Vote: By-Law Ammendment

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Trying to stay away from this thread, about to fail that task, but definately not agreeing with some of what is being said...first all, let me say, that I voted _for_ this "Skill Recognition Program"...and that I may or maynot participate..I will participate if we can make this a _fun_ thing to do.

There will be people new to 'pen' turning, but who may have been turning other items for all their lives...how long will it take for them to learn to turn a pen and gain another level of skill recgonition....and their will be people new to turning never having turned a piece of wood before....people who have already turned hundreds of pens and those who cant wait to turn their first....my point is that the skill recognition should _only_ be used as some form of recognizing those that wish to judge where they started and where they want to be.

My wife still has the first pen I turned a year ago, and when I sold my first hundred dollar pen just a couple of weeks ago, she brought it out to show me, and asked what I was going to do for next.

At this time, my life is way to busy to consider some form of club officer...there just isn't time, and any of those positions require numerous hours..and there have been chances to become a club officer in the local club because not many people with that postion _because of_ the huge amount of time required.

I suggestion maybe to consider (or reconsider) though, is the name of the Grand Master Pernturning Poobah. Since this position is really more about helping other people and/or management, and is really the first level of same, maybe it should be renamed something like "apprentice"...or something else that signifies the lower level of managing instead of the higher level of turning.

Just my nickle back,
JohnPayton
 
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two of the posts have several statements I would like to comment on.
I will copy and past the portions of the posts I am refering to.

I know that a whole thread of criticism existed about the program as a whole, and many of the comments were about the "Grand Master", including comments by me.

I am very awaire of the previous comments. I as also very awaire of the overwhelming support of the endorsment program. as this vote is indicating exists then and even now.

I still think given that there was strong concern that the requirements for the "Grand Master Penturner" are not skill specific

this level was intentionally non skill specific. it is focused on service to the penturning community. recently I have seen comment after comment about how someone has joined this group, learned so much in such a short time, how much there skill has improved, etc. this is only possible due to those that already can, being willing to pass on there knowledge and incouragment. whatever you get here came freely. and it should also be given freely. that is at least my thinking when helping write this endorsment. I do think there are other things that can be considered along this line.
Skill is addressed in the proceeding endorments.
with the skills that are addressed in the other endorsment. what would you suggest be added to the grand master in the way of Skill requirments?

the board should have asked for input from the membership which has grown significantly since the by-laws were written.

This is exactly what this vote is. it was also taken to the group in discussions.
exactly what you are saying should have happened, is what happened and is what is happening. you either don't accept the method as good enough, or are not satisfied with the results I am not sure which. Not getting your way does not mean we did not follow these steps. I realize you are strong in your opinion. I am strong in mine as well. and neither of us are getting it our way. When I read this paragraph I get the picture of the intire membership haveing a say in every point in the endorsment program, and the by-laws even. this would have been an impossibility. this is why a committee was formed to write them in the first place.
and once again. whatever that committee did to consult the group as a whole was obviously well done. regardless of the growth of the group. it is still showing the quality of finding that medium ground.

the board should have asked for input from the membership which has grown significantly since the by-laws were written. I am a strong opponent of lets do it quick damned be the consequences approach to management

Drew, to be honest it is stament like this that cause me to just want to drop the discussion with you and consider you an antagonist. I know better from past experiences. So allow me to explain.
You claim we are moving to fast consequences be dammed immeditely after pointing out that the group has already changed to much for any of this to be relevant. just what do you propose be done within those perameters?
in effect you are saying we are doing this to fast and that is not fast enough.
in fact you are very wrong. the thinking that the group has changed significantly falls apart when you look at the results of this vote so far. also the by-laws where a very long time in being written. and the endorsment program was a significant portion of that time.
you continue to stress that the board should have consulted the membership in one way or anouther. again I will point out. the Board did not write these. the board did not exist when they where written, so I fail to see how the board could have taken it to the members. It is the By-Law Committee that these comments should be directed to.

