What is political??

[dgscott]

Hmmm -- good questions, interesting responses.

There's actually a simple solution to all this -- remove the "Casual Conversation" Forum and the problem goes away. I realize that if you ask those who are easily offended not to click on any posts in that Forum, they'll be offended, but you could put a big warning up -- "Enter at your own risk! There may be things stated in posts in this Forum with which you disagree!"

OR you could ask people to click on a disclaimer before they enter the Forum -- "I certify that I am emotionally mature and non-reactive."

But then, people might get offended.

Doug

 

[Smitty37]

Hmmm

Curtis I think one difference might be the difference between a discussion and a comment, a discussion will have members joining in with their opinions, But a comment may be a completely different animal. such as Please don't take this as either a but some one commenting on President Obama's dancing with the kids in India, would seem to be acceptable provided it didn't get ugly.
I honestly don't think jokes or satire are really political discussions.
I don't know whether being political requires a partisan stance, but we should be allowed to poke fun at some of these people not the parties, just some of the people.
And I do think that "Statements" about a country's Government have to be considered political discussion as soon as a second party joins into the post, then it's become a political discussion!
but I think there should be some satirical comments allowed as long as they aren't overtly offensive, after all that's what we have a government for, cause some times we just need a good laugh.

So does that mean if I say that I think Social Security should have gotten a COLA increase for next year .... that's OK, but if someone says they agree it is now political?

 

[alphageek]

And I do think that "Statements" about a country's Government have to be considered political discussion as soon as a second party joins into the post, then it's become a political discussion!
but I think there should be some satirical comments allowed as long as they aren't overtly offensive, after all that's what we have a government for, cause some times we just need a good laugh.

So does that mean if I say that I think Social Security should have gotten a COLA increase for next year .... that's OK, but if someone says they agree it is now political?

I think there maybe a typo there, smitty... If I read that whole sentence that you highlighted it doesn't quite make sense.. if you replace the first "discussion" with "because", it makes much more sense.

Your example is either political or it isn't.. the only thing that changes when someone agrees or disagrees is that it becomes a discussion.. before that it was just a statement.

 

[LizardSpit]

One vote for a political/religous forum. No tolerance outside the forum. in the forum, let the fur fly. This way If I want political/religous conversation I now wher to go, if I don't I know where to avoid. Personally I will avoid the forum.

 

[Smitty37]

Not so

You know, I still consider myself only a visitor to IAP, but I do add things occasionally. My last two thread-starts got deleted though. One dealt with a cartoon that appeared on the front page of the Sunday comics and dealt with school prayer. The other dealt with how senior citizens are treated worse than prisoners. Pertaining to the first, I'm a school teacher who sees where prayer could only help things. As for the 2nd, my family owns a nursing home and I have a 93 year old mother. How anyone can be offended by these posts is beyond me, but... oh well. I don't get mad, I certainly respect others' opinions and I still come back for ideas.

Jim,
I just want to clarify one thing here.. You're 2nd thread was not deleted, just locked. Its still there, go ahead an look if you want.

Secondly, it surprises me that you can't see how anyone could be offended by it. You own a nursing home, and wouldn't be offended if you were told that you are treating people under your care poorly? If not, I'm glad you are able to take that in stride, but not all can.

Dean Charlier
Assistant Moderator

Hi Dean...unless we are thinking of two different threads there was no specific nursing home mentioned. Hence no one should have felt they were being insulted unless their Nursing Home fit the description. :redface:

 

[mbroberg]

This is one of those issues that is nearly impossibloe to adequately address.

What constitutes a political DISCUSSION?

Two or more people talking about a political issue. The problem I perceive the moderators having is that on this forum someone might post an innocent comment that can later turn into a discussion. What is the motive of the poster when the comment is posted? Is the comment expected to be read and no comments left?


Commenting that the Repiblicans did well in the mid-term is not a political discussion. That will lead to comments about what effect that might have on future legislation, whether it be good or bad, and turns it into a discussion that can spiral out of control quickly. Personally, I don't log-in to the IAP to read what is going on in DC. There are plenty of Forums around that welcome the comments that lead to discussion. Unless it involves something having to do with pen turning I skip over it.

• Does it need to be partisan to be considered political?

No

• Are jokes and comments about any country's government considered political discussion even if they are not partisan?

No, but they can spark some emotions that lead to political discussion.

• Are statements/commentary about a country's government considered political?

These will always lead to a discussion.

This is a Pen turning site. If I want to know someone's opinion about a political issue, or hear a political joke there are other places I can go.

