MesquiteMan
Retired Head Moderator
Jerry, that is why we have a classified section.
Vendor Marketing
- Thread starter jeff
- Start date
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
- Status
Jerry, that is why we have a classified section.
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
phillywood
Member
I think having a separate forum would sounds nice. but, I am not getting all the bickering that's going on. OK, for instance, when we go to HF store or online store. You order something or buy it in person you have to take it home in most cases there is no sample for what's used for or any possibilities of what the tool would be used for then you bring the darn thing home and play with it, which in most cases it may work or not. what's wrong with the vendor putting on a pic of a pen of certain blank to show us how the finish work should look like and in case of most of them they even have a YouTube or tutorials how to use certain tools and blanks or etc.. I think it helps to see what your buying or even if it is within your expertise to try it or not. Plus these guys are not as big as HF or some of the big name companies. they are like you and me with little more investment. I don't see anything wrong putting a poll and asking if certain blank material would be desirable or not. If you don't think you can pay $50.00 for a blank then there's no sense of them carrying it. At the end we end up paying more by buying the more common items at a slightly higher price so the vendor can absorb the profit loss of them items they can not move.
If this new forum created then if a member doesn't want to go there then he/she won't. then that should leave the other forums clean from these old animosity boiling over and over again.
That was my$.02, but because of the economy I have to pich in a dime.:wink:
If this new forum created then if a member doesn't want to go there then he/she won't. then that should leave the other forums clean from these old animosity boiling over and over again.
That was my$.02, but because of the economy I have to pich in a dime.:wink:
dalemcginnis
Local Chapter Leader
I voted for the separate forum because it would be easier for me to see all the market research questions when I'm in the mood instead of having to look at every thread to see if it might be a market research one.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Which many people choose not to view. The personal preferences allow the classifieds to be "turned off", then they are very upset when certain handmade blanks have gone out of stock and they were not told they were coming IN stock.
Yet another "Catch 22"
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
MAYBE the right answer would be for us to post, "Visit Exotics on Facebook" and keep ALL the advertising where it is welcome.
(I really don't mean this to sound bitter, it's not meant that way, Jeff----maybe it would "please ALL the people ALL the time!!")
(I really don't mean this to sound bitter, it's not meant that way, Jeff----maybe it would "please ALL the people ALL the time!!")
GoodTurns
Member
I voted for a separate forum. PLEASE do show your new works in SOYP, just add a link to the research/classified posting for the sales and marketing info. Not only does this allow you to SHOW OFF YOUR PENS, it eliminates the numerous.."cool, will you be selling that?" posts that invariably follow a new idea! SOYP is for exactly what it's name implies, research and adverts belong elsewhere.
jskeen
Member
Ok, I'm going to try to keep this serious and respectful, as it's a direct answer to a question posed by someone who deserves a respectful answer. (FROM ALL OF US, BTW) I feel that market research by vendors, so that they can provide products to us in the most efficient manner (translated cheapest price) is one of the more important functions of this forum, right up there with answering questions for new turners to help them improve their craft, and providing feedback to us on our finished products to help us make more of what sells best, and less of what nobody likes. Restricting this function or impeding it's efficiency is self defeating at best, and at worst devolves into hurting the majority in a vain attempt to placate a loud obnoxious minority (sorta like the government.....oops, sorry Curtis 
We're all adults here, nobody forces us to read every post, and there is a very fine tool called the ignore setting to help us not see stuff from people we don't care to hear from. Plus, who really wants to spend even more time mediating "this post belongs in that other forum" arguments? If you don't like it, don't read it. If somebody decides to read something he don't like, and can't resist the impulse to pollute somebody elses thread with "I don't like this post" the rest of us can quite handily tell him to shut up and go read something else. No moderation needed.
Ok, I may have gotten a little less than respectful, but hey... It's all Jeff's fault, he pushed my buttons, I shouldn't have to put up with that in a forum that I am not obligated to do anything to support, and from which i am free to gather as much information as I want, while contributing nothing if I so choose. I mean really, he's just got to be violating some right of mine doing stuff like that. Let me call the ACLU. I know a judge who might just have an axe to grind. I feel so violated!!!
There, I said it, I feel better!
