The Rotating Clip Phenomenon

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TonyL

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Well it is no secret why it happens, but after a while my clips on some kits start to rotate around the retention ring (whatever is suppose to hold the clip in place). I have tried, CA, blue loctite, and recently red loctite. I do understand that loctite is designed for threads and I am applying it to smooth surfaces - but the friction fit should be plenty. I now apply it (the red) to all my pens clips and retention rings. I have been through 2 pen presses and the lathe inserts. I even bought new bottle of red loctite, just in case the first one was bad. I even let it sit 24 hour (per the instructions) under pressure.

Any have a solution for this? Maybe stop making the kits that I have a problem with (executive, patriot and the PSI version of the patriot). I could try epoxy I guess.

Thanks for reading.
 
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magpens

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This issue is one that frustrates my pen-making as well, and I have posted a thread to this effect fairly recently.

Besides the kits that Tony mentions above, there are others ... quite a number, actually ... that present this problem/challenge.

I think the only reliable solution for us is, as Tony suggests, to avoid the troublesome kits.

In my opinion, kit manufacturers should design their kits so that the clip does not rotate.

I prefer to use a kit in which the clip is pre-attached to the top finial, but that criterion severely limits the choice of kit.

Quite apart from the poor aesthetics of a rotating clip, the rotation can actually do damage to the barrel, and, obviously, this risk can and does damage the pen's beauty. . I am thinking of those kits that have a clip which has a more "pointed" contact with the barrel, like the Executive . . But even some of those kits for which the clip makes a "flat" contact with the barrel, there can be an aesthetics problem. . The Cigar pen is an example of this situation. . And for the Cigar, the rotating clip issue is exacerbated because the small screw-on finial cap, which retains the clip, is extremely hard to tighten sufficiently (it is short, smooth and adversely tapered) to prevent the clip rotation.

No one wants to have to add glue or loctite (with the risk of overdoing the application of these materials) to a beautifully finished pen in the final stages of assembly. . It is fiddly work to try to remove excess adhesive and at the same time take care not to damage the pen's nicely finished surfaces.

This rotating clip issue with kit design (and there are other design issues for specific kits) should be communicated directly to the manufacturers of the offending kits.

But how do we do that ?? .
 
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WriteON

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Experiment. Using a tooth pick apply a dab(technical term)of epoxy. I like the idea of abrasing the surfaces that get bonded. Maybe use blue tape to mask before applying.
 
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TonyL

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The small notch will work, but I can't and don't want to do it. The epoxy is although worth a try. I have a personal carry pen that I can experiment with. The funny things of all the ones I sold and gave away none were returned - maybe the folks didn't both to tell me. I may call the company that make Loctite and see what they say. If I do I, I will share with all. Thanks and good night ZZZZzzzz :)
 

SteveG

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I have sold many pens at a very decent price point, since I was selling at a resort on Kauai. When people pay a high price, they are not shy about getting back to the penmaker if something goes wrong. Being aware of the dreaded 'rotating clip' syndrome (having some of my early pens come back):eek::eek:, I decided to do something to prevent that occurrence in any of my pens. So I ground a punch to set tiny dimples into the ring portion that is a part of the clip component. These dimples actually distorted the unseen part of the ring so that there was a small point of the ring protruding on the underside that dug into the pen blank, anchoring the ring portion of the clip so it would not eventually rotate. This has to be done very carefully, especially with the clips that have a thin ring, so the punch work will not be visible as a distortion of the 'show' part of the ring. When this step is employed in conjunction with whatever adhesive you use to ensure the finial or cap piece made of the pen blank material will not eventually work loose, you get a rotation-free clip. Once I started using this technique, I did not have any pens come back due to the clip rotating and ruining an otherwise fine pen. It works! :):)
 

SteveG

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I thought about my post above (#8). I recall that some times I would also use some other technique to provide an anchor to avoid clip rotation. One, as mentioned above, was to scuff up the unseen part of the ring portion of the clip component so the adhesive I used could get a good grip. Also I would sometimes use dikes to clip a small tab on the inner side of the ring, then bend it down creating an anchor point. I would always use some method to anchor the ring, and that varied, depend on the design of the clip.
 

magpens

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I thought about my post above (#8). I recall that some times I would also use some other technique to provide an anchor to avoid clip rotation. One, as mentioned above, was to scuff up the unseen part of the ring portion of the clip component so the adhesive I used could get a good grip. Also I would sometimes use dikes to clip a small tab on the inner side of the ring, then bend it down creating an anchor point. I would always use some method to anchor the ring, and that varied, depend on the design of the clip.