On the other hand, some people need to learn to better handle opinions that they don't agree with. Opposition does not always need to be an argument.

 

[Smitty37]

And I do think that "Statements" about a country's Government have to be considered political discussion as soon as a second party joins into the post, then it's become a political discussion!
but I think there should be some satirical comments allowed as long as they aren't overtly offensive, after all that's what we have a government for, cause some times we just need a good laugh.

So does that mean if I say that I think Social Security should have gotten a COLA increase for next year .... that's OK, but if someone says they agree it is now political?

I think there maybe a typo there, smitty... If I read that whole sentence that you highlighted it doesn't quite make sense.. if you replace the first "discussion" with "because", it makes much more sense.

Your example is either political or it isn't.. the only thing that changes when someone agrees or disagrees is that it becomes a discussion.. before that it was just a statement.

That is the point...if it's political at all, before someone else came in it was a political statement. The question is...is a political statement OK until it becomes a discussion? If the 2nd party just expresses agreement is that a discussion?

 

[alphageek]

Hi Dean...unless we are thinking of two different threads there was no specific nursing home mentioned. Hence no one should have felt they were being insulted unless their Nursing Home fit the description. :redface:

I disagree Smitty.. Someone WAS insulted, and no-one can judge how someone else should feel. You don't need to fit a description to be insulted.

 

[IPD_Mrs]

It is a shame to say but I think politics, religion and race should not be allowed. It doesn't matter how good meaning and without malice the post is, you will most likely offend someone. This is too good of a place to see it ruined over posts with this type of content. It may be "over moderation" but a polite sorry but the post must be deleted or closed is much better than a thread that blows up.

 

[BRobbins629]

Any time a policy is set or change is made, whether in this forum or anywhere else, there will be 3 groups of people. Those that like the change, those that don't, and those who don't care. If the ones that don't choose to leave, they believe the downside of the policy or change outweighs the benefits of staying. As for this topic, I'm probably in the group that doesn't care but I do like black and white rules and have never had a problem with any moderators decision. It's Jeff house - he sets the rules and appointed trusted moderators to enforce and interpret if necessary. If Jeff wants a vote, lets vote, but I'm having a hard time with these long drawn out threads unrelated to penmaking. They turn me off more than posts folks are complaining about.

 

[B727phixer]

+1 do away with casual conversation forum

 

[Scotty]

Good grief. I don't post much, but I do look at this site several times a day. I don't look at posts that don't interest me. I am almost sorry I clicked on this one.

 

[Smitty37]

I wonder

I wonder what it is that causes some folks to take offence at something appearing in a thread (other thas perhaps a personal insult directed at them) that they have complete control over whether or not they read it.

If you don't like political or religious posts and you see one (and there are not a lot of them) then exercise your right to not read them. Why on earth let such a small and insignificent thing upset you? For goodness sakes, the world does not owe it to you to never say anything that you don't want to hear. And, I seriously doubt that a political opinion expressed on this or any other forum is going to cause you any personal harm.

 

[ed4copies]

Hi Dean...unless we are thinking of two different threads there was no specific nursing home mentioned. Hence no one should have felt they were being insulted unless their Nursing Home fit the description. :redface:

I disagree Smitty.. Someone WAS insulted, and no-one can judge how someone else should feel. You don't need to fit a description to be insulted.

With several hundred "reads", "Someone" can become insulted every thread. Most "someones" don't hit the yellow triangle to complain. So, their thoughts go unregistered.

We have grown to be a society that responds to those who "run to the cop" when things don't match THEIR agenda.

Stop responding to ONE complaint!! You can see how many views there were--if there are two or more complaints, weigh it as a percentage of the viewership and use JUDGEMENT to determine what should be done.

Not as EASY as enforcing the rules, but more responsive to the "social mores" of this society.

 

[Displaced Canadian]

I think in the realm of politics it is better to error on the side of caution.
A political joke will be funny to one and an call to arms for another.
A political statement will always lead to a discussion.
Any political discussion will be partisan
In my opinion it takes about 1 post to go from a civil discussion to a heated argument.
Just my opinion.

 

[Dudley Young]

:frown:These will always lead to a discussion.

This is a Pen turning site. If I want to know someone's opinion about a political issue, or hear a political joke there are other places I can go.

On the other hand, some people need to learn to better handle opinions that they don't agree with. Opposition does not always need to be an argument.
__________________
Mike Broberg
Interim Activities Manager
I agree. This is getting sickening.

