Tap for Bock #5 threads

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NGLJ

NGLJ

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Surrey BC, Canada
Being a displaced Yorkshireman and frugal by nature (my wife's version is miserly :mad:) I am looking for an "affordable" M6.4 x 0.6 tap for a Bock #5 nib. Is there a size close enough for it to work, 1/4" x 40 for example. I want to try out fountain pen making but without breaking the bank! Ok, I know I might just be dreaming! At least if I know the situation, I can decide where to go from here, and try and explain it to my wife. There could be a lot of "honey do" stuff in my future.
 
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Turner's Warehouse has it. It's one of the taps you don't want to start using a "close enough" version in my experience, nothing more annoying than not being able to screw the section in place.
Unless someone has no use for it and is willing to sell it "cheaply".
 
I'm curious - of the 4 major nib units that are readily available, why did you choose Bock #5 ?

In my opinion, it has terrible dimensions - much longer than the JoWo #5 for "the same amount of nib", and it's longer than both Bock and JoWo #6 housings.

As a result, I have never liked the appearance of the pens I made using it, the nib section was far too long as a percentage of the pen body, and it forces the cap to be long as well (unless you somehow manage to design the cap threads on the section instead of the more normal place on the barrel).

Maybe it has a redeeming feature that I haven't noticed?
 
duncsuss said:
I'm curious - of the 4 major nib units that are readily available, why did you choose Bock #5 ?

In my opinion, it has terrible dimensions - much longer than the JoWo #5 for "the same amount of nib", and it's longer than both Bock and JoWo #6 housings.

As a result, I have never liked the appearance of the pens I made using it, the nib section was far too long as a percentage of the pen body, and it forces the cap to be long as well (unless you somehow manage to design the cap threads on the section instead of the more normal place on the barrel).

Maybe it has a redeeming feature that I haven't noticed?
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I guess ignorance plays a part, being at the very beginning of what might be my FP journey. I say "might" because getting even semi-serious about FP's can be pricey. I tend to give my pens away, and at this point I really don't know who I would give them to. At this point I am just trying to satisfy my curiosity. I chose a #5 size over a #6 because I prefer slimmer pens. Also, my regular supplier only carries Bock. I guess it would have been smart to ask here before deciding.
 
NGLJ said:
I am aware that Turners Warehouse carries them but at $44 US I would find it very difficult to justify the expense just to try making a fountain pen. It would be different if I was thinking of making many pens. Got some serious thinking to do!
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Understood. Not to scare you off, but getting into kitless pens is not cheap. There are a lot of specialty tools, blanks, etc. I've likely got thousands into my kitless adventure.
If 44$ for a tap is worrisome or out of consideration, I wouldn't advise you to start down the kitless path. There are ways of lowering the cost, but even those aren't cheap.
 
I know what you mean, since I am already on the "kitless" path, just not fountain pens. The step to fountain pens requires more expensive taps for the nibs. Taps and dies for the cap and barrel are a more reasonable cost, unless you are talking about triple thread which I have no intention of buying. If I was in the business of selling fountain pens that would be different. For me it is purely a hobby. The attraction of FP's is simply something that I have not yet tried, and ultimately may not. When you are retired on a relatively fixed income, you have to be very careful with your money. My wife is very understanding, and supportive, but there are always limits!
 
Inexpensive and making custom fountain pens are truly oxymorons - you can't not spend a ton of money and go all in making a custom fountain pen. You can cut costs pretty significantly, but no matter what you will be pretty quickly into an 'expensive' hobby! I am retired, fixed income, principally only give my pens away, and have moved pretty much totally from kit pens to custom made. Cheap? nope, but it keeps me truly entertained as I try new methods, materials, or techniques. Way cheaper than 'medical' solutions for what would happen if I was bored.

To keep your costs a bit controlled, I might suggest standardizing on a similar sized pen, using the same drilling and components. That will save you the costs of multiple mandrels, drill bits, cutting tools, etc. Bock nibs are pretty touchy to make work versus Jowo so you might want to consider standardizing on Jowo - but both 'thoughtfully' made their products totally unique with the tooling not switchable so choose carefully.

