Vendor Forums - keep, change, or end?

Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad

jeff

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 5, 2003
Messages
8,970
Location
Westlake, OH, USA.
I created our Vendor Forums a few years ago after seeing a similar feature work well on another site. What I envisioned was a place where vendors would interact somewhat actively with members. Unfortunately, our vendor forums get very little traffic. Some in fact have not been posted by the vendor or a member in almost 2 years. A couple do get quite a bit of use, but most are quiet/dead. I'm thinking about a couple of things, and I'd like your input.

1) Delete vendor forums which have not been posted in for X period of time. Maybe 60 days?
2) Eliminate vendor forums completely. This would require that we:
  • relax the rules about vendors participating in the open forums to answer questions about their products
  • provide a place for vendors to advertise specials, etc., and the For Sale forum probably isn't that spot
The goal of the vendor forums was to make vendors feel welcome and included in our community while not having too much commercial content in the forums. If you can think of a better way to do that, please speak up!
 
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad

J_B

Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
113
Location
Shelbyville, KY
I vote toss the vendor forum completely as I believe it would actually be more helpful if the vendors are able to reply directly to a specific discussion regarding their products which we utilize. All the answers, help tips from vendors etc would be better placed in that specific discussion or issue raised by fellow members.
To help support these vendors I think an advertise/specials page will still give them a nice free place to park their adds. in return for them addressing and monitoring any issues which we may have with them.

Thanks
2centsJB
 

jttheclockman

Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Messages
19,082
Location
NJ, USA.
Please please please do not invite the vendors back in to the mainstream of pen turning forums. We have been through this and the amount of additional ads will set this site back once again. I lived through the ad wars here and thus the signature wars as well and rules were made to stem the tide of those. Not pleasant. (my opinion)

If a vendor is not posting to their home then drop them plain and simple. They are not vendors you want to deal with anyway. I like it if a specific question comes up about something that deal with a specific vendor it is done off site and in their own thread. If more than one person has the same question then go over there and repeat the question as many times as you want. We do not need to bog down forums with questions that can only be answered by a vendor.

If you want to have one big forum strictly for vendor questions and ads and promos then that is good too. They would have to sort out how they make themselves stand out. What I see here is alot of non vendors selling blanks so I guess you still need to keep a for sale thread open. Just my thoughts.
 

mbroberg

IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
5,954
Location
Columbus, OH
I'd be fine with eliminating the Vendor Forums and allowing Vendors to speak more freely in the general forums. As it is now if I make a pen using one of my blanks I don't believe I can post that pen in SOYP because of someone yelling "Advertising in the general forums". If I recall right, that was the situation that led to the creation of the Vendor forums. Ed Brown couldn't wish someone a Happy Birthday without someone claiming to be annoyed by his "Advertising" (OK, maybe a little exaggeration, but he seemed to be called quite a bit over trying to give legitimate answers to legitimate questions.) But if I make a pen using one of John Underhill's blanks, or Tom Bell's blanks I can post it in SOYP and identify the maker or source of the blanks and kit which is something I normally try to do anyway in case someone else would like to make a similar pen. Having a single forum where Vendors can make announcements regarding their stores, sales, new products, etc. would be fine. Having a link to individual vendor websites would also be good, although most vendors already have those in their signatures. Allowing the vendors to talk about their products in the general forums shouldn't be a problem if the comments have a legitimate bearing on the conversation that is taking place and the vendors themselves use a little common sense about what they post.
 

CREID

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2008
Messages
3,009
Location
Vancouver, wa
I like the vendors forum. It lets me know they are a vendor that pays attention to the board, not just someone that logs on and puts up something for sale in the for sale forum then leaves. Maybe to help with the unused problem, if after a certain amount of time with no posting an automated message (if thats possible) could be sent to the vendor advising them they are missing out on keeping the community informed of their business.
 

jeff

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 5, 2003
Messages
8,970
Location
Westlake, OH, USA.
I vote toss the vendor forum completely as I believe it would actually be more helpful if the vendors are able to reply directly to a specific discussion regarding their products which we utilize. All the answers, help tips from vendors etc would be better placed in that specific discussion or issue raised by fellow members.
To help support these vendors I think an advertise/specials page will still give them a nice free place to park their adds. in return for them addressing and monitoring any issues which we may have with them.