 

[Rmartin]

With several hundred "reads", "Someone" can become insulted every thread. Most "someones" don't hit the yellow triangle to complain. So, their thoughts go unregistered.

We have grown to be a society that responds to those who "run to the cop" when things don't match THEIR agenda.

Stop responding to ONE complaint!! You can see how many views there were--if there are two or more complaints, weigh it as a percentage of the viewership and use JUDGEMENT to determine what should be done.

Not as EASY as enforcing the rules, but more responsive to the "social mores" of this society.

I agree!

 

[Smitty37]

You can....

+1 do away with casual conversation forum

Why can't you do that for yourself...there are dozens of forums that for one reason or another I never look at. Just don't read it. Seems pretty simple to me.

 

[jimm1]

I heading to the Jack Daniel's Distillery this weekend. I usually go there to buy barrels to cut up for everyone. This time I may just have to buy some real Jack. I need a drink. AND I HAVEN'T HAD A DRINK IN 21 YEARS.

 

[alphageek]

Hi Dean...unless we are thinking of two different threads there was no specific nursing home mentioned. Hence no one should have felt they were being insulted unless their Nursing Home fit the description. :redface:

I disagree Smitty.. Someone WAS insulted, and no-one can judge how someone else should feel. You don't need to fit a description to be insulted.

With several hundred "reads", "Someone" can become insulted every thread. Most "someones" don't hit the yellow triangle to complain. So, their thoughts go unregistered.

We have grown to be a society that responds to those who "run to the cop" when things don't match THEIR agenda.

Stop responding to ONE complaint!! You can see how many views there were--if there are two or more complaints, weigh it as a percentage of the viewership and use JUDGEMENT to determine what should be done.

Not as EASY as enforcing the rules, but more responsive to the "social mores" of this society.

Ed, I never meant to imply that there was only 1 complaint. I'm not saying there how many there was nor am I going to discuss those complaints in public. We DO use judgement, and have discussions on a large percentages of actions. As for as "easy" as enforcing the rules, I WISH! The only reason I used the term "someone" complained was to negate the statement that "no one" should have felt they were being insulted.

Everyone has an 'agenda' ... its funny - I'm in a Lou Tice class this week for work. He uses a term for this "scotomas" (google is gonna get a work out on that one). We all act with our own "views" of the truth.

This thread is about helping the moderators see more into the memberships views. That way we (moderators) can work with Jeff to be sure that the the moderators are following Jeffs rules (since this is his house) and clarify the rules if necessary so that we can use our judgment BETTER.

Personally, I thank everyone for responding with their views on the topic - hopefully we gather enough information to be useful.

Dean Charlier
Assistant Moderator

 

[Russianwolf]

If I am correctly reading between the lines (and if I'm wrong it won't be the first time) These are two of the threads being alluded to in the original post (one by me).

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=70701&highlight=economy

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=70437&highlight=economy

Neither weren't exactly political as both were satirical comments on fixing the ailing economy. No parties were mentioned, no politicians (unless you count a dead one) were mentioned. I wouldn't expect either to lead into an actual discussion of the merits of the "plans" since they are both so far fetched.

Should posts of this type be banned?

 

[alphageek]

+1 do away with casual conversation forum

Why can't you do that for yourself...there are dozens of forums that for one reason or another I never look at. Just don't read it. Seems pretty simple to me.

Actually, if you want to - you can... Go into the User CP, then in options you can select forums that you don't want to see in your "new posts" feed and then if you never intentionally go into them, you'll never even see the posts.

 

[Smitty37]

Well then...

Hi Dean...unless we are thinking of two different threads there was no specific nursing home mentioned. Hence no one should have felt they were being insulted unless their Nursing Home fit the description. :redface:

I disagree Smitty.. Someone WAS insulted, and no-one can judge how someone else should feel. You don't need to fit a description to be insulted.

My opinion is that in that case you do. If I say "All parachuitist are crazy" that is no reason for any individual parachuitist to be insulted. To disagree yes, to be insulted no. The reader has to use common sense and good judgement too.

 

[jeff]

Some folks just got tired of the new way things are being done here.

Did any of these people ever call ME? I doubt it.

 

[joefyffe]

The problem is that there are a lot of fuzzy areas.
We should avoid stating positions for or against aby particular office seeker or political party.

We should not give our opinion about particular office holders, pro or con.

But, that being said, there are things that are considered by Congress that affect us both as individuals and as business folks.

