What's all the excitement about kitless pens?

[mikeschn]

So after doing near kitless, I decided to bite the bullet and just do a kitless... Then sitting back and pondering the result, I got to wondering, what is all the excitement about?

A few things I noticed right off the bat...
1) It was a time consuming process compared to making regular kits
2) The resulting pen was really light in weight. I guess I am used to pens that are a little heavier!
3) I wonder how durable this pen is going to be without a center band. The wall are not much more than 1mm in thickness...
4) To be truely kitless, I also need to learn how to make the section...

Okay, so those might be the cons... What would the pros be? Why would you want to turn a kitless pen?

 

[rixstix]

Another what I perceive as a con is the lack of significant "magpie" effect in most kitless pens.

The average consumer seems to be attracted to flashy, shiny things which do not exist in great proportion in the kitless world.

Another consumer comment, "No pocket clip?"

On the pro side, the blank thickness is greater (generally speaking) so there is no worry about a brass tube showing.

 

[jalbert]

Because the sky's the limit.

 

[mikeschn]

@rixstix

lack of magpie effect... good point!

I have Barry Gross's book, "Pen Turners's Workbook" and every single one of his pens in that book uses some kind of a kit. He has the knowledge and skills to do kitless, but there's no kitless to be seen anywhere! (BTW, the 4th edition of his book will be out in August 2023!)

Regarding the clip, I've been doing clipless closed end caps to see if it helps prevent the pen from drying out too fast. But I've had more than one cap roll off the table!

 

[Kenny Durrant]

Although I don't do "Kitless" I do admire others work. I think you might get more satisfaction doing all the work yourself. That's why I never got into fly fishing. I'd have to build the rod and all the flys. I think it would be cool to catch a fish with the tools you made. Back to the original question. I build my own blanks and with that it keeps me busy. Kitless is another avenue that would take more time and tools that I'm not willing to spend. Personally I get more out of something when I have a little effort involve than if I just but it.

 

[target64]

@rixstix

I have Barry Gross's book, "Pen Turners's Workbook" and every single one of his pens in that book uses some kind of a kit. He has the knowledge and skills to do kitless, but there's no kitless to be seen anywhere! (BTW, the 4th edition of his book will be out in August 2023!)

Maybe that is due to the fact he teaches kitless pen classes and does not want to diminish that revenue stream.

 

[target64]

I like doing Kitless pens for some of the reasons people do not like them. I no longer do kit pens period. They are time consuming, and I am happy if I can finish one in a weekend. You can make them in any length or weight you prefer. Do you want a clip, then put it on. Do you prefer a roll stop, then put it on. The Kitless pens I am making are not meant to be for the average consumer. BUT to me this is a hobby as I already have a job.

 

[mikeschn]

@target64
Can you give me an example of a kitless pen that you've made? A photo? Thanks...

 

[target64]

@target64
Can you give me an example of a kitless pen that you've made? A photo?

 

[target64]

Here is an example

 

[target64]

 

[mikeschn]

@target64

Very nice... I'm guessing you have many hours and hours and hours into each one of those!

 

[target64]

@target64

Very nice... I'm guessing you have many hours and hours and hours into each one of those!

Actually have about 6-8 hours in each. Lately I have been doing the turning and shaping on the cap and body on Saturday. Then do my section along with the sanding and polishing on Sunday afternoons. I am still figuring out where I am going and how best to get there.

 

[jttheclockman]

Mike it is not a one VS the other thing. It is just another avenue that you can travel down in the hobby of making writing instruments. One is no better than the other. The same aspects used in kitless can be used in kit form pens. You can make your own blanks anyway you choose and be as creative as you want in a kit pen. You can eliminate the clip or center band or make it a closed end pen also. You want to add a rollstop to a kit pen go for it. Unless you have the ability to do metal work and carving like some kitless pens you see here kitless pens are basic. With kit pens the components are the jewelry of the pen and eye candy many times so each takes a skillset and have fun with what you choose and do both. Expand your skillset.

 

[its_virgil]

Another consumer comment, "No pocket clip?"

On the pro side, the blank thickness is greater (generally speaking) so there is no worry about a brass tube showing.

Kitless pens do not have tubes and several make them with clips. Many make their own clips and the rest of us use purchased clips.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[its_virgil]

Someone delete this please. Why can't we delete posts?