We're all adults here, nobody forces us to read every post, and there is a very fine tool called the ignore setting to help us not see stuff from people we don't care to hear from. Plus, who really wants to spend even more time mediating "this post belongs in that other forum" arguments? If you don't like it, don't read it. If somebody decides to read something he don't like, and can't resist the impulse to pollute somebody elses thread with "I don't like this post" the rest of us can quite handily tell him to shut up and go read something else. No moderation needed.
Ok, I may have gotten a little less than respectful, but hey... It's all Jeff's fault, he pushed my buttons, I shouldn't have to put up with that in a forum that I am not obligated to do anything to support, and from which i am free to gather as much information as I want, while contributing nothing if I so choose. I mean really, he's just got to be violating some right of mine doing stuff like that. Let me call the ACLU. I know a judge who might just have an axe to grind. I feel so violated!!!
There, I said it, I feel better!
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Gin N' Tonic
Member
Jeff,
You once told me it was your job to spot patterns in data. If you feel that you are getting "honest" feedback by stating your opinion in a poll then who am I to argue. I stand by what I said. The fastest way to shew an opinion poll is to state your opinion.
Gin N' Tonic
Member
I respect your opinion so please respect mine or put me on your ignore list. If you read Jeff's reply it would seem that he indeed state an opinion and if you read his post it's not hard to figure what his preference is.
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glycerine
Member
Alot of people are mentioning the SOYP. I don't think Jeff mentioned anything about that in his post. That's not what is in question here. The poll is about market research...
Gin N' Tonic
Member
You miss the point. I never said that he was not entitled to his own opinion. I did say the best way to skew an opinion poll is to give us your opinion up front.
You've already given the answer "because Jeff is the site owner"
witz1976
Member
I second this....
...and you are not allowed to bump in the classifieds? oops...sorry I think I did that once.
DurocShark
Member
I skipped 4 pages, sorry. Too tired to read it all.
A separate forum will get feedback from the few of us who have time to peruse all eleventy billion forums and sub forums and sub sub forums and such. Basically, a skewed slice of the Penturners.org user pie.
Of the options in the poll, I voted for "any". But I'd rather do it like this:
*Casual Conversation - General discussion of ideas. "If I made a tool that could make you coffee while carving perfect ropes, would you buy it?"
*SOYP - Completed PEN parts/blanks/etc
*Tools - Tools.
Basically put the post in the appropriate forum.
A separate forum will get feedback from the few of us who have time to peruse all eleventy billion forums and sub forums and sub sub forums and such. Basically, a skewed slice of the Penturners.org user pie.
Of the options in the poll, I voted for "any". But I'd rather do it like this:
*Casual Conversation - General discussion of ideas. "If I made a tool that could make you coffee while carving perfect ropes, would you buy it?"
*SOYP - Completed PEN parts/blanks/etc
*Tools - Tools.
Basically put the post in the appropriate forum.
nava1uni
Member
I have read all of the posts and toward the end I once again see some individuals getting into it about something. This seems to be occurring more frequently and the point is being lost. Either you want to see a specific forum or don't devoted to market research. this form of communication can leave a lot open to interpretation regarding tone and I am finding that some people appear to be taking it as argumentative and I frankly find it tiring. I want to say knock it off and I think that you might know who your are. It derails the original question and puts words into other people's mouth. I would like to continue to see questions about products and if that works better in a separate forum then let it be.
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mick
Member
I stand by what I said....Jeff stated NO opinion in his post. I think perhaps YOU are the one who needs to actually go back and read the post. I also stand by my earlier post...You are TRYING to cause problems.
1dweeb
Member
Let the vendors ask us what we want...It provides a valuable service to them and to us... My .02
Mark
Member
I believe "Market Research" has it's place and is a valuable tool for a vendor to have. I think maybe a sub-forum in the classifieds would be perfect for such activity. That way, those that do not wish to see it, can ignore it and those that want to support it can do so. IMHO.
traderdon55
Member
I have no problems with the way things have been being done but maybe a separate forum would shut some of the whiners up so that eveyone can just enjoy reading the posts.
Tony's Pens
Member
Will the results of the votes be posted when this poll ends.