Thanks
2centsJB
I don't recall going to the vendor forum. Links would be useful. JMHO.

It was in my first post above: Vendor Forums
 

walshjp17

Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2012
Messages
3,416
Location
Weddington, NC
My preference is to remove the inactive vendors and keep those that have shown quite a bit of activity/value, especially Rick Herrell.
 

lyonsacc

Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
1,615
Location
Cincinnati, OH
Keep them - I go there a couple times a year to look for something specific. Eliminate after 6 months maybe. Loosen up what vendors can say/do in the regular forums.
 

jeff

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 5, 2003
Messages
8,970
Location
Westlake, OH, USA.
I'd be fine with eliminating the Vendor Forums and allowing Vendors to speak more freely in the general forums. As it is now if I make a pen using one of my blanks I don't believe I can post that pen in SOYP because of someone yelling "Advertising in the general forums". If I recall right, that was the situation that led to the creation of the Vendor forums. Ed Brown couldn't wish someone a Happy Birthday without someone claiming to be annoyed by his "Advertising" (OK, maybe a little exaggeration, but he seemed to be called quite a bit over trying to give legitimate answers to legitimate questions.) But if I make a pen using one of John Underhill's blanks, or Tom Bell's blanks I can post it in SOYP and identify the maker or source of the blanks and kit which is something I normally try to do anyway in case someone else would like to make a similar pen. Having a single forum where Vendors can make announcements regarding their stores, sales, new products, etc. would be fine. Having a link to individual vendor websites would also be good, although most vendors already have those in their signatures. Allowing the vendors to talk about their products in the general forums shouldn't be a problem if the comments have a legitimate bearing on the conversation that is taking place and the vendors themselves use a little common sense about what they post.

We did have a mess. Vendor A would post an answer to a question, then vendor B would chime in with his own answer, and sometimes disparage Vendor A. I never want to get back to that point, nor do I want every other post to be someone pushing a product or running a live auction or somehow trying to squeeze money out of me, such as I see on other sites. Today I think we have a very nice selection of vendors who act very responsibly and treat us and each other with respect.

We do have some rules in the Marketplace catagory, but they're not easy to find since we switched forum software, and they definitely need to be tweaked. Make those more accessible is on the to-do list. Here are the Produce Reference Rules. You definitely can post in SOYP. Here the relevant part:

Posting in Show Off Your Pens

If you are a vendor, and you make your own pens from your own product, feel free to post your work in our Show Off Your Pens forum. You may tastefully identify your materials and indicate that you sell them, but you may not direct people to your web site or IAP ad, or post links, catalog numbers, or prices. (A tasteful reference would be: "Made using my Sweet Sparkles Blank.") The idea is simple; we want to see your nice pens, we want to know you sell the stuff so we can make similarly nice pens, but SOYP is not your product catalog. Leave a week between posting a pen in SOYP and offering the same thing in the classifieds or vice versa.
 

mbroberg

IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
5,954
Location
Columbus, OH
We did have a mess. Vendor A would post an answer to a question, then vendor B would chime in with his own answer, and sometimes disparage Vendor A. I never want to get back to that point, nor do I want every other post to be someone pushing a product or running a live auction or somehow trying to squeeze money out of me, such as I see on other sites. Today I think we have a very nice selection of vendors who act very responsibly and treat us and each other with respect.

We do have some rules in the Marketplace catagory, but they're not easy to find since we switched forum software, and they definitely need to be tweaked. Make those more accessible is on the to-do list. Here are the Produce Reference Rules. You definitely can post in SOYP. Here the relevant part:

Thanks for the clarification, Jeff. I wasn't sure (Yes, I could have asked) so I erred on the side of caution. I too do not want to witness all the drama we have had in the past and I certainly don't want to be a part of it.
 