 

[DENO]

So after doing near kitless, I decided to bite the bullet and just do a kitless... Then sitting back and pondering the result, I got to wondering, what is all the excitement about?

A few things I noticed right off the bat...
1) It was a time consuming process compared to making regular kits
2) The resulting pen was really light in weight. I guess I am used to pens that are a little heavier!
3) I wonder how durable this pen is going to be without a center band. The wall are not much more than 1mm in thickness...
4) To be truely kitless, I also need to learn how to make the section...

Okay, so those might be the cons... What would the pros be? Why would you want to turn a kitless pen?View attachment 352497

Kitless pens do not have tubes and several make them with clips. Many make their own clips and the rest of us use purchased clips.
Do a good turn daily!
Don
View attachment 352514
View attachment 352515
View attachment 352516

 

[DENO]

Because a kitless pen takes skill, a 5 year old or younger can make a kit pen

 

[jrista]

So after doing near kitless, I decided to bite the bullet and just do a kitless... Then sitting back and pondering the result, I got to wondering, what is all the excitement about?

A few things I noticed right off the bat...
1) It was a time consuming process compared to making regular kits
2) The resulting pen was really light in weight. I guess I am used to pens that are a little heavier!
3) I wonder how durable this pen is going to be without a center band. The wall are not much more than 1mm in thickness...
4) To be truely kitless, I also need to learn how to make the section...

There is no particular way to do a kitless pen. I think a lot of kitless makers follow some of the designs of the old classic great pen manufacturers. Having delved into some of those manufacturers in recent months, I see where the inspiration comes from. However, that is not the only way to make a kitless pen.

You can certainly make room for a center band if you want. Someone recently posted about damascus steel parts, and I asked about the viability of clips and bands that could work for both kitted and kitless pens. You could certainly make your own bands and clips.

Not everyone does the rounded finial on the cap. Some people get more creative, add a metallic band and then an alternative material or two. Some people put in their own custom finial badge.

I haven't done kitless yet myself. However, I've seen some absolutely brilliant designs on these forums. You can do anything you want. There is no reason the material would need to be light weight, and you could combine any number of materials if you wished. Some people do custom engravings on their metallic parts. I myself have wanted to try custom engraving or guilloche (sp?) on the blanks themselves, with say a straight line engine/rose engine.

You can do anything you want, 100% crafted by your own hands, 100% designed in your own head. That isn't exciting to you?

I recently watched a video of a custom pen maker in Japan. The video didn't show the full 100% of the work, but most of it. It wasn't even an full hour long IIRC, for this completely custom pen to be crafted out of raw materials. The thing was amazing in the end as well. And quite unique, in terms of look and feel. I spend more time than that on my kitted pens. So, it need not be a super time intensive thing...I'd figure once you got the hang of it, and knew the design you wanted and had all the proper tools to make short work of each task, then, it shouldn't really take any longer than any other pen.

 

[Displaced Canadian]

I do kitless pens because I enjoy the process. Yes they take longer and are more difficult to do but to me that's what makes them fun. Once I get a particular style figured out I try something different. For me it's more fun per dollar spent.

 

[jttheclockman]

People keep saying that kitless is more difficult to do but I can argue I spend more time on blanks I make than those that do kitless blanks. I make kit pens. In the true sense it does take more time if doing a single blank or even a double blank that you did not make. Kitless can be so much more than a simple blank with threads on it. I encourage you all to look at Skiprats pens. Steven took kitless to another level. For years he dazzled all of us with his creations. I would like to see more of these type kitless pens. Imagination is what drives a pen design. Weather kit pens or kitless you get out of it what effort you put into it. Do what you like and you enjoy the hobby more this way. Not everyone has the same skillset so no one style is better than the other. Happy Turning.

https://www.skipratpens.com/

 

[duncsuss]

Mike, it's a funny thing: I started making pens without kits because I wanted to see what it was about. I wasn't interested in somebody telling me what the attraction was, I wanted to try it for myself.

My recommendation to you is "try it - or don't." There's no point asking people (especially those who have never tried it) what the attraction is, because everyone's boat is floated by different things, and I'm not going to encourage you to do something you're not interested in.

 

[mikeschn]

Lots of good comments... so here's what see as the list of pros...

