The elusive $250 pen

[btboone]

I've been trying to figure out the motives of a high end pen buyer as well. For some, it's the look and status symbol of a fine pen. It says to others that they have arrived. I would suppose the majority of buyers fit into this catagory.

For some, it's just because they desire to own the thing of artistry and beauty and the cost is not really the point. For those people, it's about what they think and not what others think. These include the crazy multithousand dollar pens that don't fit the usual molds.

For others, it's a collector thing and trying to guess which ones will command the best price at some point in the future. They look a lot at the company history and lot size in hopes of making good investments.

There are also a few that really are fountain pen junkies, but not many of them buy a $250+ pen just as a writing instrument. There are certainly more cost effective ways to do that. They tend to go to the pen shows and find cheaper classic pens.

There's probably a few other catagories of people that I'm not yet aware of. I think the first rule of selling those types of pens is to figure out who the buyers are and what their motivation is.

 

[ctEaglesc]

As soon as the topic on this post mentioned fountain pens I knew it was way over my head.
I have found it extremely interesting and informative.
Who would have ever thought a post like this would have gotten this much interest and participation in such a short time?Over 700hundred views and 40 repies!
I had started a post regarding a friend I wanted to make a "thank you" pen for.It got lost in the shuffle.
I have a friend here in Camden
www.philiph.com who asked me to display my pens in his gallery during an art show.
He had sent over 200 invitations for the event and I was quite shocked that I was asked. After all it was his"show"
(May have wanted small turnings to make his look bigger)
In thanks I wanted to turn pen for him,I asked what he liked to write with.It was a name I don't recall but Aurora was in it.
I brought a pen I had turned to see if he could write with it,Could not..Funny thing is I could write with the one I had brought for a test but could not write with his.
The "Aurora" he had was purchased because of the price and how it wrote.
The pen cost $150.00 and was simple in design.
Phil can buy any pen he wants.He purchased that one for reasons that appealed to him.
The secret is an unassuming black sleek looking pen that writes well for someone who knows how to use it.
There you go problem solved,throw in a diamond inlay or something to bump the price.
I guess it doesn't have to do with the blank or apointments in the case of fountain pens it's the steak not the sizzle.

 

[jdodom]

From my some what limited knowledge about the history of some of the name brand pen makers, they did not start off selling high priced pens. They started out with an idea or new inovation and with hard work were able to make a name that is now associated with the high end pen market. This did not happen over a few years but decades. Btw how many pen makers are no longer around?

 

[RussFairfield]

An interesting observation.
All of the good ones, Waterman, Parker, Pelikan, Faber, Sheaffer, Mont Blanc, etc. are still making fountain pens. The junk, Esterbrook, Scripto, and the like, have disappeared.

 

[arehrlich]

It just goes to show that quality still sells. There have been a lot of companies that have tried to bring out cheap FPs and found no market, yet Mont Blanc is selling well, along with Namiki. Both of these companies have low end pens that sell for about $100, and go up from there.

The public perceives cheap fountain pens as accidents waiting to happen.

Alan

 

[Mainebowlman]

Lou, your great thread continues....

Everyone's comments have caused me to do a bit of web research (more to do) to see what other uniqueness is in these expensive pens. In addition to design, balance, detail, quality parts, and perfect trim and fit...there's a 'name'. The old brand name. Parker, Schaffer, Namiki, Visconti, Aurora, Lamy, Montblanc.

So maybe, in getting ready to produce those $250 pens, I need to establish a name for my line and inscribe it (or a logo) on all my pens from now on. Should I give my name a French, Italian or Japanese twist? Or should I just leave it as it and wait to hear some say: "Is that a <i>Savona</i> you're writing with?" ? So so much is in the marketing.

Seriously...I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread not for the dreams of wealth and fame, but just for all the catalystic (?) thoughts to make me stretch, expand, and get out of the kit pen box. I'm going to try to find a store that sells those expensive pens and examine them to notice their detail, how they feel in my hand, and how they write. Then I'll have that first-hand visual-tactile experience to help me better evaluate my own work. Without this thread, I doubt I'd have gone out of my way to find those upscale pens. I probably wouldn't have thought about balance as much, or detail.