Many people are voting in favor of the Skill Recognition Program because they plan to use it for marketing purposes for their pens

How would you know why people are voting? do you have messages you can point out that show this? have you had e-mail conversations with them?
phone conversations? I have missed whatever indicates this to you.
If this is simply out of your gut thinking, here is mine, I think the group just likes checking boxes and got all excited about anouther box to check. and then there is always the thrill of getting to see the pretty gold bars that say something about something on this group. but who cares about all those details. I can guess all day long. but that is not what the committee did. they went out and got a since of what the group was really wanting. I do not think i have seen one comment from anyone at any time that did not stand against the use of the endorsment program as a tool to promote the sales of there pens. across the board this has been the stance of this group. are there individuals that will anyway. most likely. the Consensus of this group tells me it will be addressed and is not the intent of the endorsment program. I will ad my thinking on this issue. are we going to be concerned that someone will use a Finish they discoverd here to promote the products. or an outright design for a pen, or anything else they gained from this group. lastly, I have never seen anyone blatantly or consistantly take advantage of anything this group does. I do not think that the endorsment program is going to have such power over the members of this group that they cannot resist taking advantage of such an opportunity. I have had many interactions with penturnes as a whole, in trading, selling, freedom of there advice and ideas. not only as a group but to a person. I have found them more than honest. they will pay more if they even suspect you would come up short. they give freely, and they will make sure things turn out right. they will send nore than you bought. they will worry that you will not be happy or didn't get what you expected. and they will praise you for every little thing you didn't even realize you did. I'm sorry but I don't think I will be getting worried about them taking advantage any time soon.
I do alot to help this group be what I see it can be, that I want it to be. this is not the only group I belong to. I belong to Music groups, gardening groups, church groups, and many others. It is this group that I choose to pour myself heart and soul into. Why? because of the nature of it's members. this group and others like it are friendly, giving and I can trust them. across the board and I have never come across an exception. Arguments yes, but that only shows that these things matter.
I will take someone that cares enough to get upset over the ones that don't care at all any day.
I do not expect we will agree on this issue. but much of what you say should have happened, did happen, Is happening.
as for your point #3. the whole thing.
I get lost while trying to read it. it sort of has a weaving in on itself effect for me. making it hard to decifer just what you re saying.
so I will write what i get from it.
If charity is important why is it not incouraged in the other levels as well.
Good question. My first thought on this is that it has to be learned to be taught. but htis only covers teaching and demonstrations. as far as the giving of pens. you are right anyone that can make a pen can also give them away. the previous endorsments are focused on the development of penturning skills. the master level is focused on returning what you got to the community. this is why I can see that charity got lumped into this last one. in counter argument. the last endorsment will be known to anyone before they ever start the program. the final endorsment is not somehting you will achive by focusing on it at the end of the rest. it is something you will achieve along the way. it has more to do with your nature than your skill.
as a writer of the endorsment program. I think we struck the best ground with this endorsment than any other. for what we where trying to develop.
It is not to easy, it is not to hard, and I don't think you could achieve it without really having the qualities I had in mind.
 
The excellent point about additional qualifications for international equivalents of AAW will be addressed by the Board and the review committee if the proposal passes. We will try to be more diligent in losing our US-centricity. Please be patient as old habits die hard. [8D]
 
If you knew nothing about penturning and you heard the term "Grand Master Penturner" what would you think that it refered to.

Someone who donates most of his/her free time to helping others?

Someone who is a extremely talented pen crafter?

Wayne
 
As one of the Committee that wrote the By-Laws, I would like to add my perspective on the Skill Recognition Program, the title of Grand Master, and some of the other questions that are now being raised. I assure everyone that this is not the first time that these same issues have been discussed, nor will it be the last.

In the beginning, I was ambivalent about any "Program" because I would choose not to participate. However, I did the same thing as Lou. I read all of the messages that had been posted on the topic. One thing was clear. The majority of the membership who cared enough to voice an opinion were in favor of some type of "program". The result is the best effort of the By-Laws Committee, not the Board of Directors.

A "self-serving" Board? We all had our chance at running for the Board. I recognize only 2 of the Board as being members of that committee, and I would prefer to believe that they were elected because of their active presence on the forums, rather than any self-serving personal motives. Several Board members were unknown to me at the time we wrote the ByLaws, but they were rather vocal in their questioning of them after they were published.

I have never been concerned about someone using a skill level title (or whatever we call it), for commercial or self serving purposes. While our intention was that the "Program" would not be used for selling a product or personal services, it is a fact of life that some people will use them for those purposes. The only way to prevent such personal use of title or status is to not have a "Program".