Steve ... good to hear from you ... what are "dikes" as you use the term ?
 

1080Wayne

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I have sold many pens at a very decent price point, since I was selling at a resort on Kauai. When people pay a high price, they are not shy about getting back to the penmaker if something goes wrong. Being aware of the dreaded 'rotating clip' syndrome (having some of my early pens come back):eek::eek:, I decided to do something to prevent that occurrence in any of my pens. So I ground a punch to set tiny dimples into the ring portion that is a part of the clip component. These dimples actually distorted the unseen part of the ring so that there was a small point of the ring protruding on the underside that dug into the pen blank, anchoring the ring portion of the clip so it would not eventually rotate. This has to be done very carefully, especially with the clips that have a thin ring, so the punch work will not be visible as a distortion of the 'show' part of the ring. When this step is employed in conjunction with whatever adhesive you use to ensure the finial or cap piece made of the pen blank material will not eventually work loose, you get a rotation-free clip. Once I started using this technique, I did not have any pens come back due to the clip rotating and ruining an otherwise fine pen. It works! :):)

Like the idea for a wood pen Steve , but does it work as well on a plastic blank ?
 

jttheclockman

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I thought about my post above (#8). I recall that some times I would also use some other technique to provide an anchor to avoid clip rotation. One, as mentioned above, was to scuff up the unseen part of the ring portion of the clip component so the adhesive I used could get a good grip. Also I would sometimes use dikes to clip a small tab on the inner side of the ring, then bend it down creating an anchor point. I would always use some method to anchor the ring, and that varied, depend on the design of the clip.

Steve ... good to hear from you ... what are "dikes" as you use the term ?
Diagonal cutting pliers used usually by electricians and that term.


http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00dBGTmrvJwepA/Diagonal-Cutting-Pliers.jpg
 
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1080Wayne

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The strongest glue I have found for metal to metal gluing is JB WELD. Have used this many times with no failures. Only comes in grey but you can tint. No clear.
www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006O1ICE/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=sl1&tag=diytoolskit-20&linkId=e690139c51ba327104292aa33f21a700

https://diytoolskit.com/best-glue-for-metal/

JB Weld definitely good stuff , but have never tried it for this application . I use red Loctite , but it can fail when clearances are not interference fit . Referring to your previous post John , in my experience a diamond bit in a Dremel gives more tooth (but also greater chance of ruining a clip ) .
 

jttheclockman

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The strongest glue I have found for metal to metal gluing is JB WELD. Have used this many times with no failures. Only comes in grey but you can tint. No clear.
www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006O1ICE/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=sl1&tag=diytoolskit-20&linkId=e690139c51ba327104292aa33f21a700

https://diytoolskit.com/best-glue-for-metal/

JB Weld definitely good stuff , but have never tried it for this application . I use red Loctite , but it can fail when clearances are not interference fit . Referring to your previous post John , in my experience a diamond bit in a Dremel gives more tooth (but also greater chance of ruining a clip ) .
yes another way to do it. I have used 80 grit sandpaper just enough to get scratches. Many times I glue acrylic to each other and just run my exacto knife over them to give some tooth. Good suggestion. though.:)
 

TonyL

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The strongest glue I have found for metal to metal gluing is JB WELD. Have used this many times with no failures. Only comes in grey but you can tint. No clear.
Thanks for the idea. I have used it, but not for this.



I am also "glad" to hear that I am not the only one that experiences this issue.
 

SteveG

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I have sold many pens at a very decent price point, since I was selling at a resort on Kauai. When people pay a high price, they are not shy about getting back to the penmaker if something goes wrong. Being aware of the dreaded 'rotating clip' syndrome (having some of my early pens come back):eek::eek:, I decided to do something to prevent that occurrence in any of my pens. So I ground a punch to set tiny dimples into the ring portion that is a part of the clip component. These dimples actually distorted the unseen part of the ring so that there was a small point of the ring protruding on the underside that dug into the pen blank, anchoring the ring portion of the clip so it would not eventually rotate. This has to be done very carefully, especially with the clips that have a thin ring, so the punch work will not be visible as a distortion of the 'show' part of the ring. When this step is employed in conjunction with whatever adhesive you use to ensure the finial or cap piece made of the pen blank material will not eventually work loose, you get a rotation-free clip. Once I started using this technique, I did not have any pens come back due to the clip rotating and ruining an otherwise fine pen. It works! :):)

Like the idea for a wood pen Steve , but does it work as well on a plastic blank ?
I have used this punch/dimple method, along with scuffing the unseen surfaces of the clip ring on both wood and resin pen blank materials with success. Also my preferred adhesive is loctite blue for securing the pressed-in and/or the threaded-on finial. (When necessary for rework, I found I was able to carefully drive out the finial after using the loctite, but under normal use, it kept everything tight.)
 

