Thoughts on Dust Collection Set-Up

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IndySC

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Looking for critiques of my proposed primary dust collection system. Going to utilize my garage for working (primarily band saw, lathe, sander, with potential to add drill press and table saw in the future). Size of garage is 23' x 44' x 12'.

Start off with a Grizzly 3HP double bag system. Starts at 2300 CFM which should provide plenty of flow for fine dust particle collection.
https://www.grizzly.com/products/Gr...-Aluminum-Impeller-Polar-Bear-Series/G1030Z2P

Install a cyclone separator prior to the collector to utilize a two stage collection system.
https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-Grizzly-Growler-Cyclone-Separator/G0863

Set up should allow for 6" ducting to all equipment with adequate airflow. I don't think I will be using any equipment simultaneously and all equipment will be contained within a 23' x 12' x 12' area, so the runs shouldn't be too long.

Will add an additional air scrubber for fine particles, but still researching DIY vs. manufactured solutions.

Thoughts? Overkill?
 
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JimB

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In my opinion the bags are insufficient at only 2.5 microns. I would want it at 1 micron or better to catch the finest of the dust that makes it past the separator. The canister version of that DC would do that.

I’m not sure why you want/need the 2 bag system. If you are placing a separator before the DC then almost everything goes into the separator bin not the DC plastic bag.
 

IndySC

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In my opinion the bags are insufficient at only 2.5 microns. I would want it at 1 micron or better to catch the finest of the dust that makes it past the separator. The canister version of that DC would do that.

I’m not sure why you want/need the 2 bag system. If you are placing a separator before the DC then almost everything goes into the separator bin not the DC plastic bag.
Rationale for the two bag was based on the following:
-Cheaper than the canister system (marginal, basically the same).
-3hp vs 2hp motor
-2300cfm vs 1700 cfm

What I am giving up is the 2.5 micron vs 1 micron filtering, which I thought I could address with an air scrubber. As I have dove into the dust collection world, there are a whole bunch of different ways to skin this cat.

Do you think that the 1700 cfm canister paired with the separator would still provide sufficient suction to collect the fine dust emitted?
 
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Curly

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It's a long read but I suggest you read Bill Pentz's website if you haven't already done so. There is repetition but that is to make sure people that visit to read one aspect of dust collection get the important stuff.

The DC flow ratings used by sellers is just for a motor and impeller without ducting or filters and the readings taken from the centre of the airstream where it is fastest. So in reality the claimed airflows should be about half of what they publish at best.

Keep the use of flex hose to a minimum as it has about three times the drag of solid duct. So 10' of hose is 30' of duct.

Flow through a 4" duct is about 450 CFM at best and usually less, flex even lower. The 6" duct can move about 1200 CFM and that's why it is recommended if you want to grab the fine invisible dust you can't see with your eyes. Going from a 4" to 6" pipe will still only flow max 450 CFM in either direction as the 4" is the restriction. So stay with 6' all the way to a machine. If it has a 4" port and you can't/won't open it to a 6" then take a second 4" pipe and locate it at or above the machine to scrub the air around the machine. Actually you need three 4" pipes to flow the same as a 6". You also need to open a machine enough to allow air into the machine or the air can't get out. Two to three times the area in as out. So don't try to seal up a machine cabinet thinking it improves it.

A DC when not flowing the air has its highest static pressure and when wide open its lowest static pressure. As you vary the flow you vary the static pressure that can be plotted as a performance curve. That curve is useful to tell you how much flow you will have at the end of a ducting run. Unfortunately you don't get those performance curves from many companies. The more you add to the system affects its ability to flow air. So the length of ducting, elbows, flex hose all reduce the static pressure thus the flow through the system and dirty filters reduce the flow further. As long as there is enough static pressure left over after all the restrictions are added up you have flow. If you add too much it won't suck adequately. Adding a cyclone or separator adds more air restriction, the amount depends on the design. The better design like a Bill Pentz / Clearvue or its imitators will have a loss of a couple inches of static pressure. A separator lid/box as much as 4" or 5" of loss. So what I'm trying to say is be careful adding stuff to the system if it isn't correctly sized for it. From the little I know of cyclone design that Grizzly add on cyclone will have more drag and poorer separation than you would like.

At some point someone is going to tell you using two 45º fittings is better than a 90º elbow. That isn't true if the 90º has a 1.5 radius or bigger. See page 54.

Using an air scrubber to clean the air means unless you are wearing a mask all the time you are filtering that dust with your lungs. It hangs in the air for hours. Better to put the money towards a bigger DC with better filtration and capture the dust at source.

You will also see people using a cheap fan type anemometer to prove they are getting huge flows with their system. They are inaccurate and give much higher, 30%+, than the actual flows. A hot wire anemometer or pitot tube type give more accurate results. They have to be rated to handle the airflows found in DC's.