Names are important, and I have always had a problem with what this "Program" would be called. In the beginning, it was described as a "Merit Badge", but that didn't work for me. I preferred something more professional, and not associated with the Boy Scouts. The By-Laws Committee discussed a lot of names for the program. "Endorsement" was one of them that was rejected because some believed it implied the wrong concept. As the compiler of the draft copy of the by-laws, I used "Skill Recognition" for lack of a better title. Anyone not liking the name has me to blame, not the Board of Directors. I still don't see any suggestions for a better name.

On the title of "Grand Master"....
Every organization needs some way of giving recognition for services above and beyond those of membership or skills. How do we recognize the services of a Scott Greaves (to use a name), without whose efforts the IAP wouldn't exist, and we wouldn't be having this discussion? The question then becomes one of how this should be done. Is it done through acceptance and acclamation by a self-appointed group of "Elders" as is done by the Pen Makers Guild, by an elected Board of Directors, or are there stated minimum standards for this achievement?

It follows that we can question whether these standards are realistic, or that they should even be a part of the "Skill Recognition Program"? My answer to that is that I prefer a set of stated standards over an arbitrary award. Where should they be placed in the By-Laws? Since one of those standards for the "Grand Master" is that they have demonstrated their ability to make a pen, placing it as a part of the "Program" was the logical choice. Someone else may disagree.

Regarding a "majority of the membership".....
While this is a nice concept, the fact of life is that the majority doesn't give a damn.

The By-Laws Committee had a lot of discussion on whether decisions should be a "majority of the membership" or some minimum number of voting members to validate an election. There was never a concensus on this issue among the Committee members. I looked at the Membership List, saw the number of those posting more than 1 or 2 messages on the forums, and then chose to use "majority of those voting" when I wrote the draft copy of the By-Laws. The numbers voting in these elections has proven that this was the proper choice of words.

While there may be 800 on the Membership List, there are less than 100 who care enough to vote. The IAP would not exist today if we had depended on a "majority of the membership".

This is one persons opinion. Feel free to disagree.
 
Well stated, Russ !

Of course, "self-appointed group of "Elders" is not what we want. This is one reason for the existence of IAP. We have ELECTED officers. Majority rules. Majority of those who choose to participate.

Setting realistic standards for Grand Master seems to be the key issue. I don't like the way some opinions have been stated. Obviously, not everyone will want, or even be able to reach this level.

My main concern is that some of the rules limit eligibility of those who would otherwise be qualified. Please understand that, AAW affiliation or not, this is an INTERNATIONAL group by definition. Serving as an officer of the AAW is a stumbling block for those living in other parts of the world. This is just one example. I believe this issue is being addressed by the Board at this time.

Competence at the highest level is what Master Penmaker is about. I understand that to get to Grand Master, a person will have to do some service, like teaching, writing, service, etc. Russ, you have done a lot of that already !

Limitations on who might achieve this level are unfair. Few will achieve it, but anybody who is willing to do what is needed should have a fair chance. Who is to say that teaching on TV is less important than teaching at a local meeting? Writing a book less important than an AAW article? See what I mean? The intent of a rule cannot always cover all bases.

Respectfully submitted as my freely expressed OPINION.
 
Hi Russ,

I have yet to respond to any of the forum here just to see what people would think. Although a supporter of the "program", I see that it could incorporate many problems that will need to be addressed. You have eloquently described them in detail. Your opinion is well respected here and should be considered and pondered by all.

My greatest fear for this program has always been "the good old boys syndrome" where others of the "elite" judge others. Considering my run in's with the Guild and the lack strict of guidelines, this program will have to be modified on the run many times to remove these problems. Judging is opinion, and there are those that have different standards that differ from the others (hense the problems with the guild) I submitted a pen to the Guild that fulfilled the guidelines and was rejected because they "didn't like the style". Getting the judging down will be the hardest item and to standardize the "opinions". It may not be possible, but I do think that we should give it a try.

I chose not to run for the board as I am currently swamped with life and wouldn't be able to offer my services to the level required (just to let you know why I wasn't on the ballot).
 
Drew, I think you have me confused with someone else...: "I'm sorry I guess you didn't read the post by YoYoSpin that said the board reviewed past posts and this is the first time anyone has ever expressed dissatisfaction..." The tone of this whole discussion makes me very sad.
 