Triple start taps/dies are nice, but not real necessary. Again, pick a good size you like and buy a decent set of single starts - they should be inexpensive and last a long time. You can also go halfway and buy advanced kits like the ones made by Kate Harrow of Bullseye Turning - they allow a custom looking pen, but provide the threaded components to reduce the makers tooling costs.

Have fun!!
Kevin
 
NJturner said:
Inexpensive and making custom fountain pens are truly oxymorons - you can't not spend a ton of money and go all in making a custom fountain pen. You can cut costs pretty significantly, but no matter what you will be pretty quickly into an 'expensive' hobby! I am retired, fixed income, principally only give my pens away, and have moved pretty much totally from kit pens to custom made. Cheap? nope, but it keeps me truly entertained as I try new methods, materials, or techniques. Way cheaper than 'medical' solutions for what would happen if I was bored.

To keep your costs a bit controlled, I might suggest standardizing on a similar sized pen, using the same drilling and components. That will save you the costs of multiple mandrels, drill bits, cutting tools, etc. Bock nibs are pretty touchy to make work versus Jowo so you might want to consider standardizing on Jowo - but both 'thoughtfully' made their products totally unique with the tooling not switchable so choose carefully.

Triple start taps/dies are nice, but not real necessary. Again, pick a good size you like and buy a decent set of single starts - they should be inexpensive and last a long time. You can also go halfway and buy advanced kits like the ones made by Kate Harrow of Bullseye Turning - they allow a custom looking pen, but provide the threaded components to reduce the makers tooling costs.

Have fun!!
Kevin
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Kevin, thanks for your thoughtful input. I can only wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment in your post. I would say that we are both "in the same boat". Having said that I am very conscious of ensuring that my wife's similar needs are catered for. She doesn't have a hobby as such, which can make it difficult to have her feel that she is getting a "fair share of the pie". I am very fortunate that she is a very loving and caring person, and does understand the importance of my pen/woodworking hobby for my wellbeing.

Had I known more about the merits and de-merits of Bock vs Jowo, I might have chosen to start with Jowo, as you, and others, have suggested. It isn't as if I have made a big commitment to Bock. So, switching to Jowo is an option. The bigger question is "how far do I want to go?". I can see how I could standardize on say a Jowo #5 nib to limit the investment. I have enjoyed the challenge of switching to kitless, and even if I don't pursue fountain pens there is so much that I can still explore via different materials, for example. As it happens I have tried the excellent Apollo kit from Bullseye, and that is what got me interested in fountain pens. I made it as a wedding gift for our older son, who is getting married again. The Bullseye kits remove the "section challenge", but may not bring the full satisfaction of "making" the pen. So much to ponder!
 
Reconsider your nib choice. If your set on #5 nibs then use Jowo nib sets. Meisternnibs.com, Fpnibs.com, It's a 6.4 x .5 but you can find 6.5 x .5 taps fairly cheap and it will work just fine.
 
mredburn said:
Reconsider your nib choice. If your set on #5 nibs then use Jowo nib sets. Meisternnibs.com, Fpnibs.com, It's a 6.4 x .5 but you can find 6.5 x .5 taps fairly cheap and it will work just fine.
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Thanks for the useful info. I checked and 6.5 x .5 are readily available, which helps me choose Jowo #5 as my base.
 
I thought I would use Bock #5 nibs as well and ordered them from Pen Realm with a brief note about my first nib purchase and pen making plans. I used cost as the driving factor for my choice of Bock #5s. I got a voice mail a few days later and it was Kirk Speer from Pen Realm. He asked me to call him back to discuss my order.
I called him and he spent almost 30 minutes discussing the benefits of #6 nibs vs #5 nibs based on my purchase note describing my goal to make pens similiar to Indian pen makers.

He tunes each nib and sells the taps for both sizes. I recommend Pen Realm for nibs and tap purchases. I agree with the other posters that good close enough doesnt work for pen taps and will lead to frustration and swear words.
 