1) Creativity!!!!! With kitless pens you can be creative, both with the design and the materials. That includes adding bling, like David Broadwell

Fountain Pens

Broadwell takes pride in the details of creating his one of a kind custom fountain pens. His handmade fountain pens are truly fine luxury writing instruments. To place an order for your own custom …

www.broadwellstudios.com

2) Enjoyment of the time it takes to make a kitless pen (it's fun!)
3) Satisfaction of a pen well made!
4) Development of your skill set, learning new things
5) Requires a higher level skill set
6) Can be a higher level of quality than a pen kit

Did I miss anything?

 

[KenB259]

Lots of good comments... so here's what see as the list of pros...

1) Creativity!!!!! With kitless pens you can be creative, both with the design and the materials. That includes adding bling, like David Broadwell

Fountain Pens

Broadwell takes pride in the details of creating his one of a kind custom fountain pens. His handmade fountain pens are truly fine luxury writing instruments. To place an order for your own custom …

www.broadwellstudios.com

2) Enjoyment of the time it takes to make a kitless pen (it's fun!)
3) Satisfaction of a pen well made!
4) Development of your skill set, learning new things
5) Requires a higher level skill set, versus a simple kit that can be assembled by a 5 year old!
6) Can be a higher level of quality than a pen kit

Did I miss anything?

Only the fact that the 5 year old comment is offensive to everyone that doesn't make "kitless" pens.

 

[mikeschn]

Only the fact that the 5 year old comment is offensive to everyone that doesn't make "kitless" pens.

Okay, edited!

 

[KenB259]

Okay, edited!

Thank you for that.

 

[jttheclockman]

AS I mentioned Mike, you can also make a hybrid pen. A combination of kit and kitless too. Just saying.

 

[Mortalis]

I dont make kitless pens but, I would think that the bigger take aways are:

• Satifaction of doing something not all pen turners are or can do,
• The ability to be able to say, "yes, I made it all" (with the exception of the nib maybe)

I've been asked so many times the question, "Did you make it all?" I feel some what diminished if I say I source the metal parts. Would be really exhilerating to truly say, "yes".
I envy those that have the time and patience to learn and invest in the process.

 

[KateHarrow]

Check out guys like Tim Cullen, John Greco, Jason Olson, Jim Hinze, Greg Hardy, Ryan Krusak and you'll see what all the fuss is about

 

[Darios]

Because a kitless pen takes skill, a 5 year old or younger can make a kit pen

?

I'm at least 5 years of practice away from being able to even do a fraction of these:

No Comments Just post new segmented pens and Likes

Please post only your segmented pens in here and don't comment on anyones work just Like it then we can keep a record of works. Hope you all like the idea. Purple Heart and Black Ash Burl on a Jr. Gent 2 Fountain in Gold

www.penturners.org

 

[RunnerVince]

I don't agree that kitless pens take more skill. They require different skills. Even where time is concerned, I know some turn kit pens and spend a weekend on one pen. I'm happy to get two or three good pens on a Saturday and still have time to spend time with my wife. I watched a demo at SWAT a few years ago, and the demonstrator had 90% of the pen done in an hour.

The biggest difference I saw at that demo was in the equipment required. Beyond that, turning is still turning. Parts have to mate properly whether it's a kit or kitless pen. You still have the same considerations for applying a finish, and so on.

The biggest difference is the freedom in the design. Because you're making all the components, you get to choose the overall design rather than being constrained at the ends and (if a two-barrel pen) middle. But as others have mentioned, you can put that creativity into the creation of the blank itself, or to turning your own custom center band (which means you can eliminate the dimensional constraint in the middle of a two-barrel pen). Or you can concentrate on getting the best-possible finish. Do what makes you happy and, if you're going that route, what makes your customers happy.

 

[KenB259]

I don't agree that kitless pens take more skill. They require different skills. Even where time is concerned, I know some turn kit pens and spend a weekend on one pen. I'm happy to get two or three good pens on a Saturday and still have time to spend time with my wife. I watched a demo at SWAT a few years ago, and the demonstrator had 90% of the pen done in an hour.

The biggest difference I saw at that demo was in the equipment required. Beyond that, turning is still turning. Parts have to mate properly whether it's a kit or kitless pen. You still have the same considerations for applying a finish, and so on.

