Vendor Marketing

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What's your opinion on vendor market research at penturners.org?

  • Market research should not be allowed, period.

    Votes: 8 3.6%

  • Market research in any forum is OK.

    Votes: 92 41.8%

  • A separate forum should be created for market research.

    Votes: 120 54.5%
  • Total voters
    220
  • Poll closed .
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jeff

jeff

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Location
Westlake, OH, USA.
Plenty of heat is being generated around the forum right now over the issue of "vendor market research." For the purpose of this discussion, let's define that as a vendor doing, for example, some or all of the following:
  • asking "If we made X, would you buy it?"
  • asking "How much would you pay for X?"
  • asking "How can we serve you better?"
  • posting a poll about product color or style preferences.
A provision of the AUP says, "Advertisements to buy, sell, or swap belong in the Individual Classifieds Forum or the Business Classifieds Forum. Ads found elsewhere may be deleted or moved. Shill posts, spam, or sneaky marketing practices will get you ejected."

In response to an annoying flood of market research by one individual over two years ago, I put this policy in effect. I believe that because I never rescinded that policy, anything that smells remotely like market research, even to one person, has become a taboo practice. Some also believe that the AUP's reference to "sneaky marketing practices" is a reference to market research. It is not.

Here's my position.

Market research is not a bad thing. It enables vendors to discover and understand WHAT WE WANT them to provide for us. Market research is going to be done one way or another. Vendors will GUESS, based on what they read in the forums, and maybe guess wrong; or they will try something and if it flops they've wasted our money and theirs, leaving less money for them to develop and us to buy what we REALLY WANT; or they'll just keep selling the same old stuff and although maybe natural selection will weed it out, it'll take a lot longer than if we just let them ASK.

The IAP is about education. We educate each other, and I think it's reasonable to say that we should also educate our vendors. After all, what fun is penmaking if we can't buy what we REALLY WANT??

So, to finally clarify and codify the rules for market research, there's a poll attached to this thread. Once the votes are in, I'll revise the AUP as needed to make the rules on vendor marketing as clear as possible.
 
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We need it here somewhere or product development will stagnate. If everyone knows where it is, there can be no debate about it's being in the proper location. Let the voting begin.
 
I would rather see the vendors work with us to get what WE want than take a stab in the dark and try and sell us some crap we would never want. I don't mind the market research for 2 reasons, I get an idea of what is selling in different areas and I get loads of new ideas.

As far as the heated threads go ... I have better things to do with my time than read them, like say turning a pen : )

Bruce
 
Jeff,

Here is my thought. I'm perfectly ok with market research. I think a new forum "might" make sense, but even if you had a new one... I think there is places here that most research fits into.. For examples: a new laser kit in SOYP, or marketing questions about ink usage in Marketing.

There is several people that start of with a cool new idea, which is quickly followed by "are you going to sell that?". As long as the outright selling is in the right place, I think its good here. We only have a handful of really active vendors on here... I have a feeling that many of the others do their research 'silently'. I like the active approach better!
 
I am ok with the market research. I chose one on a seperate forum. The reason I chose a seperate forum was I think you'd be adding even more work to those moderating. Having to move this add or that add to other more appropriate places.

I think they need to be allowed to do some research and marketing to be able to completely fulfill the needs of turners.
 
My view is rather simplistic. Let it be open, if it offends someone then ignore the post. No one is forced to read anything. I like the idea of being asked to provide feedback and like reading about new products and processes. Its an oppertunity to gleen new ideas and insights. We're all big boys and girls, I don't think we'll be coherced(sp) into buying something we don't want.

I'd prefer that than the personal sniping thats been cropping up lately.


I didn't just fall off the turnip truck:rolleyes:

Carl
 
Jeff, I agree with Dale a new forum MIGHT make sense but when I'm showed a new blank like feathers, carbon fiber etc in the SOYP forum the first thought I have is as Dale said "are they going to be for sale", you need to allow vendors the opportunity to show their wares and how they would look,work or help you sell.
 
I'm with the guys above... I have no problem with market research or any research in any of the forums... I always have the option to pass or ignore any thread that I don't want to read... I do have a problem with some of the "brotherly" fussing I see, but again.. I have my option to pass and go to next forum... I don't read every thread on the forum anyway.. I pick and choose as my interest dictates.
 
I don't consider a vendor showing a pen made of a new materiel in SOYP market research. I don't think we need a special forum for market research. I think it is good that we have vendors trying to find out what kind of products we would like to see. I was not here 2 years ago so I don't know what happened then. There may need to be some rules in place to keep whatever happened then from happening again.
 
There have been in the past a few posts that were "if I buy or before I spend ....Is anyone interested in buying. A couple of them if not in violation of the letter of the law seemed to be contrary to the intent as I understood it. A seperate forum would allow these type of threads to be posted without recourse. Would this forum be allowed on the front page or would it be held back like all the classified threads?
Without a forum you may have to reestablish the guidlines for such posts, where they are allowed and in what context. Perhaps clarity is all you need.