JohnU
Member
Jeff, I appreciate your efforts to iron out a problem that most of us find... not a problem. Maybe Im too easy going, have a want to "get along with others" or maybe Ive learned at a young age how to respectfully disagree. I dont think theres one person here who can say they dont want to push the bar and exceed where others have left off. When we try, we learn. When others succeed we learn from them. Even with market research its often showing something off. I know when I see something new or spectacular here I have questions. It would be nice to see something new and not be restricted on what can or cant be posted with it. I say let the guys who want to share, share. Either way the questions will be asked. Its just easier for everyone if we can all read the questions and answers when it comes up at the same place, when one person brings it up and not through pm's or seperate forums. If a vendor wants input on an idea, create the forum page to ask. If someone wants to know where they can find a blank from a pen posted in the SOYP forum, let them tell. This place is fun. I hope we can keep it that way.
cnccutter
Member
I like being asked what I like and what I want.... if I dont like the question or pole I can always move on to the next topic. let the vendors alone
Erik
Erik
thewishman
Member
I like market research.
I don't like bickering.
I propose a separate forum for bickering - provided it can be ignored like the ignore user setting.
I don't like bickering.
I propose a separate forum for bickering - provided it can be ignored like the ignore user setting.
robutacion
Member
I have read every post of this thread and I can't but ask, what would this forum and many identical ones all over the world be, without those that are prepared to share...???
Asking what people want or presenting an idea or a new material, can only be positive, how do you thing we got to where we are now...???
Some members didn't know how to use the turning tools much less to turn a pen when they joined in, why do you thing that they did wanted to join...??? because they can ask the questions they feel like/have and someone will answer, allowing them to proceed to the next step of their new activity, hobby or not.
After some time, those same people have acquired the knowledge and experience to be in the position to give answers to other new members, many would call it "pay forwards". These same people have continued in their progress and development and certainly they are creating new materials and ways of handling them, the first thing they do is to come here and share with everyone.
Now, most of the times, selling was never planned, and regardless how much others do like the product, more often than not, these people will be happy to just do a few blanks for themselves and continue to try creating new stuff, while others, may decided to experiment with the idea and start making a few more than what he/she would ever use so, once again, they come up here and either share their intentions to produce, asking for possible interest or simply go ahead, get things done and them offer them for sale here for everyone's benefit...!
Yes, everyone's benefit because, in the end of the day, members will be able to see, know and buy products that would never be available in the first place, here or anyone else, if they didn't have the "freedom" to experiment, within the environment this forum offers to everyone.
Some members decide to go bigger and created a situation where many of his/hers and others work is put together to facilitate everyone's job. Some are small business some are bigger business, we are the ones to make them that way by what we purchase so, denying this simple principle to existent members and deny the opportunity to others new comers to have the same chance to learn and grow is, at the least, killing the very existence of this forum principals and a fundamental right everyone has, "exist and grow"...!
If having a separate "topic/forum", is what it takes to allow people to freely do the politically correct term "Market Research", let be it, even tough I could give a half dozen interpretations to this term as, they all mean the same, and all have the same objectives so, not being interested in the right terminologies, lets be a little more thankful and appreciative of these people existence big and small...!
Cheers
George
Asking what people want or presenting an idea or a new material, can only be positive, how do you thing we got to where we are now...???
Some members didn't know how to use the turning tools much less to turn a pen when they joined in, why do you thing that they did wanted to join...??? because they can ask the questions they feel like/have and someone will answer, allowing them to proceed to the next step of their new activity, hobby or not.
After some time, those same people have acquired the knowledge and experience to be in the position to give answers to other new members, many would call it "pay forwards". These same people have continued in their progress and development and certainly they are creating new materials and ways of handling them, the first thing they do is to come here and share with everyone.
Now, most of the times, selling was never planned, and regardless how much others do like the product, more often than not, these people will be happy to just do a few blanks for themselves and continue to try creating new stuff, while others, may decided to experiment with the idea and start making a few more than what he/she would ever use so, once again, they come up here and either share their intentions to produce, asking for possible interest or simply go ahead, get things done and them offer them for sale here for everyone's benefit...!
Yes, everyone's benefit because, in the end of the day, members will be able to see, know and buy products that would never be available in the first place, here or anyone else, if they didn't have the "freedom" to experiment, within the environment this forum offers to everyone.
Some members decide to go bigger and created a situation where many of his/hers and others work is put together to facilitate everyone's job. Some are small business some are bigger business, we are the ones to make them that way by what we purchase so, denying this simple principle to existent members and deny the opportunity to others new comers to have the same chance to learn and grow is, at the least, killing the very existence of this forum principals and a fundamental right everyone has, "exist and grow"...!