I haven't voted on this yet, but I'm probably going to vote for it. I do share some of the reservations with the "Grand Master" mentioned previously, but I don't see them as complete show-stoppers. Since I don't like complaining without making suggestions when possible, here are a few things that came to mind.
<ol type="1">
[*]Most of the concerns seem to center around the criteria related to board and/or officer participation. Perhaps collapsing points 4, 5, and 6 into a single criteria would help. Write the single criteria to be nation-neutral. Perhaps drop the requirement that the local club would have to be affiliated with a nationally recognized group, at least for members from nations having no national group.<br />
[*]If 4, 5, and 6 remain separate, at add a clarification that you cannot count the same term of office for more meeting more than one criteria. For example if serving on the IAP board makes you a member of the AAW board, you could count your first term as fulfilling point 4 and only if reelected use the second term to fulfill point 5.<br />
[*]As suggested by another member, add a criteria for contributing a new Invention (including a new Technique) to the craft.<br />
[*]The publishing requirements are OK, but should perhaps either be combined into a single criteria or clarified that the articles must be unique. If you have two articles published in a magazine that ALSO publishes them on their web site, you can count them as one or the other, but not both.<br />
[*]Some criteria recognizing "mentoring" or other penturning community contributions. For example someone who frequently posts on the forum helping others and is generally recognized by the membership as an outstanding source of help. I've seen something like this on another forum, though I can't remember which. Members could nominate someone as a mentor (or something similar) and either the board or membership would vote on bestowing that standing. This would be a good way for someone who is perhaps handicapped or otherwise would have difficulty doing demonstrations to have their contributions recognized. Hope that makes some sense.<br />
</ol id="1">
Generally I don't have any problem with the intent of the program, nor with the idea that the top level should be difficult to obtain. But it shouldn't be impossible due to some geographic or physical constraint. 5 out of 8 criteria is OK too, but the criteria should be more diverse. As currently written, due to similarity and overlap, it feels more like 4 criteria than 8.

Two other minor comments on the wording describing the other levels. For the Pencrafter and Master Penturner levels it mentions obtaining "awards". I think "meeting criteria" would be a better phrasing. Also the naming seems a little inconsistent. From Penturner to Pencrafter to Master Penturner and up. Perhaps Penturner should only be used at the first level and all higher levels use Pencrafter.

Eddie
 
Russ...when things get real quiet for you tonight, should you happen to hear a pair of hands applauding, they will be mine. Thank you.
 
Eddie,
you have some very good points and suggestions. I believe this program has alot of adjustments to make before ti settles into anything that would be concidered complete. I am going to save a copy of your comments as well as those of Drew in order to refresh myself on what itmes need to be tweaked. or considerd for tweaking. the statments that not enough time has been spent on this issue are quite valid. not enough time has even elapsed yet. this time needs to be considered a portion of that tally. the comments are being heard. and these things will be taken under consideration. By the Board? I don't know, I for one hope not or plates are full. can the committe that Drew mentioned and desires to serve on still transpire. well I for one would hope that is the method it does get done. There is much to much to do to expect the board to come out with a draft that will satisfy everyone, or be totally void of errors. but the board exists to insure that the members will always have the ability to change what they do not like.
 
I'm not sure that opening up this box again will serve any useful purpose.

To steal a line from a famous quotation -
You can please most of the people most of the time, and some of the people some of the time. Trying to please all of the people all of the time will be a futile effort because there will always be those who are never pleased. You do the best you can, and move on.

Isn't it time to take what you have, and move on??
 
Russ,
I want to thank you for involving yourself in this. you are a great level mind. and you are right. I am not sure it isn't all just lending fire to the flame. I think you say best what has been on my mind from the start of this whole conversation. not all can be pleased.
 
Why not send pens in to be judged. Then you are taking the photography element out of it. After all, it is the pens being judged, why not see the pens?
 
Mac---even better than that.
Hey--- what if a person can not afford a computer---does that mean they can not be
-- the exalted.
And what about the homeless they may want to be exalted
 
Bill - Early in the discussions, I recall someone raised the possibility of examining the actual pens. The problem there is logistics, I think. Nobody is going to be happy with just one person's eyeballs on it, and sending it around to multiple evaluators would get expensive and time-consuming. I can't imagine that a committee of volunteer evaluators would have the stamina to deal with receiving, evaluating, and re-shipping what would likely be hundreds of pens.