Curly

Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
4,828
Location
Saskatoon SK., Canada.
I too remember the "old days" when the jostling for vendor supremacy and the acrimony among the camps was rampant. Most definitely don't want to see a return to that and I am not so sure people will be mature enough to play nice with one another if the thumb is removed.

I also got spanked the first time I showed a pen I made from one of Marla's blanks because it was considered shilling. So after that any posts I made identified they were her blanks and added the signature showing the connection between us. I also put a disclaimer on any post that mentions a product by one of the vendors of her blanks for the same reason. I'd like to give that up but am happy to if it means harmony in the forum.

If there is a way to ensure history doesn't repeat itself I'm for it. If not then keep it.
 

leehljp

Member Liaison
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
Messages
9,314
Location
Tunica, Mississippi,
Combine Marketing, Vendors, Sales or similar all into one category. I never see Ed's posts as "vendor oriented" because he does not try to sell with his posts. He is a true friend to IAP members. IF someone asks in a general post, he will answer that specific question, but it is usually others who mention his products. I guess I am saying he is not "pushy" with his products but is very helpful to the point of a question. But I do see people try to stealthily push their wares in a general post. There are times when it is OK, IMO such as when someone comes out with a totally new product such as when the laser engravers got started and a couple of people developed the mechanical devices to roll the blank under the laser. For those that can remember, It was fun to watch the "watch parts" pen develop. But these were not in "sales" but rather in development and pushing the development of pen making.

There is a difference in that above vs sales, marketing and vendors. And it sure gets discombobulated when pen making & development get mixed in with sales of some sorts.
 

edman2

Local Chapter Leader
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
1,375
Location
Greenbrier, AR. USA.
Well I've been around for 12 plus years and I too remember all the noise about vendors selling. I remember some people being annoyed if the slightest mention was made by a vendor and "selling" was the charge. I remember being annoyed by those who were annoyed about everything. So, I think the safest sloution from an administrative viewpoint is to keep the vendor forums and set a guideline about how often the vendor has to use it if they want to keep their slot open.
Freddie
 

robutacion

Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
Messages
6,514
Location
Australia - SA Adelaide Hills
As a vendor myself being through the nightmare we had here about adds, sales pitch, and all the issues mentioned above that cause the creation of the Vendors forum, I never felt more relaxed participating on IAP.

It is also true that I haven't had much of adds/sales for a long time as I see enough people offering blanks for sale on a regular basis that (I believe) never registered as a "Vendor" but I also think that people should be free to do what they want if they play within the rules.

I certainly do not wish to go back to the point that every time I open my mouth, I will be accused of marketing or trying to sell something, I had enough of that so do I think the Vendors forum should stay...? absolutely, it did sort a mess that can be easily re-created, after all, we have new member joining in every day some of which can have very strong criteria and tolerance to what Vendors can saw in the "regular" forums, therefore bringing back all the nasties we experienced before.

I would invite members that have joined basically to sell products and others that sell but also contribute in another way like most of us, to register as a Vendor and make them aware of the rules that are fairly relaxed, therefore, should not be abused and remove Vendors that are not contributing in any way for more than 3 to 6 months.

I believe Jeff that, if ain't broken don't try to fix it, I understand/know what you had in mind when you posted this thread and put forward your thoughts about the issue but in reality, this is not a perfect world and there will be always someone out there that given the chance will try to spoil what we have, it has taken a long time and a lot of work from a lot of people to get IAP to this point and I will defend it with all I have...!

PS: Just one question, If a member asks if anyone has a particular type of blank/wood, if you are a Vendor and happen to have that blank(s)/wood(s), would it be better to 1- don't say anything, 2-send a PM to that person letting him/her know you may have what he/she is after or 3- you reply to his/her thread directly letting him/her and anyone else that may be interested in that/those particular blank(s) know you have them...?