If having a separate "topic/forum", is what it takes to allow people to freely do the politically correct term "Market Research", let be it, even tough I could give a half dozen interpretations to this term as, they all mean the same, and all have the same objectives so, not being interested in the right terminologies, lets be a little more thankful and appreciative of these people existence big and small...!
Cheers
George
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ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
In a nutshell: Before Exotics, I could post a pen and have people comment on it. The CATalog evolved because a few folks wanted access to the products I had located. There were a couple thousand members and no one complained about the CATalog---based on email orders.
Now there are a few who "jump all over" my posts of pens as advertising. When I answer a question, I may get PM's from those who notice I mentioned a product that we sell ---"Cleverly hid that ad, but I got it".
Actually, I answered a question---same as I would have done 3 years ago without having to walk on eggshells to do it.
I propose that I should still be able to post anything in SOYP, same as ANY other member, without comments about my advertising. (Call it verbal pollution, if you will). Whether I can attach a link to an ad is, in my mind, the only "open question". Of course, I will abide by whatever decision is made, as I have always attempted to do.
As to "market research"--I believe it falls under the domain of "education" which has ALWAYS been one of the founding principles of the IAP. The pen-making public is educating ME as to their wants and desires. By using polls, I can better determine WHAT to purchase for resale by responding to the greatest number of folks who WANT a product.
As you know Jeff, I ascribe to the philosophy that we are all supposed to be adults. Drive down the interstate and you have hundreds of advertising messages (some on government-paid signs). You have to learn which ones you want to read. Listen to the radio or television, again you need to be able to differentiate your wheat from your chaff. But your chaff may be MY wheat!!!
So it's best to allow the educational information and ask the viewer to "filter" on his own. If he can't accomplish this, we should probably keep him away from sharp tools and this site, anyhow---self-protection.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
Now there are a few who "jump all over" my posts of pens as advertising. When I answer a question, I may get PM's from those who notice I mentioned a product that we sell ---"Cleverly hid that ad, but I got it".
Actually, I answered a question---same as I would have done 3 years ago without having to walk on eggshells to do it.
I propose that I should still be able to post anything in SOYP, same as ANY other member, without comments about my advertising. (Call it verbal pollution, if you will). Whether I can attach a link to an ad is, in my mind, the only "open question". Of course, I will abide by whatever decision is made, as I have always attempted to do.
As to "market research"--I believe it falls under the domain of "education" which has ALWAYS been one of the founding principles of the IAP. The pen-making public is educating ME as to their wants and desires. By using polls, I can better determine WHAT to purchase for resale by responding to the greatest number of folks who WANT a product.
As you know Jeff, I ascribe to the philosophy that we are all supposed to be adults. Drive down the interstate and you have hundreds of advertising messages (some on government-paid signs). You have to learn which ones you want to read. Listen to the radio or television, again you need to be able to differentiate your wheat from your chaff. But your chaff may be MY wheat!!!
So it's best to allow the educational information and ask the viewer to "filter" on his own. If he can't accomplish this, we should probably keep him away from sharp tools and this site, anyhow---self-protection.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
I couldn't have expressed it better, so just mark me down as +1 for Ed's commentary. Well said!
Agree
To put this in perspective. I'm not in the market for most of what Ed sells and I have my own business - mostly Ed and I are not competitors but we perhaps compete on a couple of items.
Now I don't happen to use SYOP myself, I'm not that skilled a craftsman Ed is and so he does use it, and so what if he mentions a product...so if I read that, does that force me to buy it? No. Does it tell me one place I can find it if I ever want it? Yes. Am I so dumb I can't find it anywhere else to compare value? I sure hope not. Many times when folks look at a pen in SOYP the first question in their mind is what kit is that? I think vendors who show a pen should be able to answer that question even if it does plug their own product. Actually I usually just admires the pens and skip over the commentary unless the pen is really unique.
I couldn't have expressed it better, so just mark me down as +1 for Ed's commentary. Well said!
To put this in perspective. I'm not in the market for most of what Ed sells and I have my own business - mostly Ed and I are not competitors but we perhaps compete on a couple of items.