And if I ever DO make that elusive pen, it won't ever have a price tag on it because it will go to my best critic and biggest supporter, my wife.

Thanks to all for a great thread.

Jack (in the sun...maybe)

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

Originally posted by RussFairfield
<br />An interesting observation.
All of the good ones, Waterman, Parker, Pelikan, Faber, Sheaffer, Mont Blanc, etc. are still making fountain pens. The junk, Esterbrook, Scripto, and the like, have disappeared.

Russ, Funny you should mention Esterbrook. I have two fountain pens in my pocket. I use them every day. A Baron made of African Blackwood and a Esterbrook Student Pen that I bought in a junk store for $10.

I take the Baron out and it may write or it may not write. I shake it, put it in a cup with the point down for a while, sometimes it writes sometimes it won't.

I take the Esterbrook out and it will write every time. Has the original sack in it, fills from a bottle of ink. And works trouble free. Even after sitting over the Memorial day weekend with no use at all. First time put to paper and it writes.

Makes it hard to sell a pen to someone when you know it will give trouble. I suspect a poor design of the feed assembly in the Baron.

 

[Old Griz]

Mac, I have made a whole load of Baron fountain pens and sold almost all of them so far... I have 3 in the house that are used almost on a daily basis (at least one is) and have never had a failure to write with any of them. All have Private Reserve ink in them. I have also never had a Baron fountain pen come back from a customer with a failure to write (and who knows what ink is in them).
I think that your across the board statement that the Baron has a poor feed assembly design is out of line...
If that were the case, I think you would be seeing a load of complaints on the board here and BillB and Berea would be flooded with more complaints than they could handle...

 

[arehrlich]

Does anyone know if the nib assembly of the Baron and Jr Gent is the same?

I have made a good number of Jr Gent's and have had not trouble with the ink flowing anytime that I use the pen... even after sitting for a week or more.

My only experience with the Baron was with the one that Shane sent over for me to look at. That one definately did have feed problems. I have a few Baron kits that I will make and test.

The assemblies look the same, but are they?

Alan

 

[DCBluesman]

Alan--the nib assembly is interchangeable between the two kits and the nibs themselves can be moved from one to the other. I can't swear that the feed is identical, but it looks awfully darned close uner 3.5X magnification.

I've probably not made as many Barons as other on the site have, but I'm up to about 40. I test each one with the converter. Thus far I have been pleasantly surprised that with just a couple of minutes break-in I have gotten good results. I have had to use a small piece of acetate on two of the nibs to smooth them a hair. This is in no way an attempt to negate that problems that some of you have experienced.

Some of you may want to work the Jr Gent/Baron nibs a bit more. They are what is currently described as semi-flexible nibs. In parlance of the older (pre-1950) nibs, they would probably be classified as firm nibs. Firmer nibs require greater finger pressure (but still not as much as a ballpoint). The reason that all nibs have become firmer while still using the old descriptors has been the advent of the ballpoint. Ballpoint pens invite using pressure to apply ink to paper. The intent of fountain pens is to flow or guide ink onto paper. Since modern society tends to grind their ballpoints, the old nibs broke down quickly, thus encouraging manufacturers to make them stiffer.

If you'd like an inexpensive test of our nibs against a modern steel nib, order a Lamy Safari from Tony Turchetta for $25 and compare. It comes with a very nice, flexible steel nib that is made in Germany. While I do prefer the Lamy nib, it's not terribly far off from what I have experienced with the Baron and Jr. Gent.

 

[arehrlich]

Lou,

Thanks for the response and your observations.

I have a Jr. Gent that I use as my everyday pen. I love the feel of the nib. It is a little firm but its very responsive and provides great flow. Although it is sold as a medium nib, I find it much closer to the fine that I prefer.

I've made about 10 of the Jr. Gents and, like you, tested each of them prior to giving them to their new owners. I have had no trouble with any one of them.

I assumed that the Baron unit is the same, but my one experience the Baron (Shane's pen) and now reading some posts here, I am wondering.

I'll make the Baon's that I have and report back. Hopefully I'll be as happy with them as I've been with the Jr Gents.