The biggest difference is the freedom in the design. Because you're making all the components, you get to choose the overall design rather than being constrained at the ends and (if a two-barrel pen) middle. But as others have mentioned, you can put that creativity into the creation of the blank itself, or to turning your own custom center band (which means you can eliminate the dimensional constraint in the middle of a two-barrel pen). Or you can concentrate on getting the best-possible finish. Do what makes you happy and, if you're going that route, what makes your customers happy.

Very well said, 100% agree.

 

[derekdd]

Mike it is not a one VS the other thing. It is just another avenue that you can travel down in the hobby of making writing instruments. One is no better than the other. The same aspects used in kitless can be used in kit form pens. You can make your own blanks anyway you choose and be as creative as you want in a kit pen. You can eliminate the clip or center band or make it a closed end pen also. You want to add a rollstop to a kit pen go for it. Unless you have the ability to do metal work and carving like some kitless pens you see here kitless pens are basic. With kit pens the components are the jewelry of the pen and eye candy many times so each takes a skillset and have fun with what you choose and do both. Expand your skillset.

Yes, this guy in Belgium, IIRC, is a jeweler, also and brings those skills to bear in his kitless pens that are fantastic. I get lost watching his YT videos as he makes these. Considering how much time and materials he has into them, the prices appear reasonable.

https://www.garcia-deschacht.com/penstore

 

[derekdd]

Lots of good comments... so here's what see as the list of pros...

1) Creativity!!!!! With kitless pens you can be creative, both with the design and the materials. That includes adding bling, like David Broadwell

Fountain Pens

Broadwell takes pride in the details of creating his one of a kind custom fountain pens. His handmade fountain pens are truly fine luxury writing instruments. To place an order for your own custom …

www.broadwellstudios.com

2) Enjoyment of the time it takes to make a kitless pen (it's fun!)
3) Satisfaction of a pen well made!
4) Development of your skill set, learning new things
5) Requires a higher level skill set
6) Can be a higher level of quality than a pen kit

Did I miss anything?

More new tools!

That's always a positive, right?

 

[jttheclockman]

Yes, this guy in Belgium, IIRC, is a jeweler, also and brings those skills to bear in his kitless pens that are fantastic. I get lost watching his YT videos as he makes these. Considering how much time and materials he has into them, the prices appear reasonable.

https://www.garcia-deschacht.com/penstore

Yes when you can do the engraving and metal work also that takes a kitless pen to a new level. Just as when you can create a special blank for a kit pen takes that pen to a new level. I think both artforms could actually pick up hints and ideas from each other. That is what makes this little canvas so interesting because the sky is the limit. New ideas are always being shown somewhere. Have to love it.

 

[Fred Bruche]

Check out guys like Tim Cullen, John Greco, Jason Olson, Jim Hinze, Greg Hardy, Ryan Krusak and you'll see what all the fuss is about

Just to add a few to Kate's list
Resources from the podcast As the Pen Turns

 

[sorins]

Kitless pens do not have tubes and several make them with clips. Many make their own clips and the rest of us use purchased clips.
Do a good turn daily!
Don
View attachment 352514
View attachment 352515
View attachment 352516

I would say that some kitless do have tubes, although they are not tubes from a kit, but they are inserts, made of brass or ebonite or even acrylic, to support either the wall thickness and/or the connecting threads.

 

[its_virgil]

I would say that some kitless do have tubes, although they are not tubes from a kit, but they are inserts, made of brass or ebonite or even acrylic, to support either the wall thickness and/or the connecting threads.

I should have qualified my response, like you, that some do have interior supporting sleeves. I use sleeves (inserts) when using wood for the pen body and cap to give support and for threading. I do not use sleeves with the material will accept threading.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[its_virgil]

I really enjoy the journey of making kitless pens (although I don't like the term kitless but that is another discussion). The satisfaction i get is much greater than with kit pens. I do modify a lit of kits and that too is gratifying.

Someone mentioned the cost of tooling as a con to kitless pen making. Yes, the hobby, or business, can be a little expensive to start and continue. But, I have several friends who have spent way more on golf clubs, golf carts, green fees, hunting and fishing equipment, hunting and fishing leases and trips. Just a little perspective always helps.
Do a good turn daily!
Don