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My 5 year old has a stoplight in his classroom at school.
1st offense Green Light(warning)
2nd offense Yellow Light(minor discipline-shortened recess)
3rd offense Red Light(loss of play time-stays in while others go out)
Next offense = Detention

If we are going to act as children maybe this would work.

I've been on the "I'm out of here" train. Fortunately I found a return ticket and a better sense of what is important on the train car.
 
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Thank you Roy for this post. Had to log in for this one, as someone who is fairly new to this forum I can't find words to express how important it is to those of us who love making pens. I spent many months lurking and learned alot from some of the names mentioned. I do hope they all come back as I think each member of this forum is an asset to us all. We all have something to contribute but I think it should be done with courtesy and civility. My guess is we would all really miss this forum if it were gone. Thanks to all for sharing your knowledge with the rest of us. Lets work hard to get those members who have pulled back re-engaged.
 
I agree that people get into a dogpile attack mode pretty quickly. Someone doesn't like what someone else says and it's fightin time. Let us also think about the fact that when a post is made, it is made in written form, not verbal form. Being written, means that it does not have the emotions that come from voice, and it is also likely to be shorter and possibly a bit less thought out. A person can often read more into a post than what is either there, or intended to be there. Many times, all parties involved in a post are guilty of bad judgment.
 
Although a new person myself I think our Mods do an exceptional job already and I do not want to increase their work load for a few bad apples. I think the true answer is self moderation not only ones self but we need to remind others that something may have been said in the wrong way. I have seen post that makes me irritated and I just choose to ignore or bypass that thread. I am sorry for all those talented people who left but them to have the ability to ignore a thread or poster or comment. I don't believe anyone that's a member that wants to be a part of this family can be driven away by a faceless intruder. I think things here go in cycles as do people and in time those who want to be here will, the others will leave after a while regardless..
 
I myself have met some good friends on this forum and without this forum I would not be where I am at today with my hobby of turning pens. the wealth of knowledge here is not readly avable anywhere else. That being said we should not allow post that will turn these great pen makers away. We need them. I personaly think that the moderators should kill a thread that is in bad taste. PM some one who offends and let it be the end of it. This forum was created to help those that need information and suggestions. we need to continue to share ideas, just my own 2 cents worth...................................
 
Thanks Roy. I have learned many things here and have had the privilege of seeing some of the work of master pen artists in person. I hope the lost masters will come back as I and many others have much to learn. If the masters are reading this I hope to see you posting again soon.
Mark
 
seawolf said:
Thanks Roy. I have learned many things here and have had the privilege of seeing some of the work of master pen artists in person. I hope the lost masters will come back as I and many others have much to learn. If the masters are reading this I hope to see you posting again soon.
Mark
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Well said.
 
Great post Roy, Like many people have said, it only seems to be a few that spoil it for everyone else. I am a very get to the point kind of person, these are the rules and its black and white no gray. I think the mod should PM the individual and let them know what they did if they don't get the point don't let them post. If you honestly look at who post's a true contribution its only a hand full of members you see religiously. No offense to any one but those are the people that I want to learn from. This is a great place to learn and has a bunch of great people just a few bad seeds.

Thanks to all
 
I'll go ahead and apologize now. My transmission that engages my brain before unleashing my keyboard finger is frequently broken!

If I do offend, it is purely unintentional. I think the IAP is one of the best things the Internet has to offer. Additionally, I respect EVERY member here and each opinion here, especially those opinions that differ from mine.

By looking at things from another's point of view frequently allows me to find new and different solutions to problems.

I have also found that the IAP members that I have met personally and interact with regularly are some of the best and most caring people I have ever met.

Those of you who have never put your foot into your mouth can cast the first shoe :)
 
Agreed

I'm new to IAP and have learned a lot. I have seen some things which made me wonder. I hope people will heed your suggestion. Looking forward to many more learning experiences.
 
I think self moderation is fine as long as it is just that...SELF MODERATION, ie, moderate your OWN posts. When folks start trying to play moderator in a thread, it ofter makes things worse. We are all adults here (well most of us!) and none of us really want to be told what to do by our peers.