A bell mouth hood is the best shape for capturing dust as at the end of a duct at the lathe or the attachment to a machine. You can get as much as a 5% to 10% flow increase compared to a bare pipe/hose. It is better than other shapes like cones etc. A 6" bell mouth video.

If you really want to learn more the best forum is a part of Woodwork Forum, an Aussie site. Lots of good info in it and the moderator is very knowledgeable. I think you might have to join to see the pictures, I can't remember. :rolleyes: https://www.woodworkforums.com/f200

If you want clarifications or any more info just ask.
 

JimB

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Rationale for the two bag was based on the following:
-Cheaper than the canister system (marginal, basically the same).
-3hp vs 2hp motor
-2300cfm vs 1700 cfm

What I am giving up is the 2.5 micron vs 1 micron filtering, which I thought I could address with an air scrubber. As I have dove into the dust collection world, there are a whole bunch of different ways to skin this cat.

Do you think that the 1700 cfm canister paired with the separator would still provide sufficient suction to collect the fine dust emitted?
Personally I would sacrifice some CFM for a much better filter. 1 micron is much better than 2.5 Micron. Remember, it is the smallest particles that are the most dangerous to you as they linger in the air the longest. The goal of a DC is to collect the fine dust at the source and keep it collected. If your filter bag is just letting it escape back into the air then you are breathing it And you have created a second source of fine dust. Yes, an air scrubber will certainly help but they are filtering all the air in your shop so that fine dust will linger a long time and you will be breathing it.

another excellent source of information is Oneida-air.com. They make the best systems available (IMO) and this it is all they do.
 

IndySC

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It's a long read but I suggest you read Bill Pentz's website if you haven't already done so. There is repetition but that is to make sure people that visit to read one aspect of dust collection get the important stuff.

The DC flow ratings used by sellers is just for a motor and impeller without ducting or filters and the readings taken from the centre of the airstream where it is fastest. So in reality the claimed airflows should be about half of what they publish at best.

Keep the use of flex hose to a minimum as it has about three times the drag of solid duct. So 10' of hose is 30' of duct.

Flow through a 4" duct is about 450 CFM at best and usually less, flex even lower. The 6" duct can move about 1200 CFM and that's why it is recommended if you want to grab the fine invisible dust you can't see with your eyes. Going from a 4" to 6" pipe will still only flow max 450 CFM in either direction as the 4" is the restriction. So stay with 6' all the way to a machine. If it has a 4" port and you can't/won't open it to a 6" then take a second 4" pipe and locate it at or above the machine to scrub the air around the machine. Actually you need three 4" pipes to flow the same as a 6". You also need to open a machine enough to allow air into the machine or the air can't get out. Two to three times the area in as out. So don't try to seal up a machine cabinet thinking it improves it.

A DC when not flowing the air has its highest static pressure and when wide open its lowest static pressure. As you vary the flow you vary the static pressure that can be plotted as a performance curve. That curve is useful to tell you how much flow you will have at the end of a ducting run. Unfortunately you don't get those performance curves from many companies. The more you add to the system affects its ability to flow air. So the length of ducting, elbows, flex hose all reduce the static pressure thus the flow through the system and dirty filters reduce the flow further. As long as there is enough static pressure left over after all the restrictions are added up you have flow. If you add too much it won't suck adequately. Adding a cyclone or separator adds more air restriction, the amount depends on the design. The better design like a Bill Pentz / Clearvue or its imitators will have a loss of a couple inches of static pressure. A separator lid/box as much as 4" or 5" of loss. So what I'm trying to say is be careful adding stuff to the system if it isn't correctly sized for it. From the little I know of cyclone design that Grizzly add on cyclone will have more drag and poorer separation than you would like.

At some point someone is going to tell you using two 45º fittings is better than a 90º elbow. That isn't true if the 90º has a 1.5 radius or bigger. See page 54.

Using an air scrubber to clean the air means unless you are wearing a mask all the time you are filtering that dust with your lungs. It hangs in the air for hours. Better to put the money towards a bigger DC with better filtration and capture the dust at source.

You will also see people using a cheap fan type anemometer to prove they are getting huge flows with their system. They are inaccurate and give much higher, 30%+, than the actual flows. A hot wire anemometer or pitot tube type give more accurate results. They have to be rated to handle the airflows found in DC's.

A bell mouth hood is the best shape for capturing dust as at the end of a duct at the lathe or the attachment to a machine. You can get as much as a 5% to 10% flow increase compared to a bare pipe/hose. It is better than other shapes like cones etc. A 6" bell mouth video.