Mike
 
alphageek said:
Jeff,

Here is my thought. I'm perfectly ok with market research. I think a new forum "might" make sense, but even if you had a new one... I think there is places here that most research fits into.. For examples: a new laser kit in SOYP, or marketing questions about ink usage in Marketing.

There is several people that start of with a cool new idea, which is quickly followed by "are you going to sell that?". As long as the outright selling is in the right place, I think its good here. We only have a handful of really active vendors on here... I have a feeling that many of the others do their research 'silently'. I like the active approach better!
Click to expand...

I don't think there is any problem with a vendor posting a new product in the SOYP forums as long is it is shown in pen form. Afterall, if I could make those products I would be happy to show off my talents also. :wink: They are not trying to sell them there and the vendors are good about not marketing when they do show their products. I guess it is a form of marketing when it is a finished product but then again it is not overt and stating that you can buy these at my website or such. I guess that these are my opinions and I think others will vary.

I think the rub is more over the overt marketing that some feel takes place. I personally don't see the uproars lately as overt marketing as much as informative posts...
 
Market research is a very important tool for any vendor and there is no better place for pen materials research than on this site. My vote is for a separate forum, which I think is to the benefit of the sellers and those who like to participate with opinion. It makes the intent very clear. So far, no one had offended me in other forums so I'll stick around in any scenario if you will have me.
 
I don't see the option I would choose. I'm not sure a special forum is needed, but there are some foums where market research should not be. Specifically, any forums dedicated to "how to" should not have market reserch. Examples are Penturning, Advanced Pen Turning, Finishes, Photographing your pen, etc. Market research would polute these.

But other forums like SYOP, Casual Conv, classifieds, etc - these I have no problem with market research.
 
I think we all like to see a new idea in pen form. SOYP in a great place to post prototypes, we did, and if it is a hit, people ask, is it for sale. However, for components, material, supplies being marketed for approval, perhaps a separate forum is the answer. Then, if the post offends someone, it can be moved to the proper area and the problem is solved. This makes the moderators jobs easier. Maybe a forum-would you buy this?
 
Jeff,
I've seen no inappropriate actions taken by any members of IAP who have businesses that cater to wood turning and pen making. I anxiously wait for new posts from certain member/vendors showing off or looking for input on new ideas and designs that allow us to further enjoy this "hobby". I don't feel a separate forum is needed for these type of postings.
 
I think any of the options given would be cool as long as everyone had to follow the same guidelines.


PS. Thanks for doing this Jeff.
 
I don't see any reason why not to allow it. Likely in it's own forum, to allow for those that do not want to "weed through it" can keep away from it.
Just a thought, a nominal fee, or donations could be asked for... Just thinking more along the lines of donations to the site to keep it up and running, or for competitions.

Another idea, on the "If we had XXX, would you use it," not sure if it is feasible, but competitions around it if XXX makes it to market? Prizes to be donated?
 
I for one am glad vendors are active on the forums. I regularly purchase supplies, kits, blanks and other items I need, and I get them all from vendors that are active on the forums. It is weren't for that, I would be missing out on some great stuff that you can't get anywhere else.

Personally, I would encourage folks with a unique skill set or shop set up to always show jigs, tools, parts and techinques and ask if there was any interest in them. You might be surprised at what we "lesser" pen turners would buy to advance our craft.

How else would I know about bushings from JohnnyCNC, Tool rest and sanding mills from R.Herrell, (i think that's his name), glue from Manny, blanks from Issac and Big Rob, fancy blanks from Ed and Dawn, pen parts from the silverpenparts guy, boxes from the box guys, pen stands from cnccutter and so on. If I left anyone out that I buy from, sorry, but you get the drift. I Love Our Vendors!!!!!

I really don't know about where stuff is posted, I just see threads as new or old. If i'm interested I check it out, if not I don't. But I can certainly see that a straight up plea for business or new product development should be in a specific forum, I'm all for that, but if someone occassionally mis-posts, it's no biggy to me. Or if they just post into whatever forum they think is appropriate, that's fine too.

All in all, I would like to see MORE postings from existing vendors and I would encourage everyone to do whatever it takes to get new vendors on here.

I personally have had conversations with Jim Byrne and encouraged him to post stuff about his tools so everyone would know more about them and I have also asked the guy (Joe) at Cue Components to do the same. If he was on here he would see the demand for small quantities of veneer strips and maybe come up with a little higher price, but a small minimum order.

That's my 2 cents worth.
 
I think that market research is a legitimate part of doing business that benefits both the vendor and the entire pen turning community. I would have preferred another choice on the poll. If a choice of "Limit market research to those forums designated by the Administrator as open to marketing" had been available, I would have marked it. No research would eventually hurt us all.
 
Maybe

There is market research and there is market research. I offer things for sale...I sometimes say "if I offer this item would you be interested" Based on the response I will or will not offer that item in the classifieds at a better price than I will offer it elsewhere. If I can't ask that question somewhere in these forums, I just won't make the special offers.
 