It would really be best to just hit the yellow triangle and report a post when you think it has crossed the line. I now have a team of moderators so the reaction time should be much quicker. It may be more peaceful to just let the moderators do their jobs.
 
Curtis and Jeff, I think that you do a great job. You have a very difficult position. I have worked in the evenings now for 31 years in Law Enforcement. When I first started we had a rather liberal boss. Whenever you had to "lay hands" on an individual you had a 50-50 chance of going to an Anger Management class. Let's just say, I spent my fair share of time in class. In retrospect, I do think that I did walk away with a better understanding of human nature, and that understanding is that you are not going to be able to control peoples emotions or in this case posts.

I hate to say it, but there are people that post annoying and snide comments, and my guess is they do not realize it, don't care, or feel bad after it has been posted but will continue to do it anyway, it is their nature. Then you have the people that were pushed, snubbed, or ignored, that complain about that and post a retaliation. Bottom line is, if we could control people, their moods, and their snide comments for whatever excuse, I would be out of a job. (At 53 I am ok with that too....) We are going to continue to have these types of individuals and we are going to continue to have the few whose feelings are hurt and go away, there is simply no answer for that. While I am sorry that some of the great pen makers are upset at the direction the site has gone, IMHO they fail to see the big picture of humanity as a whole.

Curtis, I have read many of these posts and never intended to post in any of them, I am here to learn and further my pen making abilities not to participate in complaint posts. I participate in complaint issues every night. So, I have broken my own rule, but I want you to know you are doing a fine job with a difficult situation. You are an intelligent individual and you do things from a common sense point of view. Please just continue to do things as you do them now. IMHO this is what it takes.

Please do not take this as a post from an all-knowing postion, just my opinion. For me, I just intend to avoid comment to things that annoy me.
Moke
 
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Moke,
Please do not take this post as an argument with you, because it is not meant to be. I just found that your post mentioned a few things together that I felt like responding to.

moke said:
...... We are going to continue to have these types of individuals and we are going to continue to have the few whose feelings are hurt and go away, there is simply no answer for that.

Well, actually there is but it will take some forum policy changes, perhaps injecting some morals and ethics clauses then taking a "not so forgiving" stance with policy violators. I believe most of the flair ups continue simply because those stirring the pot realize they can get away with it so why not have some fun, and sadly it appears that some do this just for kicks! Having the guilty parties apologize after the fact, time after time, does nothing to remedy the problem.


While I am sorry that some of the great pen makers are upset at the direction the site has gone, IMHO they fail to see the big picture of humanity as a whole......

Not being one of the great pen makers I wouldn't know about a big picture BUT, I'm fed up with logging in now and then on a SLOW connection to see what some of my friends are up to and to see their latest creations, only to see all the nasty arguments, mud slinging, free legal recommendations, right fighting and accusations flying all over..... almost daily (or at least every time I log in).

If this "new direction" is part of the big picture for the forum, count me out and I can well understand why others feel the same way. There was a day when none of this nonsense existed on the forum, just pen making, so it CAN be fixed!
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Just my opinion based on my observations over the past three + years, no attacks, no flames, no name calling implied or intended.
 
MesquiteMan said:
I think self moderation is fine as long as it is just that...SELF MODERATION, ie, moderate your OWN posts. When folks start trying to play moderator in a thread, it ofter makes things worse. We are all adults here (well most of us!) and none of us really want to be told what to do by our peers.

It would really be best to just hit the yellow triangle and report a post when you think it has crossed the line. I now have a team of moderators so the reaction time should be much quicker. It may be more peaceful to just let the moderators do their jobs.
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The Yellow triangle is a great tool. Education is key. Until just recently I didn't notice the yellow triangle in the lower left side of each post let as long what it was for. I know it's in the notes and rules somewhere. But heck I have to admit I am guilty of not reading instructions.