I suppose that does require that one have a digital camera, but so many people own them these days that I'd bet someone without one could get a photo taken by a friend.
 
Gary - I know you're trying to make a point with "exalted", but it's just unnecessary gasoline on the fire in my opinion. I can tell you that nobody who has worked on this program at any point feels that it should convey any sort of status, fame, fortune, or other exalted position. It was supposed to be a fun component of education in the craft and advancement of skills.

Let me make one general comment, then I'll let you all have at it while I go back to tweaking the software to make this a more efficient and enjoyable place for you all to argue. [;)]

I'm really amazed that a simple idea for a fun thing to do has turned into such a mess. I remember discussing this with Scott and a couple others about a year ago. It went something like, "wouldn't it be fun to have some kind of awards for accomplishments in different areas of penturning." Let me say, folks, this is anything but fun right now.

My # 1 rule for success is to "use all the help you can get". In order for us to be successful in continuing to build a quality organization that will help us ALL improve our skills, we need your help! One form of help certainly is dissent for things you oppose, but the right way to leverage your position is to offer concrete suggestions on alternatives. Personal attacks don't move us forward, they only kick up a lot of dust that prevents us from seeing good solutions.

Please, let's continue this discussion. We're up to five pages on this topic, and I'd like to see five or fifty more pages of calm, respectful dialogue. Can I ask you all a personal favor? In exchange for the hundreds of hours I've put in to give us all a place to share what we know and learn from others, can we tone it down a couple notches? I won't ask for anything else for Christmas.
 
Originally posted by bnosie
<br />I understand that, and totally agree. I just would hate for somebody to "not make the grade" because they can't take a good picture.
Click to expand...
Absolutely! You make a great point, Bill. I remember failing a high school biology test because I could not draw some single cell blob. I knew what it was, I just can't draw!

I would hope that anyone evaluating a person's work would recognize a bad photo and work with that person to perhaps get another picture or somehow take the bad picture quality out of the equation.
 
Originally posted by bnosie
<br />I understand that, and totally agree. I just would hate for somebody to "not make the grade" because they can't take a good picture.
Click to expand...

Bill,

This is a great group of people here. I have no doubts, that if you can't get your hands on a digital camera, or a scanner that can do the job, ask for a bit of help, and someone will help you out. If you are willing to pay a few dollars for postage, someone will volunteer to help.
 
I suppose that does require that one have a digital camera,
Click to expand...
A digital camera isn't really a necessity .A regular camera with film will do .
With to-days technology all one has to do is have prints made and scan them into their computers . For those who don't have scanners , you could also take your film to a photo finisher that will copy the pics onto a disc . An awful lot of them offer this service now .
 
Bill,
I have seen this question come up in regard to other situations. such as contests and other evaluation situations. to a large extent being an inernet group we deal in pictures and words. so yes some interaction is going to require pictures abtained in some manner. the photographing your pens forum has some suggested methods, advice on getting good pictures with a digital camera s well as how to scan pens. but the bottom line is it adds one more thing to be learned or borrowed to the pile. of course there are many more reasons to tackle this issue than just the endorsment program. I know for me the desire to get a decent picture of my pens was to be able to show them off. I think this could be a consistant problem with first level though. at least having some available advice how to tackle it needs to be in place. I see new people all the time telling about there latest pen followed by a comment simular to. as soon as I can get a decent picture... the next would be as soon as I can figure out how to post this picture... close kin to this picture doesn't look the same on your sight as it does on my computer. Possibly some detailed instructions for anyone interested in starting the program. step by step as much s possible.
 
Originally posted by Kim
<br />So are you boys gonna build a club house and have a secret hand shake too?

hehe ;)
Click to expand...

You didn't say the secret password, which is why nobody responded to you.

Laugh at us if you wish, but if it wasn't for males forming groups to pursue a common goal, we wouldn't have wars, professional sports, soul murdering factories, or the Free Masons.