BTW - I have the Lamy Safari and I like the feel of the nib on my Jr. Gent better. The only pen that I own that I like a little better is my Mont Blanc. The nib is softer and a little finer.

I also have two Namiki hidden point fountain pens (no removable cap - works with a click like a ball point), but both of them tend to skip a bit more than either the Mont Blanc or the Jr. Gent.

This has been a wonderful thread. Lot's of great thoughts and insights. Let's keep it up.

Alan

 

[driften]

I have been using a Baron FP for a few weeks now and have never had a problem with it. I also have a Lamy Safari and don't see a little diffrence in how they write. The Safari does write better in side to side then the Baron but they both write about the same on the down stroke. Maybe with more time writing with the Baron it will be as nice as the Safari since they are kinda close. But they have both been good at writing every time for me.

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

Originally posted by Old Griz
<br />Mac, I have made a whole load of Baron fountain pens and sold almost all of them so far... I have 3 in the house that are used almost on a daily basis (at least one is) and have never had a failure to write with any of them. All have Private Reserve ink in them. I have also never had a Baron fountain pen come back from a customer with a failure to write (and who knows what ink is in them).
I think that your across the board statement that the Baron has a poor feed assembly design is out of line...
If that were the case, I think you would be seeing a load of complaints on the board here and BillB and Berea would be flooded with more complaints than they could handle...

Tom, Since I have the pen in my hand I think I am a better judge of what I see.

 

[Old Griz]

Mac, You are a better judge of the individual pen that you have.. not of all the Barons in general...

 

[arehrlich]

Just received my latest copy of the Rotarian magazine and, what to my surprise, did I find on the back cover... nothing else but the elusive $250 (I don't know how many zeros to follow this with) pen.

A limited run of 100 pens.
Its body made of 18-carat white gold.
Its clip and body have diamonds inlaid
AND it has an 18-carat gold nib.

This pen was designed for Rotary's 100 year anniversary.

Alan

 

[csb333]

I think a whole lot of you are making $250.00 pens. Most of the kits I buy have attractive nibs and write great. How long does it take for that machine to make that $325 Mont Blanc Diplomat out of plastic ? Each one of our pens are different and are truly hand made. If you rated them on the commercial high end pen scale, many people are making high dollar pens. I think that if they were marketed to high dollar customers many of us could receive dividends. The problem is that we do not have million dollar advertising budgets. I have seen many pens that are of the highest quality and deserve the $250. Im sorry that these people are not receiving that kind of money. I have seen many in the DC Bluesman album that I think are in that category.
Maybe it will happen someday- Chris

 

[timdaleiden]

Chris

There are a lot of great pens posted here, by a lot of talented folks. I think that very few (if any) of these nice pens would ever sell for $250.00.

Russ made me chuckle when he compared kit pens to a "paint by number" painting. It was funny, but very true. How many art collectors would pay big bucks for a very nicely done "paint by number" painting? All are "one of a kind", some folks may not have used the number code as designed, but they are still "kit" paintings. If you paste a $225.00 dollar diamond somewhere on the painting, it will increase it's value by just that much (maybe a bit more).

If someone wants to make these very high end pens, they will need artistic ability and skill, great motivation, and the tools to make their own parts (or pay someone else to make these parts).

Someone may occasionally run across a person who has money to burn, and may sell a very nice kit pen for $250.00, but that is going to be a rare thing, IMHO.

 

[PenWorks]

I stock about 50 high price or limited edition pens in my shop from a variety of companies. Anywhere from 250 to 1,200.00 Bellieve me, they don't fly off the shelf. But then again, that is not my market. but they sure make my 125.00 pens sell pretty easy by having them there.. Also, they are nothing special, different resins, some sterling fittings,excellant fit and finish, but they have a name and are limited, like Gary's froggie pens. The higher price pens I stock, are the ones I like only. This way, if they never sell at least I'll have some nice looking pens to write with. Also, the Delta Limited Edition Julius Caesar Pen came out in 1999, limited to about 100 in each line or grade. that pen took 5 years to sell out and the standard grade FP was about $650 retail.

 

[JimGo]

Wow, that's an interesting statistic Anthony. Thanks! Kind of gives a good perspective on the market.