Some how we need to get the word out about that little yellow triangle in the lower left hand side of each post.
 
Roy your soap box has served you well. I agree 110% I have only been on IAP for a year and have gotten so many great hints and good direction and hope I have given a few. This is a great site, lets keep it that way.
 
bruce119 said:
MesquiteMan said:
I think self moderation is fine as long as it is just that...SELF MODERATION, ie, moderate your OWN posts. When folks start trying to play moderator in a thread, it ofter makes things worse. We are all adults here (well most of us!) and none of us really want to be told what to do by our peers.

It would really be best to just hit the yellow triangle and report a post when you think it has crossed the line. I now have a team of moderators so the reaction time should be much quicker. It may be more peaceful to just let the moderators do their jobs.
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The Yellow triangle is a great tool. Education is key. Until just recently I didn't notice the yellow triangle in the lower left side of each post let as long what it was for. I know it's in the notes and rules somewhere. But heck I have to admit I am guilty of not reading instructions.

Some how we need to get the word out about that little yellow triangle in the lower left hand side of each post.
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Bruce,

I have posted at least 2 different threads explaining the yellow triangle and how to use it. One of the threads even had a picture with arrows and everything! I have also mentioned it in NUMEROUS posts I have made in bad threads!
 
We seem to have this conversation a lot lately. I agree it is time to come up with a solution. Doesn't the Australian wood forum have a system for "reputation points" I wonder how it works for them. Would the threat of being banned for a time or permanently be enough to get someone to calm down?
 
Displaced Canadian said:
We seem to have this conversation a lot lately. I agree it is time to come up with a solution. Doesn't the Australian wood forum have a system for "reputation points" I wonder how it works for them. Would the threat of being banned for a time or permanently be enough to get someone to calm down?
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Having been involved in some large forums, the threat of a mod wielding the ban stick doesn't do much. Unfortunately.
 
You all say 3-5 years ago no one bickered and got along just great. As more people become involved you get more opinions, and you know what they say about opinions, everyones got one. I believe most start with someone who is uneducated about the subject chimes in, someone's feelings get hurt and the mud slinging begins. I like the post in general but my question would be how many members are on the site now compared to a couple of years ago?

I say everyone should thicken up their skin, take a Happy Pill and not take everything so seriously.

Agreed there should be no mud slinging, name calling and so on, but have you taken a good hard look at the world out there?
 
Texatdurango said:
Not being one of the great pen makers I wouldn't know about a big picture BUT, I'm fed up with logging in now and then on a SLOW connection to see what some of my friends are up to and to see their latest creations, only to see all the nasty arguments, mud slinging, free legal recommendations, right fighting and accusations flying all over..... almost daily (or at least every time I log in).

If this "new direction" is part of the big picture for the forum, count me out and I can well understand why others feel the same way. There was a day when none of this nonsense existed on the forum, just pen making, so it CAN be fixed!
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I usually try not to post on any of these types of threads. This one seems to still be going in a positive direction. I have wondered about the absense of some members. Cav and Skiprat among others. Figured they were busy with other things. I try to stay outta the way for the most part. Since joining I have noticed your posting has slowed a bit too. Figured that had to do with your move. I still consider myself a new penturner working on better results with each pen.

As far as you not being one of the great pen turners, thats a bunch of hooey! I've seen your work and you do outstanding work that in itself makes you one of the greats. But the help and knowledge you've been willing to share to myself and I am sure others is greatly appreciated. Our chapter lost a great asset when you moved.

As far as the bickering going on. I dont have any easy answers, but I would agree something needs to be done.
 
MrPukaShell said:
You all say 3-5 years ago no one bickered and got along just great. As more people become involved you get more opinions, and you know what they say about opinions, everyones got one. I believe most start with someone who is uneducated about the subject chimes in, someone's feelings get hurt and the mud slinging begins. I like the post in general but my question would be how many members are on the site now compared to a couple of years ago?

I say everyone should thicken up their skin, take a Happy Pill and not take everything so seriously.