For instance, there is under consideration introducing legislation that would force all internet sellers to collect sales taxes for the buyers state. There are quite a few states that would like that to happen.

42 of the 50 states have sales taxes and they are all different.

If that legislation is introduced should we have to "pass" on discussing it because it is "politics"?

I think before a thread is stopped a common sense look should be taken, a lot of threads if they don't actually provoke intense debate should just be left alone.

GOOD POINT!

 

[B727phixer]

+1 do away with casual conversation forum

Why can't you do that for yourself...there are dozens of forums that for one reason or another I never look at. Just don't read it. Seems pretty simple to me.

Smitty...I was simply responding to Curtis and his request for "what is or is not political...seems to be a touchy subject, this would solve the problem if we focused on pen making.

 

[Russianwolf]

Some folks just got tired of the new way things are being done here.

Did any of these people ever call ME? I doubt it.

Jeff, this is an odd statement.

I was once asked by a manager to leave a store when I asked for change for a $10 bill (I think he thought I was my brother who he had history with). I didn't call the owner, I just stopped doing business there.

Does it matter if they contacted you or not? If Gary is right they are gone. They may have spoken to your "Managers".

 

[David Keller]

This site continues to amaze me... I keep coming back because I enjoy making pens and seeing the wonderful work that others do. I've developed some friendships on the forum, and I consider the site to be an asset to my development as a turner.

With that said, I have a serious suspicion that there are a number of members here that need to grow up. If that statement offends you, you're very likely to be one of the members to which I'm referring. IMO, this site does not exist to complete the perfect world in which any of us might wish to live. If your personal Xandadu is disrupted by a thread or post on a pen turning site, you've got some serious issues that go way beyond the ability of any moderator. Not everyone agrees with you... Not everyone shares your same beliefs... That's one of the things that makes life interesting.

Finally, I don't believe anyone has a right to post on this site. It's a privilege to be able to communicate with people who share a hobby that you enjoy. From my perspective, I fully support the moderators decisions to delete/lock/ban at their every whim even if that means this is my last post.

I firmly believe that everybody needs to cinch of their big girl/big boy panties, and get on with life. End of sermon.

 

[Gin N' Tonic]

Some folks just got tired of the new way things are being done here.

Did any of these people ever call ME? I doubt it.

What's your phone number? I'll give you an earfull ! :wink:

 

[WIDirt]

This site continues to amaze me... I keep coming back because I enjoy making pens and seeing the wonderful work that others do. I've developed some friendships on the forum, and I consider the site to be an asset to my development as a turner.

With that said, I have a serious suspicion that there are a number of members here that need to grow up. If that statement offends you, you're very likely to be one of the members to which I'm referring. IMO, this site does not exist to complete the perfect world in which any of us might wish to live. If your personal Xandadu is disrupted by a thread or post on a pen turning site, you've got some serious issues that go way beyond the ability of any moderator. Not everyone agrees with you... Not everyone shares your same beliefs... That's one of the things that makes life interesting.

Finally, I don't believe anyone has a right to post on this site. It's a privilege to be able to communicate with people who share a hobby that you enjoy. From my perspective, I fully support the moderators decisions to delete/lock/ban at their every whim even if that means this is my last post.

I firmly believe that everybody needs to cinch of their big girl/big boy panties, and get on with life. End of sermon.

This has to be the best statement I have read in this entirely over-debated subject. So you don't agree. I don't agree. They don't agree. Welcome to the human condition! This is a pen making forum, First, Last, and Always. Block the threads you don't like and get on with your lives.....

 

[MesquiteMan]

Friends...please...

Let's get this back to the original questions I asked for input on. In this thread I am not interested in people being insulted, what forums should or should not be here, whether or not politics should be allowed on IAP, whether or not we are doing a good job moderating, etc. I really just wanted opinions on what you think constitutes political discussion.

Here is a definition form an online dictionary.

po·lit·i·cal (p

-l

t

-k

l)adj.1. Of, relating to, or dealing with the structure or affairs of government, politics, or the state.
2. Relating to, involving, or characteristic of politics or politicians: "Calling a meeting is a political act in itself" (Daniel Goleman).
3. Relating to or involving acts regarded as damaging to a government or state: political crimes.
4. Interested or active in politics: I'm not a very political person.
5. Having or influenced by partisan interests: The court should never become a political institution.
6. Based on or motivated by partisan or self-serving objectives: a purely political decision.