Wait a minute, I am helping you aren't I? OK, we are a silly bunch of hairy Ogre's, but when it comes to hooking up the stereo, building dwellings, killing animals for sustenance, and protecting our offspring, we have yet to be replaced by robotic facsimiles. [;)]

Most of us folks do not fall into totally male or female stereotypes. More and more, males are becoming nurturer's, and females are doing some of the traditionally male tasks.

Would you like to talk about psychology/sociology, and it's relevance to the skill recognition program? Or were you just trying to be a smarty pants?

You obviously are very bright, and have a lot to offer, you should post your thoughts a bit more often. Just a thought.
 
I guess, from what I see and read, that the four (it is four, isn't it) ranks of progression are fixed.

That being said. Why not just two classes of membership here. One you join by logging on and filling out the form. Two you become "Accomplished Pen Turner". You do that by submitting four different pens, Slimline, American Flat Top, European Round Top and Cigar. Or perhaps throw in a screw cap style in there somewhere. By submitting those four pens made in a workman like manner you have shown that you can perform the steps necessary to make pens.

Beyond that, if a member makes it as one out of, hummmm....something like 800 members now? Five board members? A member makes it to the board, performs heroic acts of charity, gets published in the annals of woodworking and so on then that person and his or her accomplishments is submitted to the board and they can award a "Grand Old Man or Woman of Pen Turning", print out a nice certificate, give some prizes that our suppliers may furnish and gets his name entered in the "Roll Call of Great Pen Turners".

That way we are not creating classes of people here, just ones that want to belong and ones that want to submit proof of four pens. Extraordinary accomplishments are then recognized in another manner.
 
I have to agree with Jeff here.

How did something that seemed so simple get so complicated??

And the first pen or photo has yet to be submitted and certified, or whatever is supposed to happen to it.

Why not just get on with "the program" and see how it works.
 
I have the start of an idea that may have some possibilities. First give the some additional meaning by actually submitting a pen with say a twenty dollar entry fee and this fee would cover the cost of mailing it around to three or four judges. Second this would be an title that could actually be something that could be used in marketing our products like has been talked about. With so much of the post office available on line it mould not take much for a few people to do something like this.

It seems like there are several people who would like some kind of recognition or title to give credence to their work.

This entry fee would be $3.85 dollars per judge just to cover the cost of Priority mailing to the next judge. I'm not positive but we may be able to set something up with a paypal account that the entrent would pay the fee into and the judges would then pay for the postage from the account.

We could have judging peramiters set up as guide lines for the judges so that each pen is judged equally and fairly.

Any input?

Wayne
 
Up to now, I have followed one of my rules in life: "It is better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak up and remove all
doubt". So, now that I am speaking up, we'll see where I stand. I have found this discussion very interesting to this point. I should remind people that one of the problems with e-mail is that it is impersonal and people may not truly get the tone of your message. It can be easy to misconstrue the writer's tone. I would like to relate why I went into woodworking. I chose this as a hobby and subsequently, I got involved in making pens. After a short period of time, I had accumulated a number of pens. My wife asked me what I was going to do with them - look at them? I replied yes but soon realized that this hobby is expensive and therefore reluctantly started selling them. I have sold alot of them - over 60 this past two months alone. The selling of my pens, allows me to buy more woodworking supplies so that I can continue with my hobby. The title of pen maker, crafter or whatever means little to me. To give you an example, I was a Vice-Principal but chose to go back into the classroom because I loved teaching kids more than having the title of Vice-Principal. Let's not get too hung up on titles. Don't forget the reason you woodwork and make pens - the love and joy and pleasure you hopefully get from it. I am not sure if I will submit my work for a title - maybe yes, maybe no. That is not why I joined this site. I joined to share and find out information. I thought about sending a pen of mine into another site that gives people titles for their work and then I thought more and realized that I could really care less what someone else thinks of my work - it is what I think of my work that counts (and how it makes me feel). I don't know about some of you, but I can spend lots of time in my work shop looking at blanks and just imagining what they will some day look like. Don't forget why you woodwork - I do it for self-fullfillment and relaxation.
 
Hi Wayne,

I thinkyour idea has merit. If we want a certification program that means anything at all, we would need to see the pen, and not just a picture. Those seeking recognition under the certification would be willing to pay the postage expense to have thier pens evaluated.