Cheers
George
 
Last edited:

socdad

Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2010
Messages
1,136
Location
Dayton, Ohio
Keep the forum but delete those that do not keep up on a regular basis, possibly every 90 days or so ...
 

duncsuss

Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
2,151
Location
Wilmington, MA
If it doesn't cost anything to keep them open, I don't see there is a problem letting them sit there even if unused.

Perhaps ask the vendors privately for their thoughts on how IAP could work better for them, then use your sound judgment to filter the ideas and bring a composite suggestion back to the general membership?
 

Hubert H

Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2010
Messages
917
Location
Wolford, ND
The above discussion - back and forth - is why this site works so well. Thank you Jeff and each of you who make it possible. By the way, I have been here longer than it shows. I had a computer crash - couldn't remember the pass word I had used so I rejoined a second time.
 

deeceedub

Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
87
Location
Brownfield, TX
I actually appreciate the vendor forums. Several times I've seen specials, sales, restocks, new products, etc announced there. Just last week I was having difficulty using a discount code for Exotic Blanks; I checked the forum and sure enough, Ed had commented that PayPal was having issues with the code and told us how to check out successfully.

Delete inactive or non-responsive vendors, but leave the active accounts, please. :)
 

robutacion

Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
Messages
6,514
Location
Australia - SA Adelaide Hills
The above discussion - back and forth - is why this site works so well. Thank you Jeff and each of you who make it possible. By the way, I have been here longer than it shows. I had a computer crash - couldn't remember the pass word I had used so I rejoined a second time.
Hi Hubert,
In regards to the highlighted situation you mentioned, I think is unfair on you not to get to your old membership login, I would ask Jeff to reinstate your previous status with the correct year on joining, threads and posts and anything else you had on your previous login, I'm sure that Jeff will help you out in that regard so, contact him.

Cheers
George
 

jeff

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 5, 2003
Messages
8,970
Location
Westlake, OH, USA.
The above discussion - back and forth - is why this site works so well. Thank you Jeff and each of you who make it possible. By the way, I have been here longer than it shows. I had a computer crash - couldn't remember the pass word I had used so I rejoined a second time.

I merged your old user account ("Hubert") with this one. Now you have your original join date and post count added from the old account,
 

jeff

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 5, 2003
Messages
8,970
Location
Westlake, OH, USA.
Thank you all for the excellent discussion. Very helpful to me!

I think it's obvious that the Vendor Forums serve a purpose when they are used regularly. We have a number which are used quite often. SIDE NOTE: I think @robutacion (George's Bits of Timber) gets the 🏆for most entertaining and interesting vendor forum. George, you have a way of writing that I have always found very enjoyable to read!

I'm going to contact the forum owners who seem to have let their forums go dormant, and let them know that we expect some (meaningful) activity by them at least every X days in order to keep theirs open. I think that X is probably 60 days.

I'm also planning to move/consolidate some forums, and I think it might be helpful to make the vendor forums more visible.

Thanks!
 

robutacion

Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
Messages
6,514
Location
Australia - SA Adelaide Hills
Thanks Jeff on the double, I knew that you could resolve Hubert's situation/issue with certain ease so than you for that.

The second thank you is based on your words in regards to my Vendors forum "value" to all IAP members, I try to be all those things and being educative at the same time, I'm a little disappointed with myself for not using the sales side of the Vendors forum criteria which I should, I have great blanks to offer that no one else has, maybe not the most "commercial" and "exotic" woods/burls, nevertheless, I have the variety and quantities to keep going for a long time, sure, I have the web-store that some of you use every so often but I could do "specials" as I did before and continue to share my woods with all the IAP members and have some fun with it.

I did, however, have another reason as to why I stopped creating those adds on IAP and that has nothing to do with the number of people selling blanks here, it has to do with the "accusations" that I had from some members where I was trying to push sales/blanks at peoples throats and that all my content/presence was to sell stuff. Some of those people are gone and some are still here and I hope that once and for all, they accept the fact that they were wrong, very wrong indeed, when was the last time I put an add on IAP...?? long ago, years indeed but that will change in the near future so, I'm pleased and relieved that Jeff is keeping the Vendors forum, a place where folks like myself can be free of all those nasty comments, I don't hold grudges but I don't forget...!

