less easily offended, and more interested in sharing information. Proving someone wrong/being right appears less important to them - at least what I can tell from the way they communicate. The opposite may be true; I don't know. I can't get inside someone's head.

I think this is a good subject JT. I don't know the answer. I don't think there is an answer. Good night or day folks. Time for bed.

 

[Kcimdrib]

I agree not a lot can be done having been a member of Camera Clubs , Badminton Clubs and Golf Clubs the people on committee have a pretty thankless job and I think the people behind the scenes at the IAP do a great job in effect remotely.
You will never please everyone.
When it comes to Pen Making I favour wood and goog old fashioned turning.
Producing an high polish on a piece of plastic not my idea of creativity BUT THAT'S JUSY MY OPINION plenty of members get a lot of fun from doing just that. Then we have the Laminators and Segmentors wow I can but admire there work and I get so much pleasure from the Pens they produce. So we are all entitled to an opinion and however you produce your Pen good look to you. Listen to what people say and lean that way you get the best out of the IAP

 

[Dehn0045]

@TonyL the 15 minute YouTube videos are now considered the "good old days". TikTok is a somewhat similar platform to YouTube, it's super popular amongst the younger generation and the company is valued at over $400 billion, the maximum video length was recently increased from 60 seconds to 3 minutes!

 

[Kcimdrib]

Let's call time and move on.

 

[jttheclockman]

Let's call time and move on.

It is just a discussion. It will play itself out. I am hoping that my original statement takes hold of others on this site and pay more attention to paying more attention.

 

[PatrickR]

Personally I think the "like" button has made me a bit lazy. In the past I would reply to each comment personally. Now its just easier to press a button. As to the pens posted that I "like" I'm sure it is less than in the past as I only tend to do that when a pen stands out as different, unique and appealing in some way. There are a fair number of posters that are trying to sell pens, to do that you have to make them fast and speed is built on repetition. Accounting for a lot of very similar pens.

 

[Chasper]

I've been a member for 14+ years. I visit the site 3-4 times a week. As well as I can remember I have never commented on a Show Off Your Pen post. I had not clicked on a Show Off Your Pen thread for many, many years. I wouldn't have seen this thread if I had read what forum name first, The title of the thread attracted me. I think I put a pen picture on the Show Off Your Pen forum in 2007, I don't remember if anyone commented. That's all just who I am, I look internal for feedback. If I make a pen I'm proud of I know what I did. But I do get a powerful reinforcement that people like my pens when I sell them.

It is great to see a thread like this where so many people respond so quickly, reminds me of earlier and more heady days on this site.

 

[Nanoqx]

I have taken note to all that has been said here and I have decided to renew my efforts in taking a minute or two of my time to comment and interact with people on this site.

So, buckle up, it's about to get real!

Thanks J.T.

Sincerely,
Chuck

 

[jeff]

The comment from @TonyL about age made me curious. Here's the IAP age distribution. Just about half of us are over 50.

 

[jttheclockman]

The comment from @TonyL about age made me curious. Here's the IAP age distribution. Just about half of us are over 50.

There is a hidden message in there somewhere

 

[Kcimdrib]

I have counted 17 members have replied it would take a pretty good Pen to achieve that. So let's just have social chit chat. And thow the odd Pen.

 

[TonyL]

@TonyL the 15 minute YouTube videos are now considered the "good old days". TikTok is a somewhat similar platform to YouTube, it's super popular amongst the younger generation and the company is valued at over $400 billion, the maximum video length was recently increased from 60 seconds to 3 minutes!

You are right. I logged on to tiktok to check-out the hype and I bombarded with content I found inappropriate...so I closed the account. I guess am I now "old".

 

[TonyL]

The comment from @TonyL about age made me curious. Here's the IAP age distribution. Just about half of us are over 50.

Thanks Jeff.

 

[jeff]

@TonyL the 15 minute YouTube videos are now considered the "good old days". TikTok is a somewhat similar platform to YouTube, it's super popular amongst the younger generation and the company is valued at over $400 billion, the maximum video length was recently increased from 60 seconds to 3 minutes!

Don't forget the new YouTube "Shorts" and Instagram "Reels".
Our collective attention span seems to be getting rapidly, drastically shorter.

 

[RichAldrich]

Great topics. Thanks for sharing!

Most questions I ask or receive are through PM. Is this a good practice for us sharing?

 

[jttheclockman]

Great topics. Thanks for sharing!

Most questions I ask or receive are through PM. Is this a good practice for us sharing?

No not really. I know it is done . This site is based on a community sharing ideas and stories. I feel if you have such a unique idea that you do not want others to try or ask about then do not show us. There is the notion of trying to figure things out for yourself but lets face it everything will be copied at some time. Unless you get into pattens it is up for grabs. So why not help others and maybe they can expand on your ideas and then your roles maybe reversed. Maybe sit on the how to's for awhile to give people a chance to develop on their own. I have always shared anything anyone asked of me here. I learned much from this site from the very first I stumbled on this site before I even joined. I did not think I would ever get into pen turning but it grew on me and here I am some 16 years later.