 

[Ben]

Originally posted by RussFairfield
<br />Links to some sites where you can learn about fountain pens. This is not a complete list, but it is enough to get you started.

http://pw1.netcom.com/~danhle/home.html
"The Fountain Pen Page". Good basic information, and some recommended pens to purchase for a beginner.

http://www.luttmanns.com/pens/intro.html
More information from a historical perspective

http://www.nibs.com/index.html
a lot of links to the manufacturers

http://www.penlovers.com/stylophiles.htm
"Stylophiles" is an online pen magazine. A lot of information and excellent photos.

Thanks Russ... As a result of these links, I was able to do my homework, and ended up getting a brand new Shaeffer Prelude on e-bay shipped to my door for $25 bucks! My next aquisition will hopefully be a Cross Solo... Thanks again for the links and thanks everybody for such an amazing group!!!


Ben

 

[woodbutcher]

You can never get more for a pen than you ask. The buyer cannot give more than he has, wether willing or not. Take any well made and finished pen. In some markets it is worth $25.00 if you are lucky. Take the same pen to a better market and expect $50.00. Move up a notch and you're in $75.00 territory. Rembrandt didn't paint a Rembrandt every time. Some pens for whatever the reason are hard to sell. I call those "Gifts". Nothing wrong with them they just will not bring top dollar. When I present a product only the best is there. When I started making pens I could make 8 to 10 pens a day. However after doing this for 3yrs and a lot of experience I am now able to do 4to 5 pens on a really great day. Usually 2 to 4 pens a day. Most of those I consider to be excellent. Still, occasionally I make a "Gift". Most of my clientel are professionals or business owners. They don't stagger backwards grabbing at their chest when I quote a price for my writing instruments. Please allow me to get off this soap box and go do some turning. I hope this helps in some small way. By the way I would like to thank everyone from the creators of this website to all those who post for all the tips and pointers. I can truthfully say I am so proud to be listed amoung the ranks,
Jim

 

[Jim in Oakville]

Hi Lou,

Great post and well responded too by our group. Like you I have been turning pens for less than 5 years. When I started I really didn't care too much about selling them and my quality was poor (bad fitting hardware, dull wood, bad finishes, etc.). Some of my work sold and I got excited, nothing more than $30, I was giving away my stuff, but really the quality was poor.

Being self taught meant that I learnt on my own, with little feedback. My pens got better as I discovered better turning methods, sanding and finishes, but enough so that I now was comfortable with selling my work.

I think it was about a year ago though when things happened for me in pen turning, new materials, this forum and better advice from those in the know. My quality skyrocketed in a week when I started using stabilized burls, bowling ball and acyrlics...suddenly that combined with the better kits from CSUSA and my sales jumped quickly.

So, what does a $250 pen look like, I don't know. My work now sells on it's own, by word of mouth and via a small part of my furniture web site. I have sold pens for $200, a few, but mostly in and around $100-150. Is my work good? I think it's getting better all the time, but my bottom line is that we here share and we learn, I would not be inspired to do this if it was not for that. I know my work is getting better when I hear what my customers say to me, there is a point where they now don't ask for the discount, they want the pen!

We had a turner at our club at the Golden Horseshoe turn a three sided pen using a method called therming. He used rare and exotic asian hard woods that cost more than I can remember. He said pens like his sell for $4-7K, collectors buy them....so what does a $250 pen look like??? I think you have to ask your customers..

 

[Mainebowlman]

So, Jim, what exactly is therming? All I can Google about it is in a book by Mike Darlow.

Jack

 

[Jim in Oakville]

Hi Jack,

Therming is much like Darlow showed in his book, a process of turning in parralel axis's to the centre axis between centres.

The person at our club showed how he turned a three sidded pen using a centre fixture that could be rotated in a controlled fashin 120 degrees, 3 settings. he mounted the pen blank ( ususally a drilled out complex arrangement of exotic woods) to one face of the jig, and cut the face in an interupetd cutting fashion as that face passed by on the fixture in the lathe. After completing one face then he rotated the blank to a second face and continued to creat the second face, then repeated the process for the third face.