If you really want to learn more the best forum is a part of Woodwork Forum, an Aussie site. Lots of good info in it and the moderator is very knowledgeable. I think you might have to join to see the pictures, I can't remember. :rolleyes: https://www.woodworkforums.com/f200

If you want clarifications or any more info just ask.
Thank you for the well thought out and informative reply. I have made my way around Bill's site for the last couple of days, thus getting me on the bandwagon for max CFM and 6" ducting. Still need to map out runs and run the calculations on static pressure. Good point on the air scrubber as it's probably best to trap the fine dust at its source and not allow to recirculate through the environment. Wife and kids utilize the garage as much as I do, so maintaining their health along with mine is the #1 priority. Like the use of a bell mouth hood, and will definitely look into them further.

Hypothetical scenario for you. Given a budget of $1500, what would you install knowing what you know now.
 

IndySC

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Personally I would sacrifice some CFM for a much better filter. 1 micron is much better than 2.5 Micron. Remember, it is the smallest particles that are the most dangerous to you as they linger in the air the longest. The goal of a DC is to collect the fine dust at the source and keep it collected. If your filter bag is just letting it escape back into the air then you are breathing it And you have created a second source of fine dust. Yes, an air scrubber will certainly help but they are filtering all the air in your shop so that fine dust will linger a long time and you will be breathing it.

another excellent source of information is Oneida-air.com. They make the best systems available (IMO) and this it is all they do.
After chewing on the idea, I agree that getting the better filter would be my choice as well. I will check out Oneida, thank you for the recommendation.
 

Curly

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"Hypothetical scenario for you. Given a budget of $1500, what would you install knowing what you know now."

Because I had a 3hp bagger that came with 30 micron bags that I later changed out to 1 micron bags and still had leaks etc. I left it behind for a friend to flog when we moved here to Saskatoon. Because of the research and reading I have done over the years I went with a Clear Vue CVMax with a 3 phase motor to install in my 640 square foot shop. I also got a Variable Frequency Drive (VFD) so I can run it at 65 cycles for extra suction. I wanted to be able to use two machines at a time or all out on the lathe. So I would say to up your budget a little and get a CV1800. The performance is leaps and bounds ahead of what you were considering. The basic machine is several hundred more than your budget but you'll still have to add the ducting costs to that.
 

IndySC

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"Hypothetical scenario for you. Given a budget of $1500, what would you install knowing what you know now."

Because I had a 3hp bagger that came with 30 micron bags that I later changed out to 1 micron bags and still had leaks etc. I left it behind for a friend to flog when we moved here to Saskatoon. Because of the research and reading I have done over the years I went with a Clear Vue CVMax with a 3 phase motor to install in my 640 square foot shop. I also got a Variable Frequency Drive (VFD) so I can run it at 65 cycles for extra suction. I wanted to be able to use two machines at a time or all out on the lathe. So I would say to up your budget a little and get a CV1800. The performance is leaps and bounds ahead of what you were considering. The basic machine is several hundred more than your budget but you'll still have to add the ducting costs to that.
Can you go into a little more into the VFD and set up? I'm guessing you wired it so that you could run a 3 phase motor on a single phase residential panel? Did you sub panel to the location of the dust collector or already have a circuit in your current box which could handle the load? Installation of the 3 phase and VFD intrigues me.
 

Curly

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The VFD is the same one Aussies use to boost their 50 cycle power to 60 cycle like ours otherwise they loose 20% of the airflow. Some boost the cycles to 65. The VFD is wired to a circuit in the shop and it changes the 220 single phase to 220 three phase delta. You power the DC on and off from the VFD and can set the speed or vary it if you want with a knob. You can also program it to soft start and ramp up to speed over a longer duration so there isn't a power surge like you would get with a single phase motor does when you flip the switch. Useful in marginal circuits. It can also be set to slow the motor fast but if you do it too quickly you need to add braking resisters. Not needed on a DC but to slow down a saw more quickly can be useful. A VFD can only run one machine at a time and if you want to turn off a machine like a saw with the buttons it has then you need to hook them up in the VFD so it still controls the motor. Shut a motor off after the VFD and the VFD will loose its blue smoke. Using a VFD and three phase motor lets you turn the DC on and off as much as you need. A single phase motor builds up heat and Clear Vue recommend you limit starts to 6 per hour for best motor life. The VFD is made by Powtran in China and was about $170US with another $80 or so for shipping by FedEx. I purchased through Alibaba but wouldn't hesitate to buy direct from them. The Aussie Clear Vue site has instructions on how to set up and program the VFD.

I have to admit I am still setting it up. Yup slow. The cost of pipe here is obscene. My shop and garage below have a 100 amp subpanel off the 200 amp house panel I'm the garage. I have a bunch of 110V 20amp, 220V 20amp, and 30 amp circuits and a 220V 40amp circuit or two (can't remember actually). So I have power up the wazoo. Going 3 phase and VFD added about $400Can over using a single phase. You don't need to go that route. If you ever get a 3 phase industrial machine like a saw or sander cheap you can use it by adding a VFD.
 

