two of the posts have several statements I would like to comment on.
I will copy and past the portions of the posts I am refering to.
I know that a whole thread of criticism existed about the program as a whole, and many of the comments were about the "Grand Master", including comments by me.
I am very awaire of the previous comments. I as also very awaire of the overwhelming support of the endorsment program. as this vote is indicating exists then and even now.
I still think given that there was strong concern that the requirements for the "Grand Master Penturner" are not skill specific
this level was intentionally non skill specific. it is focused on service to the penturning community. recently I have seen comment after comment about how someone has joined this group, learned so much in such a short time, how much there skill has improved, etc. this is only possible due to those that already can, being willing to pass on there knowledge and incouragment. whatever you get here came freely. and it should also be given freely. that is at least my thinking when helping write this endorsment. I do think there are other things that can be considered along this line.
Skill is addressed in the proceeding endorments.
with the skills that are addressed in the other endorsment. what would you suggest be added to the grand master in the way of Skill requirments?
the board should have asked for input from the membership which has grown significantly since the by-laws were written.
This is exactly what this vote is. it was also taken to the group in discussions.
exactly what you are saying should have happened, is what happened and is what is happening. you either don't accept the method as good enough, or are not satisfied with the results I am not sure which. Not getting your way does not mean we did not follow these steps. I realize you are strong in your opinion. I am strong in mine as well. and neither of us are getting it our way. When I read this paragraph I get the picture of the intire membership haveing a say in every point in the endorsment program, and the by-laws even. this would have been an impossibility. this is why a committee was formed to write them in the first place.
and once again. whatever that committee did to consult the group as a whole was obviously well done. regardless of the growth of the group. it is still showing the quality of finding that medium ground.
the board should have asked for input from the membership which has grown significantly since the by-laws were written. I am a strong opponent of lets do it quick damned be the consequences approach to management
Drew, to be honest it is stament like this that cause me to just want to drop the discussion with you and consider you an antagonist. I know better from past experiences. So allow me to explain.
You claim we are moving to fast consequences be dammed immeditely after pointing out that the group has already changed to much for any of this to be relevant. just what do you propose be done within those perameters?
in effect you are saying we are doing this to fast and that is not fast enough.
in fact you are very wrong. the thinking that the group has changed significantly falls apart when you look at the results of this vote so far. also the by-laws where a very long time in being written. and the endorsment program was a significant portion of that time.
you continue to stress that the board should have consulted the membership in one way or anouther. again I will point out. the Board did not write these. the board did not exist when they where written, so I fail to see how the board could have taken it to the members. It is the By-Law Committee that these comments should be directed to.
Many people are voting in favor of the Skill Recognition Program because they plan to use it for marketing purposes for their pens
How would you know why people are voting? do you have messages you can point out that show this? have you had e-mail conversations with them?
phone conversations? I have missed whatever indicates this to you.
If this is simply out of your gut thinking, here is mine, I think the group just likes checking boxes and got all excited about anouther box to check. and then there is always the thrill of getting to see the pretty gold bars that say something about something on this group. but who cares about all those details. I can guess all day long. but that is not what the committee did. they went out and got a since of what the group was really wanting. I do not think i have seen one comment from anyone at any time that did not stand against the use of the endorsment program as a tool to promote the sales of there pens. across the board this has been the stance of this group. are there individuals that will anyway. most likely. the Consensus of this group tells me it will be addressed and is not the intent of the endorsment program. I will ad my thinking on this issue. are we going to be concerned that someone will use a Finish they discoverd here to promote the products. or an outright design for a pen, or anything else they gained from this group. lastly, I have never seen anyone blatantly or consistantly take advantage of anything this group does. I do not think that the endorsment program is going to have such power over the members of this group that they cannot resist taking advantage of such an opportunity. I have had many interactions with penturnes as a whole, in trading, selling, freedom of there advice and ideas. not only as a group but to a person. I have found them more than honest. they will pay more if they even suspect you would come up short. they give freely, and they will make sure things turn out right. they will send nore than you bought. they will worry that you will not be happy or didn't get what you expected. and they will praise you for every little thing you didn't even realize you did. I'm sorry but I don't think I will be getting worried about them taking advantage any time soon.
I do alot to help this group be what I see it can be, that I want it to be. this is not the only group I belong to. I belong to Music groups, gardening groups, church groups, and many others. It is this group that I choose to pour myself heart and soul into. Why? because of the nature of it's members. this group and others like it are friendly, giving and I can trust them. across the board and I have never come across an exception. Arguments yes, but that only shows that these things matter.
I will take someone that cares enough to get upset over the ones that don't care at all any day.
I do not expect we will agree on this issue. but much of what you say should have happened, did happen, Is happening.
as for your point #3. the whole thing.
I get lost while trying to read it. it sort of has a weaving in on itself effect for me. making it hard to decifer just what you re saying.
so I will write what i get from it.
If charity is important why is it not incouraged in the other levels as well.
Good question. My first thought on this is that it has to be learned to be taught. but htis only covers teaching and demonstrations. as far as the giving of pens. you are right anyone that can make a pen can also give them away. the previous endorsments are focused on the development of penturning skills. the master level is focused on returning what you got to the community. this is why I can see that charity got lumped into this last one. in counter argument. the last endorsment will be known to anyone before they ever start the program. the final endorsment is not somehting you will achive by focusing on it at the end of the rest. it is something you will achieve along the way. it has more to do with your nature than your skill.
as a writer of the endorsment program. I think we struck the best ground with this endorsment than any other. for what we where trying to develop.
It is not to easy, it is not to hard, and I don't think you could achieve it without really having the qualities I had in mind.