Now I don't happen to use SYOP myself, I'm not that skilled a craftsman Ed is and so he does use it, and so what if he mentions a product...so if I read that, does that force me to buy it? No. Does it tell me one place I can find it if I ever want it? Yes. Am I so dumb I can't find it anywhere else to compare value? I sure hope not. Many times when folks look at a pen in SOYP the first question in their mind is what kit is that? I think vendors who show a pen should be able to answer that question even if it does plug their own product. Actually I usually just admires the pens and skip over the commentary unless the pen is really unique.
OKLAHOMAN
Member
I couldn't have expressed it better, so just mark me down as +1 for Ed's commentary. Well said!
What he said!!!!!:biggrin:
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
For those who are constructing PMs to send me---I have not sent a PM or email to ANY of the above for ANY reason--so no they are not typing this because I asked for their support----------
Sorry to disappoint you!
Members who can construct their OWN thoughts are allowed to AGREE with me.
Sorry to disappoint you!
Members who can construct their OWN thoughts are allowed to AGREE with me.
mbroberg
IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
I have my own thoughts as to this whole issue but in the spirit of not fueling fires or attacking any individual I choose keep them to myself. Suffice it to say I have not had any problems with any of the posts that any of the vendors have made. In fact, I am one of those people who will post a pen in SOYP and post where I got the blank, the kit, the bushings I used, the tool I used, etc. I have also given credt to the individuals who inspired me to do a certain modification or use a certain material. Why? Because I appreciate it when others do the same so I will know where to go to look for the stuff I like. I thought that was what this site was all about. Sharing information. I appreciate all the vendors informing me what they have to offer. I can make up my own mind as to whether or not I will buy. I believe that most members feel the same. Hopefully we won't be deprived of the free flow of the information we need to further our craft due to a vocal minority that has nothing better to do than to whine and make waves.
I also agree.... sorta.
Being the "instigator" of this whole situation, I feel obligated to address the post in question.
I do agree that we need market research, and I also agree that the vendors need a place to show their wares and what have you. Everyone is making the point that the vendors should be allowed free reign of the site, while i disagree with this philosophy, it is not the question of the day.
I have had no PM's or emails from other vendors saying "Man, if we could just run ad's all over IAP". None of them are interested in turning IAP into a sitcom, where you have 11 minutes of quality, and 19 minutes of commercials.
My whole beef is equality. If Exotics gets special treatment, then there should be an amendment that says they get special treatment. Otherwise, they should be held to the same level of accountability as the rest of the vendors.
So yeah, I disagree with the thought that vendors shuold get free run of the site. If you want commercial space... PAY FOR IT. That's what all those people listed above had to do..... Radio, TV, bilboards, newspaper, etc. etc. Hell, you already have an opportunity to earn a spot in MVV forum... That isn't good enough, so there has to be an ad on the CC forum, SOYP forum, MVV forum, Marketing forum, and any other forum that can be "squeeked" into. And if this site is gonna become the spot for all the vendors to push their merch on us, then ALL the vendors should get the same opportunity to do so.
Plain and simple. Either amend the rules to exclude the "elite" or enforce the rules for everyone.
Being the "instigator" of this whole situation, I feel obligated to address the post in question.
I do agree that we need market research, and I also agree that the vendors need a place to show their wares and what have you. Everyone is making the point that the vendors should be allowed free reign of the site, while i disagree with this philosophy, it is not the question of the day.
I have had no PM's or emails from other vendors saying "Man, if we could just run ad's all over IAP". None of them are interested in turning IAP into a sitcom, where you have 11 minutes of quality, and 19 minutes of commercials.
My whole beef is equality. If Exotics gets special treatment, then there should be an amendment that says they get special treatment. Otherwise, they should be held to the same level of accountability as the rest of the vendors.
So yeah, I disagree with the thought that vendors shuold get free run of the site. If you want commercial space... PAY FOR IT. That's what all those people listed above had to do..... Radio, TV, bilboards, newspaper, etc. etc. Hell, you already have an opportunity to earn a spot in MVV forum... That isn't good enough, so there has to be an ad on the CC forum, SOYP forum, MVV forum, Marketing forum, and any other forum that can be "squeeked" into. And if this site is gonna become the spot for all the vendors to push their merch on us, then ALL the vendors should get the same opportunity to do so.