IndySC

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The VFD is the same one Aussies use to boost their 50 cycle power to 60 cycle like ours otherwise they loose 20% of the airflow. Some boost the cycles to 65. The VFD is wired to a circuit in the shop and it changes the 220 single phase to 220 three phase delta. You power the DC on and off from the VFD and can set the speed or vary it if you want with a knob. You can also program it to soft start and ramp up to speed over a longer duration so there isn't a power surge like you would get with a single phase motor does when you flip the switch. Useful in marginal circuits. It can also be set to slow the motor fast but if you do it too quickly you need to add braking resisters. Not needed on a DC but to slow down a saw more quickly can be useful. A VFD can only run one machine at a time and if you want to turn off a machine like a saw with the buttons it has then you need to hook them up in the VFD so it still controls the motor. Shut a motor off after the VFD and the VFD will loose its blue smoke. Using a VFD and three phase motor lets you turn the DC on and off as much as you need. A single phase motor builds up heat and Clear Vue recommend you limit starts to 6 per hour for best motor life. The VFD is made by Powtran in China and was about $170US with another $80 or so for shipping by FedEx. I purchased through Alibaba but wouldn't hesitate to buy direct from them. The Aussie Clear Vue site has instructions on how to set up and program the VFD.

I have to admit I am still setting it up. Yup slow. The cost of pipe here is obscene. My shop and garage below have a 100 amp subpanel off the 200 amp house panel I'm the garage. I have a bunch of 110V 20amp, 220V 20amp, and 30 amp circuits and a 220V 40amp circuit or two (can't remember actually). So I have power up the wazoo. Going 3 phase and VFD added about $400Can over using a single phase. You don't need to go that route. If you ever get a 3 phase industrial machine like a saw or sander cheap you can use it by adding a VFD.
Appreciate the detail. Sounds like given my set up that the single phase Clear Vue would suit just fine. You've given me a lot to ponder and I thank you for your response. Might actually have a shop up and running by summer!
 

darrin1200

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This is a video I found that takes a Harbour Frieght Dust collector motor and impeller along with an Oneida Super Dust Deputy to make a cyclone. Doing the math, I figure this would come in at about half the cost of an inexpensive (Craftex or King Industrial) actual cyclone.

 

Curly

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I mentioned earlier those anemometers are not accurate for measuring airflow for DC's. So the numbers he gets are higher than actual. To be done correctly the readings need to be taken in the middle of a test duct that is at least 10 pipe diameters long using a probe that doesn't disturb the airflow. Readings across the duct are taken and then averaged to get a proper reading.

The original impeller has the blades curved the wrong way and that is in part why it was better with the replacement.

That setup isn't going to catch the fine, under 10 micron dust where it is created. While it will pick up sawdust you can see and make the shop look tidy, it won't keep the harmful dust from becoming airborne. If a tidy shop is all you want then it is fine.
 

IndySC

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This is a video I found that takes a Harbour Frieght Dust collector motor and impeller along with an Oneida Super Dust Deputy to make a cyclone. Doing the math, I figure this would come in at about half the cost of an inexpensive (Craftex or King Industrial) actual cyclone.

Thank you for sharing the link. Love the thought process behind this system. Don't know it will work for my application, as I am specifically looking to eliminate fine dust at the source, but gives me other options to consider.
 

budnder

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Curious if you gave any thought to exhausting air outside, rather than filter it? I don't ever see that discussed too much, thought it's what I do (for better or worse). Obviously not practical for many locations, and not as simple as it sounds as you have to account for how and where you'll replace the air you're exhausting (sucking it in from your gas water heater's exhaust would not be good...).
 

Curly

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The Aussies are heavily into having the DC outside or exhausting it as you suggest. It isn't too practical for me as we are just getting above freezing during the day (snowed yesterday) so only have at best 5 months a year that it is practical. Those in oppressively hot and humid climates don't want to blow the conditioned air out. It has the benefit of removing the dust with none escaping from leaks or fines passing through filters. Also when the entire machine is outside the shop there is no spillage in the shop from emptying the waste and you have more room since the DC isn't using that floorspace. You also don't need filters if using a decent cyclone which improves your airflow. The downside being silencing the noise if you live near others and having to have a small shed attached to house it. Still have to deal with the noise when the machine is inside but you can't complain to yourself. ;) I'd do it if I lived in a warmer climate.
 

IndySC

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Curious if you gave any thought to exhausting air outside, rather than filter it? I don't ever see that discussed too much, thought it's what I do (for better or worse). Obviously not practical for many locations, and not as simple as it sounds as you have to account for how and where you'll replace the air you're exhausting (sucking it in from your gas water heater's exhaust would not be good...).
I thought about this, but I didn't want to lose my heat in the winter. When weather permits, I will pop open the garage doors and let some air flow.
 
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