 

[tbroye]

I know what Scotomas is. Learned a new word and now I know a new medical issue to spring on my Doctor. I will leave it up to the mods to decide what is and what isn't. It does seem lately that they seem to have a hair trigger for closing or deleting a thread. Maybe in these time thats what is needed. Good luck guys.

 

[Smitty37]

Yup

I heading to the Jack Daniel's Distillery this weekend. I usually go there to buy barrels to cut up for everyone. This time I may just have to buy some real Jack. I need a drink. AND I HAVEN'T HAD A DRINK IN 21 YEARS.

Well you haven't missed much..I have a beer or two a year just to remind myself how bad that stuff really tastes.

 

[Pioneerpens]

• What constitutes a political DISCUSSION? POLITICS
• Does it need to be partisan to be considered political? NO
• Are jokes and comments about any country's government considered political discussion even if they are not partisan? YES
• Are statements/commentary about a country's government considered political? YES

 

[Smitty37]

I agree

If I am correctly reading between the lines (and if I'm wrong it won't be the first time) These are two of the threads being alluded to in the original post (one by me).

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=70701&highlight=economy

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=70437&highlight=economy

Neither weren't exactly political as both were satirical comments on fixing the ailing economy. No parties were mentioned, no politicians (unless you count a dead one) were mentioned. I wouldn't expect either to lead into an actual discussion of the merits of the "plans" since they are both so far fetched.

Should posts of this type be banned?

No...I don't think either is really political and did not invite political discussion just talk about the government and unless we have a congressman or two as members here no one would have taken an opposing side. Shoot, there is no opposing side.

 

[Jmhoff10500]

I think we should go wiht the "18" rule, anything i cant understand as an 18 year old shouldnt be mentioned...

Which means the only things political you can post is:

Anything about cute girls in office
Anything about how school days need to be shorter to "save money":wink:
Why the state takes so much money from my hard earned pay check (maybe we should avoid that too)
And or anything having to do with how the presidents dogs have their own facebook/cellphones... Other than that, no go!

But in all seriousness, I think if it gets "Triangled" 3 times or more it should be deleted or locked because if one or two people report it, it might just be a personal preference, but if three or more people report it, its probably a pretty avoidable subject... That way the people can decide what goes and what stays and the moderators don't have to be the bad guys cause they are just following the "Rule of 3"...

Or some system like that...

 

[Smitty37]

I understand.

+1 do away with casual conversation forum

Why can't you do that for yourself...there are dozens of forums that for one reason or another I never look at. Just don't read it. Seems pretty simple to me.

Smitty...I was simply responding to Curtis and his request for "what is or is not political...seems to be a touchy subject, this would solve the problem if we focused on pen making.

I'm sure you were and my response was intended more for everyone than you in particular. If the casual conversation forum is too political for folks who want to concentrate on pen making they can just not read it.

 

[DCBluesman]

Why do the few think they need to change the forum to suit their needs when the mission of the site was decided by the founders?

Mission Statement:

The International Association of Penturners (IAP) is an organization that recognizes pen making as a craft with unique and distinctive character. Pen making encompasses a vast array of techniques, materials, technical knowledge, and novel approaches to produce a functional, aesthetically appealing writing instrument. The goal of the IAP is to give pen makers a place to enhance their skills, share experiences, and promote the art of pen making.

If you want to discuss other things with people you find interesting, take it private. Is that so hard to understand?

 

[ericw95]

a) having political or religious references in there signatures
b) having prayer requests

Now I'm not against either of these things,.

Other posts go in the gray area and has been stated, this is a pen turning forum. Now if someone wants to get their as (oops can't use that word or I may get reported) er butt up in the air and leave because their post was deleted/locked, they need to grow up. This is to be a civil forum and the mods do a tremendous job, lose-lose, but they do the best within the rules.

If you don't like the rules and the way they are enforced, then volunteer to be a moderator and do a better job then the saints we have doing it now.

Thanks mods for are you do.

 

[Russianwolf]

a) having political or religious references in there signatures
b) having prayer requests

Now I'm not against either of these things,.

Other posts go in the gray area and has been stated, this is a pen turning forum. Now if someone wants to get their as (oops can't use that word or I may get reported) er butt up in the air and leave because their post was deleted/locked, they need to grow up. This is to be a civil forum and the mods do a tremendous job, lose-lose, but they do the best within the rules.

If you don't like the rules and the way they are enforced, then volunteer to be a moderator and do a better job then the saints we have doing it now.

Thanks mods for are you do.

Okay, I don't get it.

This has what to do with what you quoted?