And Jeff and others that I know that enjoy my writings, I may even tell a few more stories some from more recent times and others that I recall every so often, my timber life has changed dramatically since Merissa developed the Rheumatoid Arthritis and became unable to help me out, on my own is only so much I can do, I know that my friends here have understood that which I appreciate immensely but I'm not done yet, I have been on the chainsaw lately trying to cut into manageable sizes all my goodies stored in the paddock and bring them all home and undercover, I managed to find another old fart like myself that know how to use a chainsaw but he is half my weight so he moves like a cat and get's paid, there are some chainsaw milling to do on some huge logs, crotches and so on that I got in 2016 from the now non existent, McLaren Vale firewood processing plant, I have been finding pieces that I forgot I put in there and some are something else so, I will share when I'm ready...!

I apologise for going a "bit" actually quite a lot off track to the thread issue, sorry Jeff, sometimes I can't help myself...! :)

Thank you,

Cheers
George
 
Last edited:

leehljp

Member Liaison
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
Messages
9,314
Location
Tunica, Mississippi,
George, I didn't mention you in my original post above, but you are also one of the most helpful people of all and I always enjoy your posts. IMO, there has never been a problem with you (and a few others) as a vendor pushing your products within the "helping" forums. You, Ed and several others have set the example of honor in this area! Thank you!
 

robutacion

Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
Messages
6,514
Location
Australia - SA Adelaide Hills
George, I didn't mention you in my original post above, but you are also one of the most helpful people of all and I always enjoy your posts. IMO, there has never been a problem with you (and a few others) as a vendor pushing your products within the "helping" forums. You, Ed and several others have set the example of honor in this area! Thank you!
Thank you...!

Cheers
George
 

jeff

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 5, 2003
Messages
8,970
Location
Westlake, OH, USA.
Just as a followup to this thread and to keep you informed on what's happening.... I'll be sending the email below to the inactive vendor forum owners. I'm hoping that we can clean up the inactive forums and perhaps spark some activity. Thanks for your thoughts on this.

Greetings!

Please excuse this impersonal message, but I'm trying to be efficient with a mass communication.

You currently have a Vendor Forum at penturners.org. The intent of vendor forums is to provide a means for vendors to engage with members in conversations specific to their products. We noticed that there has been no activity by either you or members in your forum in over six months. Stale content in your forum doesn't benefit your business or our members, so some action is needed. Please consider the following.

If you would like to keep your forum active, please create some activity by posting information about your products. Suggested topics are sales, specials, new product announcements, detailed information on specific items, usage instructions, tips & tricks related to your products, photos, links to your YouTube channel, Instagram, Twitter, etc. Remember, your vendor forum is the one place at IAP where you can freely engage in conversation about your products including posting specifications, links, and prices. When you post a thread, it shows up on the newsfeed on our front page. Where else can you get that kind of exposure to active pen makers at zero cost?

If you don't envision that some regular activity will occur in your forum, let's close it. There are two alternatives for you to make members aware of your presence.
  1. You can post in the For Sale Forum as often as you'd like to make us aware of specials, sales, etc. Threads can remain there for two weeks.
  2. You can also post a link in our resource section in the Vendor Catagory. (I'd suggest you do that regardless of your vendor forum status!)
Please respond to this message and let me know one of the following:
  1. You plan to use your vendor forum and will be posting there withing two weeks, and regularly thereafter
  2. You would like to close your forum. In that event, all content there will be removed from public view and archived
If I don't hear from you within two weeks, your forum will be closed.

Finally, I'd also be very interested to get your thoughts on how we could make our vendor forums (or other aspects of our community) more useful to you as a vendor and therefor of greater value to our members. As a vendor, you're a critical element of the pen making craft, and healthy relationships between you and our community benefits you and our members.