This is assuming the IAP wants to get into a certification program. I'm not saying we don't, but I'm not saying we do, either! To tell the truth, the Skill Recognition Program is before the membership now only because there was a number of requests for something like this. If it is a true certification program that members want, I believe we could work on something like this.

This organization is a reflection of it's membership. It would have been much easier for Jeff and I to just retain control and design it the way we wanted it. But no matter how "broad-minded" we are, we couldn't anticipate, much less understand everyone's interests. That's why we felt there needed to be an organization, run by members who are chosen by other members, and that decisions are made in full view of everyone. It's also why Jeff and I decided not to run for President, because the IAP needed to be run as a democracy, not by a beneficient dictator.

This whole issue, and the discussions it has generated, are a perfect example of why we needed to do this. As wonderful as I am (I'm really not all that wonderful - ask my Wife!) I cannot see everything. The only reason we even started thinking in the direction of a program such as this is because Tim Dalieden suggested early on that it might be a good thing. And it is the By-Law committee that really hammered it together. Is it perfect? No. But it is a workable start. Probably the worst thing about it is that it is being formulated as an ammendment to the by-laws, which will make it difficult to fine tune it as time goes on.

If the membership wants to defeat this proposal as an ammendment, but they do want some kind of program, it would be our obligation as the Board of Directors to try to formulate something that would be acceptable to the membership. Your idea of a real certification program is a good one, and I think it could work. But we're not at a point where we can add it to the proposal that is up for a vote now. Lets finish this issue first, and then please don't let me forget to work on your proposal soon.

Scott.
 
Originally posted by Scott
<br /> The only reason we even started thinking in the direction of a program such as this is because Tim Dalieden suggested early on that it might be a good thing. And it is the By-Law committee that really hammered it together. Is it perfect? No. But it is a workable start.
Scott.
Click to expand...

Actually, my idea was much simpler. Show you can make a decent pen, and you get to use the LOGO. I admit that this idea is basically stolen from the PMG, but with much lower standards. It was Jeff that thought the various levels of accomplishment might be fun. After some thought, I agreed.

Anyway, so many people have worked so hard on this thing, it would be a shame if it ended up in the trash.

I agree with Russ, turn the key, and see if it runs. It may need some tweaking, or maybe not. It may fall apart, but you will never know until you try.
 
I've been away for a while due to a cross-country move and a hectic schedule at work and I have to say I was a bit surprised to see a thread run this long and have a point beat about this much. It seems very simple to me: If you are interested in a title and want the marketing gimmick you should participate in the program. If you just want to turn pens and talk about turning pens participate in the forum but not the program.

I've personally posted a lot of pics of my pens and have sold a lot of pens. I don't believe that having a title after my name is going to make me a better penturner. It will just force me to redo my business cards. I do this because I love doing it and it is a great way to relieve the stress of my job. Someone else has probably already said this or something similar but I must have missed it in the 80+ posts on this topic.
 
I've been on the road and away from the internet since Monday and I return to read the new posts and WOW!. Let me catch up on the topics and maybe I'll have something to say, or maybe it has all been said. We do have a lively group here.
Do a good turn daily!
Don
 
Well, I'll chime in. I've never felt intimidated about my penturning. I realize I'm not as proficient as others, am better than some, and never will be as good as many. That doesn't bother me at all or diminish my enjoyment of penturning.

As for titles, I don't need any. Others may desire them, but as I told a former boss, change my job title to jerk if you'd like to. As long as it pays more, I'll consider it a promotion. Titles don't mean as much as the enjoyment friends get when I make them a pen and the sincere thank you I get back when they receive it. Even if I were to get a title granted to me by this group, I doubt I would ever use it along with my name. It would simply be a means of gauging my skills improvement based on the judgement of others for whom I have profound respect.

With that in mind, I have voted for the ammendment and don't really care one way or the other if my vote is anonymous.

As for multiple voting, you can't prevent it in an online forum such as this one. There is nothing to prevent anyone from joining under multiple usernames, giving fictitious real names and voting multiple times. I can't see the value in concerning oneself about things over which they have no control.

Bob [8D]
 
DAM!
bumped into this thread too late.
For shame I'll never be a grand master!

Tim said:
"Anyway, so many people have worked so hard on this thing, it would be a shame if it ended up in the trash. "
why not,garbage is garbage.maybe you're right a better place would be the toilet.
 
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