He mounted the blank on a spindle that was secured in teh jig by using 12 point sockets, the rotation of the assembly was controlled by counting the points in teh socket and rotating it accordingly to match the 120 degree faces. It took nearly an hour to cut one face, he explained he took about a week working at nights to make each pen.

He had several finished examples for us to look at, they were incredible, somehow he also turned a finial on the top end. The pens were twist pens, basic mechanisms, but the shape of the pen, the rareity of the wood and his final detailing made it a work of art.

[]

 

[woodscavenger]

Could you snag a photo?

 

[Mainebowlman]

Thanks for the explanation, Jim. Hard to visualize for me, especially the jig. I will look forward to seeing a photo of one sometime.

Does your club friend have any photos online?

Jack

 

[Jim in Oakville]

Hi,

I don't have an image but our next news letter may well have one. It's almost like a second spindle axis attached to the primary axis spinning around the primary attached by the jig holding the blank. He said the first pen cost nearly $12k after taking ito acount the costs of the jig, lathe, custom cutters, etc ..

 

[PenWorks]

Okay, so it is not $250.00 but it's closer. Not braggin, just stating the facts.....This guy strolls into the store, just moved here from Kansas City and couldn't believe there is a pen store in Cave Creek. [8D] He buys this Jr Statesmen Cumberland with a gold nib for $165.00
My highest price yet for a Jr. Statesmen, Is it worth it? He thought so and he owns about 30 plus nice pens [] He would have never bought a steel nib pen, just thought I would share my good luck story for today. []

<br />

 

[Rifleman1776]

Congrats Anthony. The answer to your question is "Yes". It is worth it because he paid that for it. Sellers may set prices, buyers establish value.

 

[wdcav1952]

Congratulations Anthony!

 

[penhead]

Congrats Anthony...and yes, I agree with him it is a beautiful pen and worth the price, and if it made 'him' happy, it was more than worth it..!!

 

[ed4copies]

Anthony,

Value is relative-I suspect your pen took at least an hour of your life. My attorney charges me 250 for an hour of his life. Although he will tell you all about his education, he CAN'T turn YOUR pen. So, it is definitely worth at least $165. Congratulations!!

Wouldn't it be nice if we could ask people what they charge for their time BEFORE we tell them the cost of an item???

 

[driften]

Congrats Anthony, he got a very nice pen and will be very happy with it! Maybe he will be back for more!

 

[jvsank]

Congrats Anthony nice sale

 

[Skordog]

Nice job Anthony. Out of curiosity, how did you have this particular pen displayed? Was the cap off to show that it was a fountain pen? Was it sitting on this feather?

 

[PenWorks]

Originally posted by Skordog
<br /> Out of curiosity, how did you have this particular pen displayed? Was the cap off to show that it was a fountain pen? Was it sitting on this feather?

It was not even in the display cabinet. After he looked at several pens and we chatted, it was clear he was a pen guy and clear he would only buy a gold nib. and the Statesmen was to big and the Jr's were just right. I had made up 4 Jr. Statesmen pens with the gold nibs and they are behind my desk. So when I am not there, they won't be mistaken and sold for steel. I sat him at my desk and let him dip several pens and he made his decission. Most of my expensive fountain pens buyers, want to dip and try before they buy. []
Having a desk to accomidate them and good paper, really helps. Heck even my steel Baron nibs will slide on the paper I let them test on! []

 

[bigvoots44]

250$ pen;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
We must remember that there are two sides to every sale... the buyer and the purchaser. No matter what value we put on an item it all depends on the purchaser what the final value is. if 250 is too much to him/her it is not a 250 pen,,BUT, if 250 is what they are willing to pay it is a 350 pen. The same applies to everthing, the purchaser determines the selling price. Look at walmart, if you dont buy at their inflated price you will see a reduced price.
fred

 

[bigvoots44]

i screwed up. i meant a 250 pen

 

[woodbutcher]

You will never get more than you ask. Your client base is the answer. Sometimes ya gotta sell the sizzle! Have a great day,

Jim []

 

[btboone]

I've sold a few at $195. I'm working on a follow up to the twisting titanium fountain pen; this one is a ballpoint with some unique features that I've never seen in a pen before. I'm hoping to target well into the 4 digit range. We'll see how it goes.