Agreed there should be no mud slinging, name calling and so on, but have you taken a good hard look at the world out there?
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Good thoughts Robert but I don't think "everyone should thicken up their skin" since everyone isn't involved in the problematic threads, it's usually the same people over and over.

I'm the one who compared the present to the "good ole days" and while I didn't mean to imply that all was peaches and cream a few years ago, the flair ups were generally minor in nature and nothing like the slug fests that go on today that usually wind up being deleted.

As I read your post I got to wondering why there was so much arguing these days and a thought occured as I was trying to find a common denominator and a thought occured.

Several years ago there were only a couple members selling things on the forum. Today the number of member vendors has increased dramatically, with some only here to sell their goods and many of the thread wars seem to stem from who did what first or who "stole" who"s idea.

And I think there is a bit of bad blood between some folks without anything needed to set them off other than an apponent making a post.

While we're all trying to fix the forum, perhaps having a look at why some folks are here then having a look at how they participate might reveal some problems that could be fixed.

Just thinking........! :wink:
 
MrPukaShell said:
You all say 3-5 years ago no one bickered and got along just great. As more people become involved you get more opinions, and you know what they say about opinions, everyones got one. I believe most start with someone who is uneducated about the subject chimes in, someone's feelings get hurt and the mud slinging begins. I like the post in general but my question would be how many members are on the site now compared to a couple of years ago?

I say everyone should thicken up their skin, take a Happy Pill and not take everything so seriously.

Agreed there should be no mud slinging, name calling and so on, but have you taken a good hard look at the world out there?
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I've been a member for a little over a year. As far as I can remember it wasn't like this at that time. Seems like the constant arguing over little things all have been going on for the last 6 months. Seems to have gotten worse since the last birthday bash.
 
vBulletin does have the reputation points system but that is pretty much worthless except for a feel good thing. Rep points are give by members to other members but really does nothing except help some folks win a popularity contest.

There is another feature of vBulletin that may be time to implement...the infraction system. This is where certain conduct items are assigned points. Once a certain level of points is reached, you are automatically banned for a time period. Right now, there are no consequences for bad behavior. You get a post deleted for violating the TOS? So what. Post another and get it deleted again, big deal. We seldom ban anyone and some guys are repeat "offenders". Using the points system would make each of us responsible for our own actions and our own bannings, should they occur.
 
MesquiteMan said:
There is another feature of vBulletin that may be time to implement...the infraction system. This is where certain conduct items are assigned points. Once a certain level of points is reached, you are automatically banned for a time period. Right now, there are no consequences for bad behavior. You get a post deleted for violating the TOS? So what. Post another and get it deleted again, big deal. We seldom ban anyone and some guys are repeat "offenders". Using the points system would make each of us responsible for our own actions and our own bannings, should they occur.
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Man, What a sad world to some extent that this must happen. I don't understand why people feel the need to put others on the chopping block. I don't think people need "thicker skin" I just think people need to grow up. I can't believe that adults need to be treated like children on the school grounds and get time outs. I am not saying that this is a bad way of controlling this matter since people can't seem to get along, just don't understand why attitudes can't be checked at the door. Treat each other the way you would want to be treated is how I have started looking at things years ago. Believe me it works. JMHO.
 
I say everyone should thicken up their skin, take a Happy Pill and not take everything so seriously.

I don't see thick skin or happy pills as being a remedy for rudeness, but I might be persuaded.

Agreed there should be no mud slinging, name calling and so on, but have you taken a good hard look at the world out there?

I fail to see the corollary between existing in a world where rudeness and arrogance are observed and my being a guest on a forum, but I might be persuaded.
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Some men see things as they are and say why - I dream things that never were and say why not. - G. B. Shaw
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Of course, others may be of a different mind.
 
One of my favorite quotes is from Bertrand Russell:

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.

All of us are fools and fanatics about some issue but this is a pen making forum. Unless someone's health or safety is at risk, I can't think of any reason to forcefully refute another's assertion about pen crafting/sales.