TonyL

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Well, I called Henkel's NC office...that was like calling the DMV. Great company and products, but couldn't get in touch with a live person.
 

frank123

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You might give Loctite super gel control super glue a try.

That stuff is amazing, it even impresses me and I don't get impressed by adhesives.
 

jttheclockman

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Well...I am giving the JB Weld a shot (should not have to do glue parts).
Then I saw this (mixed reviews on Amazon, maybe 70% positive): https://thelastglue.com/
The Last Glue – The One Drop Super-Adhesive
https://youtu.be/X5X2HYUgsT8
https://youtu.be/HHFhfzqb7bY

Here are some tests of other glues:

https://youtu.be/XObmZIbHOzY
https://youtu.be/bM4IGweHT2k
I agree with your statement of should not have to glue parts.

Tony that Last Glue is a glorified CA glue and they can spin it anyway they want. I have seen this glue played with at woodworking shows and none of them recomended to use as a finish on a pen. Never could get a straight answer.

I like the test on the epoxy and it proves what I and others have said for many years here that 5 minute epoxy do not compare to 24 hour long drying epoxys and that is why I never use them. I use epoxy in my segmenting and metal to metal there is no better in my eye than original JB Weld and great to see it passed the test. Makes me even feel better in my use of it now. The problem was the color was alys grey but I have now found that System3 has color dyes that are made for epoxies and I have been using the black and love it. I bought a couple other colors but have yet to try. I do not see why they would not work. I see no reason they would compromise the holding power.

Thanks for the links Tony. I never seen that.
 
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bmachin

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Tony,

Just thought of a couple of things that pen repair guys use that might work. First is shellac, which they use to seal and glue all kinds of stuff.

Then there is the thread sealant that Ron Zorn sells at Main Street Pens. It's what Sheaffer uses (used?) in their repair shop. It's not really an adhesive; actually it's more of a tree sap type resin. but it's super sticky and great for sticking together threaded joints that you don't want to come apart. Becomes less viscous with the application of low heat for easy disassembly when repairs are needed. Lots cheaper than Loctite and less hassle than epoxy. Don't know if it will work for this, but I would give it a try. (But then, I already have a jar)

Main Street Pens - Quality Pen Repair

Bill
 

TonyL

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Securing clip

and none of them recomended to use as a finish on a pen. Never could get a straight answer.


I meant it as an adhesive for securing the clip- not for a finish. It appears to bond metal to metal very well.
 

jttheclockman

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and none of them recomended to use as a finish on a pen. Never could get a straight answer.


I meant it as an adhesive for securing the clip- not for a finish. It appears to bond metal to metal very well.
Any CA will bond metal to metal. Weather they have an additional ingredient I do not know. At the show they glued many parts to each other but never put under a real stress test.
 

magpens

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Bill,

I also appreciate your input here.

So, do you think that shellac would work to fill the surface pores of some wood pen barrels ? . I would be planning to apply subsequent coats of CA after some smoothing of the shellac using 600 grit (or so) paper.

Do you know if the shellac would react adversely with the CA ?

The types of woods I am thinking of using this procedure on are oak, padauk, and possibly cocobolo.

Thanks,
Mal

Tony,

Just thought of a couple of things that pen repair guys use that might work. First is shellac, which they use to seal and glue all kinds of stuff.

Then there is the thread sealant that Ron Zorn sells at Main Street Pens. It's what Sheaffer uses (used?) in their repair shop. It's not really an adhesive; actually it's more of a tree sap type resin. but it's super sticky and great for sticking together threaded joints that you don't want to come apart. Becomes less viscous with the application of low heat for easy disassembly when repairs are needed. Lots cheaper than Loctite and less hassle than epoxy. Don't know if it will work for this, but I would give it a try. (But then, I already have a jar)

Main Street Pens - Quality Pen Repair

Bill
 
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