Thanks for your time and attention, and your continued support of the IAP community!

Best Regards - Jeff
 

jttheclockman

Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Messages
19,082
Location
NJ, USA.
Just as a followup to this thread and to keep you informed on what's happening.... I'll be sending the email below to the inactive vendor forum owners. I'm hoping that we can clean up the inactive forums and perhaps spark some activity. Thanks for your thoughts on this.

This little note seems to have awoken a few vendors from the past. Hopefully they follow through with their words this time and if they want to play here then step up their game and be part of this.
 

edicehouse

Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2011
Messages
3,515
Location
Suffolk, VA
I say get rid of the inactive ones, allow venders to answer questions in the open forum. Hey where can I get a blank that looks like this. However, vender a should not disparage venders b's product.

Maybe even have a section in the venders "previous venders" or something so if they come back, or someone trying to remember where they got something.
 

maxwell_smart007

Lead Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
6,705
Location
middle of nowhere in the great, white North
I say get rid of the inactive ones, allow venders to answer questions in the open forum. Hey where can I get a blank that looks like this. However, vender a should not disparage venders b's product.

This is the way it used to be, back in the day. The issue is that we ended up in a series of vendor wars, back-and-forth arguments, reported posts, etc. - three moderators couldn't keep up with all of it. Rules had to be developed to get some semblance of order - and we had to lock things down very tightly since everyone kept pushing the envelope - but I hope things have changed now.
 

edicehouse

Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2011
Messages
3,515
Location
Suffolk, VA
This is the way it used to be, back in the day. The issue is that we ended up in a series of vendor wars, back-and-forth arguments, reported posts, etc. - three moderators couldn't keep up with all of it. Rules had to be developed to get some semblance of order - and we had to lock things down very tightly since everyone kept pushing the envelope - but I hope things have changed now.
I saw that, well not the reports. However if I ask where I can get a specific blank or pen kit, and vendor A says I have it here, that is fine (IMO). Even if 5 vendors say they have it, as long as one isn't bashing another.
 

Curly

Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
4,828
Location
Saskatoon SK., Canada.
That was how some of it would go but they would bash each other and it was ugly. Even a post in SOYPlike here is a pen I made would fall apart when someone would ask them where they got the blank from and all the "we have it" would come in and ours is better yada yada. No threads were immune and no vendors were above the shameful behaviour.
 

jeff

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 5, 2003
Messages
8,970
Location
Westlake, OH, USA.
That was how some of it would go but they would bash each other and it was ugly. Even a post in SOYPlike here is a pen I made would fall apart when someone would ask them where they got the blank from and all the "we have it" would come in and ours is better yada yada. No threads were immune and no vendors were above the shameful behaviour.
It was "entertaining" o_O

Member) Where can I get a left-hand whats-it for my lathe?
Vendor A) We sell it.
Vendor B) We sell it, but cheaper
Vendor C) We sell it, ours is better
Vendor D) We sell it, and by the way A is crap, B is a safety hazard, and C is a rip-off of mine

My PM Box was a mess. Accusations, nasty words, threats, promises to "destroy me", whatever that meant.

I like the quiet, respectful place we are today much better, but I'm always looking for incremental improvements. The unpleasant vendors are gone, and I honestly feel that we could remove all restrictions and chaos would not ensue. However, what I've always felt is that customers voices "carry further". What I personally like to see in response to a question is a member saying "they have those over at XYZ". That's an endorsement! Also, vendors are free to PM (oops! "start a conversation" now ;)) someone who posts a question with information about what they sell. That member can come back and post about it too.
 

ed4copies

Local Chapter Manager
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Messages
24,523
Location
Racine, WI, USA.
Just one observation: A public forum is kinda useless if all the information has to be relegated to "conversations". One-on-one takes a long time to reach a universe of members.
I prefer answering in my vendor forum, the op can choose to read or not as can all others!
 
Top Bottom