Be tolerant of others' views even when they are obviously wrong! :smile:
 
JimMc7 said:
One of my favorite quotes is from Bertrand Russell:

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.

All of us are fools and fanatics about some issue but this is a pen making forum. Unless someone's health or safety is at risk, I can't think of any reason to forcefully refute another's assertion about pen crafting/sales.

Be tolerant of others' views even when they are obviously wrong! :smile:
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That reminds me of a song I know.

One line says:
"Yeah, there's a problem with the world
And the problem with the world is me"

Another says:
"So I will look no further than a mirror
That's where the offender hides"
 
This thread is a repeat of several over the last year. I agree with Roy in his original posting. I have thought a lot about this issue. I often don't comment in some threads because they are so full of animosity and rudeness. I think that responding, often only gives the offender more fodder and heats up the fire.
I think that it can be disheartening to think that adults must be monitored and banned because they have forgotten their manners and can't play well with others. I know, as Roy stated, that some have left because they don't want to deal or put up with the behavior. When such events occur it decreases the pool of knowledge and we all have end up losing.
 
Cindy that was put very well but the question we all ask is what can we do? I joined a little over a year ago and it seemed like just a laid back forum for pen discussions. There was a play room for us just starting to ask all our redundant questions and answered by those who could tolerate the constant Barrage. There was also a advanced room where the BIG GUNs discussed the finer points us new turners have never even heard or thought of yet. This seems like it has all blended into one big room and getting louder all the time. Just what is the long term answer or is there one?
 
I have been one to let it get out of control. I have felt offended and have offended a few on here myself. Sorry Curtis! But it all comes down to everyone getting off of there high horse, stop pointing fingers and lighten up a bit (present company included).

My web browser has this page set as one of my Home Pages. I see a good amount of the posts and I would say that 99.9% of them are not negative. However I once heard that it takes 10 compliments to overcome a criticism. For the most part this site is Lilly white, any blemish or black spot screams out at us. We all need to use the common sense God gave us, swallow our pride, bite our tongues, and move on.

That and $5.50 will buy you a Latte at Starbucks.

Rob
 
Don't Read

I'm still at a loss as to why on earth anyone would follow a thread that they think is not relavent or they think has gotten out of hand....Or why people will make comments in a thread simply to say they think it isn't a worth while discussion. For goodness sakes, if you don't like a thread don't follow it. Others must like it or it will just die of it's own accord.

Some of us get something out of threads that others don't...that is just to be expected.

It seems pretty easy to me to look through the forums that are of interest, pick out the threads that seem to be of interest to me and go check the first couple of posts. If they are interesting I follow if they aren't I don't.
 
I will be the first to admit I am an idiot. I too have either overacted to something said or done. It so easy to say I am right and you are wrong . But something I need to work on is shut my mouth and keep my fingers off the keyboard. I know I have chimed in on previous post and I should not have. If I have offended anyone please I ask for your forgiveness. I also ask that if I offend you please send me a note . I don't wish for anyone to have hard feelings towards me and I don't want to have ill feelings towards anyone.
 
Yes, think twice before you punch the key. Here is what happened to me last week. A friend that brings me antler, ivory and other stuff for pens dropped by on Wednesday and told me about a Laser engraver in Willis, just five miles away from where my shop is located. Well Thursday I took a antler blank to him to have it engraved. He charged $5.00 for the name and said he would call me when it was ready, which most likely be no later than Saturday. Well I waited and on Tuesday my friend stopped by to pick up completed pens at which time I announced my displeasure at the man not having called me with my completed pen blank. So yesterday I called him and he said the blank was ready the day after I had left it with him and he had tried to call me but got a disconnect. I went to pick up the blank and asked for the card with the phone number on it. Sure 'nuff, I had given him an old card with a bad number.
It wasn't his fault. The error was all mine. I had to beat it back home and call my friend to tell him I was in error. He was the only one that I had besmirched the good mans name. My friend took it very well and all is right with the world.
But the lesson was there and very clear. Think twice, speak once. :rolleyes:
 
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