I strongly feel that we should have a separate forum with a title such as "Materials R&D" or some such. Then, that forum needs to be MEMBERS ONLY. This will serve 2 purposes...it will move the market research stuff to a forum so that folks that are not interested in marketing can ignore it but it will also make it a little harder for the big guys to glean ideas from us small guys here.
 
MesquiteMan said:
I strongly feel that we should have a separate forum with a title such as "Materials R&D" or some such. Then, that forum needs to be MEMBERS ONLY. This will serve 2 purposes...it will move the market research stuff to a forum so that folks that are not interested in marketing can ignore it but it will also make it a little harder for the big guys to glean ideas from us small guys here.
Click to expand...

I like that... Of course it only makes it a tiny bit harder, but that suggestion makes sense! I second that idea.

(Oh, and LOL about the moderator harassing the owner of the site on a bump!)
 
MesquiteMan said:
I strongly feel that we should have a separate forum with a title such as "Materials R&D" or some such. Then, that forum needs to be MEMBERS ONLY. This will serve 2 purposes...it will move the market research stuff to a forum so that folks that are not interested in marketing can ignore it but it will also make it a little harder for the big guys to glean ideas from us small guys here.
Click to expand...

This is true... But can non-members see that there is a particular forum for members only or will they have no idea that it's even there? Because the "big guys" could just become members and then go check things out.
 
I think a new forum makes the most sense so there is one place you can go to to see what is new. But I don't think that it should be to rigidly enforced. Sometimes threads take an unexpected turn and those should be allowed to run for a bit.
 
I see nothing wrong with let's say somebody like Ed, or Curtis or Constant posting a picture of one of their pens, made from materials they sell, in the SOYP forum, I personally don't check all the forums everyday....but I do check SOYP and the vendors forum. We do have members here that sell items that don't advertise...but other members know because they post example of their work in SOYP. Leave things the way they are, they've worked for over six years until recently when it seems we've had some newer members just looking for something to whine and cry about. Didn't mean to rant but I've watched this go on and I'm tired of a great forum being brought down to the level of a bunch of bickering folks who don't have time for pen turning because they are too busy weeding through useless worthless post looking for the one they need!
 
I use the "new posts" button to browse this forum. I like seeing every thing (just nosey i guess). I do not have a problem with the vendors showing their work in SOYP. The R&D forum would be fine aslong as it shows in the "new posts"
 
jeff said:
Here's my position.
Click to expand...

This statement will skew your results and makes me wonder if the poll will have any bearing whatsoever. If you were looking for accuracy then personal opinion should have been left out. I'm sure that many will read your position and vote option 2 because that is what they think you want.

For what it's worth, I voted for a separate forum in the hope that it will create a level field for everyone and end some of the bickering.
 
Gin N' Tonic said:
This statement will skew your results and makes me wonder if the poll will have any bearing whatsoever. If you were looking for accuracy then personal opinion should have been left out. I'm sure that many will read your position and vote option 2 because that is what they think you want.

For what it's worth, I voted for a separate forum in the hope that it will create a level field for everyone and end some of the bickering.
Click to expand...

Scott, you chose which portion of Jeff's post to quote....you need to include all of it....nowhere in it did he state a preference as to which way he wanted it....he DID state that HOWEVER the vote went that's how the rules would be written up. Stop trying to cause problems!
 
How are we to nkow if something new is being offered by our members who are vendors? I get somethings by reading these posts and seeing what others have posted and the pictures they attach. I would have no problem with a forum dedicated to new products and posts about possible new products that may be offered if the interest is there. I would rather purchase from an active member than from someone else and I have done just that several times. Lets say if Ed has a chance to bring in some out of this world materials and wants to know the interest from us the active posters and members here what better place than to show some of it without fear of it being deleted or bashed by those who have a grudge or dislike for him or anyone who posts in that forum. Objectivity and not insults should be all that is allowed there as it is for research for the benefit of Ed and those of us who will purchase from him and the others who post new and exciting items. Enough rambling but this is my opinion.
Jerry
 
Gin N' Tonic said:
This statement will skew your results and makes me wonder if the poll will have any bearing whatsoever. If you were looking for accuracy then personal opinion should have been left out. I'm sure that many will read your position and vote option 2 because that is what they think you want.

For what it's worth, I voted for a separate forum in the hope that it will create a level field for everyone and end some of the bickering.
Click to expand...

Scott, that doesn't make sense. First, there is no concept of "accuracy" in an opinion poll. Second, why would people do that? To end up with a forum that doesn't represent their interests? A forum that makes me happy but nobody else?

I'm human, I have opinions.

It has never been my experience here that people let me get away with something dumb just because it's what I want. On the contrary, I have proposed many things over the years that never got implemented because I got honest feedback in a situation just like this.
 
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I would like to see a section/space where Vendors can pay to have some advertising space and may run an add for a month or more at a time. I have greatly benefited from this forum and still get a good amount of my sales from here. I think this forum gets abused by some people to promote there products just because it is free and without this forum business would have been more of a challenge.

If it is a problem for me as a vendor to show my new pens in the SOYP forum then how about a forum where vendors can show there new products.
 
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