Plain and simple. Either amend the rules to exclude the "elite" or enforce the rules for everyone.
I like how you claimed to be staying out of it and then threw in the flame at the end! that was pretty slick!:biggrin: Are you not attacking? Are you attacking? Are you fueling the fire? Or do you have a fire extinguisher?:tongue: It can be so hard to tell sometimes.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
My comments are addressed to the OP. All members are encouraged to express THEIR opinion to the OP--who also is the site owner.
Only Jeff knows what we each contribute and so far, I've had no complaints from HIM. So, since you "call out" exotics in particular, Ron. Let me reply specifically to you---what you (and your small minority of followers) think is of no concern to me.
I am here at the whim of the owner and his appointees. I hope to abide by his rules. I believe his rules are for the benefit of the MAJORITY of the members.
LOUD, must not be mistaken for CORRECT!
What Jeff and Curtis decide is all that matters to me and several thousand other members.
Only Jeff knows what we each contribute and so far, I've had no complaints from HIM. So, since you "call out" exotics in particular, Ron. Let me reply specifically to you---what you (and your small minority of followers) think is of no concern to me.
I am here at the whim of the owner and his appointees. I hope to abide by his rules. I believe his rules are for the benefit of the MAJORITY of the members.
LOUD, must not be mistaken for CORRECT!
What Jeff and Curtis decide is all that matters to me and several thousand other members.
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Not your damned call. Jeff, and many years ago the Board, decided that this site would not sell advertising. Advertising is allowed as it benefits the members. THE DECISION IS ALREADY MADE!
Jeff knows of your bitch. He's taking stock of the situation. If you don't like Jeff's rules in Jeff's house, leave and start your own forum with YOUR rules. It's that simple.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
The Pen Shop comes to mind for those of us with "historical memory".
jskeen
Member
Perhaps somebody could call up the owner of that site and ask him "How's that working out for ya?"
I would but I don't expect he would take my call, unless he doesn't have caller ID, in which case it would be a very short call.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
I'll bet if we conducted a poll, the number of participants who could correctly identify RTJW would be incredibly small.
alphageek
Former Moderator
Who says they aren't as accountable as the others? You? Personally, I think that the complaints you have with exotics could be pointed to other vendors too...
Amen to both those statements.
+1 on that... Personally, I think IAP is one of the best sites (not just for pens), but any that I've come across. Members like Ed, Curtis, Lou, and countless others, that have valuable input (and often are also vendors) along with Jeff make this a great site.
The fact that you personally feel that exotics has an elite 'status' is one that I agree with, but with exact opposite tone. They are one of the best in terms of the help they have giving other members. Am I biased, yes - but so is everyone - each person has their own bias. Mine was made by the good information and positive attitudes given.
Back onto the topic:
I like the rules as they are and have given my input above, but whatever changes Jeff feels necessary I'm sure will be good... and if they aren't for the better, I'm sure they can be looked at again.
Jeff - I wish you luck because I understand trying to please a crowd and listening to squeeky wheels. Good luck and know that most of us will stand behind any choice you make.
You are 100% correct. It is not my call. I am just a bystander. But just like all the rest of the bystanders, Until someone boots me from this site, I have the same right to post as anyone else. I find it amusing that there can be several posts where people are indirectly bashing me, and that is ok, but as soon as i voice my opinion, I get slammed. You people can keep preaching on the same point.......
"Vendors should be allowed to post" over and over and over and over. Why can i not defend my position? If my position bothers you, then maybe you should heed your own advice and move on.
It is like a bunch of high school kids....... You know that if you harp long enough on the crap, then i will step up and say something. Hopefully (in your mind) i will keep yelling and screaming and Jeff will get sick of it and boot me. If you want me out, then take a freaking poll or petition or something and present it to Jeff. Otherwise, I will be right here doing what i do... MAKIN NOISE!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
Gin N' Tonic
Member
The board is no more, Remember?
Perhaps it is time for a change and advertising should be sold. Seems to me if one had to pay for advertising then the whole complaint of special treatment, or the perception of special treatment would go away?
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
That would be another slam aimed at me right???
Good job!!! Because you made a general statement, you can verbally slam me in public and not break the rules! You are smarter than us dumb Okies for sure.
Can you say "BAAAHHHH"?????
All you sheep have fun following Herder Ed around!
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