THere are generally 3 types of Taps. Taper, Plug, Bottoming. The plug or starter tap is what you want if your going to thread all the way through or not bottom out at a shoulder. Where you might have stepped it down. If your going to thread to a stop/ shoulder you want a bottoming tap. THe bottoming tap has fully formed threads closer to the end of the tap. I have when the part needs it ground the tap down to the first full threads to get the part threaded as deep as possible on a shallow piece. I usually start with the plug and then follow up with the bottoming tap.
The difference of .1mm or .004 inchis on no consequence since the plastic housing wont be that accurate. I have to chase the the threads on the plastic feeds often. I have also found the main body to be out of round occasionally. You will have to use a tighter tolerance on your drill bits. A little bit of over sized hole on a .5 pitch will ruin the part.
 
The materials we use to make pens are typically much softer than metal, and so don't usually need the "starter" taps (Taper and Plug). A Bottoming Tap is all I've used to make sections of acrylic acetate, ebonite, celluloid, Alumilite and other polyurethan resins, and epoxy resins.

I make a small chamfer on the inside of the lip so the tap has an easier time getting the initial threads started.

(A sidenote: in my experience, Polyester resins are nasty - brittle and chippy (same for something that Woodturningz sell called Inlace Acrylester). I avoid them whenever possible, or at least I reserve them for parts that do not have to be threaded.)

(Another sidenote: I'm a Red Rose lad, but I won't hold it against you that you're from the wrong side of the Pennines. We can't all be born lucky :cool: )
 
duncsuss said:
The materials we use to make pens are typically much softer than metal, and so don't usually need the "starter" taps (Taper and Plug). A Bottoming Tap is all I've used to make sections of acrylic acetate, ebonite, celluloid, Alumilite and other polyurethan resins, and epoxy resins.

I make a small chamfer on the inside of the lip so the tap has an easier time getting the initial threads started.

(A sidenote: in my experience, Polyester resins are nasty - brittle and chippy (same for something that Woodturningz sell called Inlace Acrylester). I avoid them whenever possible, or at least I reserve them for parts that do not have to be threaded.)

(Another sidenote: I'm a Red Rose lad, but I won't hold it against you that you're from the wrong side of the Pennines. We can't all be born lucky :cool: )
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A long way from home just like me! Maybe you will forgive me if I tell you that I went to University in Manchester. I have tried Polyester and soon found that threads with that are no good. When did you move to the US? I have also only used a bottoming tap, but being relatively new to kitless I am still very much in info gathering mode.
 
NGLJ said:
A long way from home just like me! Maybe you will forgive me if I tell you that I went to University in Manchester. I have tried Polyester and soon found that threads with that are no good. When did you move to the US? I have also only used a bottoming tap, but being relatively new to kitless I am still very much in info gathering mode.
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My home town (Swinton - now considered part of Salford) is just a few miles to the west of Manchester. Was the university on Oxford Road when you were there? (That might have been UMIST.) I've been over here 30 years now.

One option which isn't often considered is to use a die to cut different threads on the nib unit housing. There are inexpensive tap & die sets that are close to the right diameter - such as 1/4" UNEF (32tpi) which converted to metric is about M 6.35 x 0.8. Not ideal, but if you can't get the tap that matches the nib units it is possible to change the nib unit threads.
 
Actually I went to UMIST, which is near Picadilly. The whole family went back to the UK for a visit 6 years ago, and I went back to UMIST for a visit. I recognized UMIST when I got close but not much else. We came here in 1981 having lost my job in Ayrshire, Scotland. I am intrigued by your idea to re-thread the section using a die close to the existing thread. Having never done that, do you have any advice on technique. I can see how you might easily ruin it.
 
Watching this thread develop - so we all know that you're going to be buying stuff.....lol.

Since you recently missed the group buy on taps and dies, finding a good alternate will help. I suggest two different places for lots of tooling needed by custom pens - drills, taps, collets, etc. Victor Machinery Victor or SHARS Tools Shars are good sources. I've used both and highly recommend them for anything 'machinist'. Beaufort in England Beaufort is also a good option for you since you don't have to deal with the crazy environment going on here in the US with tariffs and associated silliness. They sell excellent mandrels, pen components including blanks, and some pretty well made kits if you are in the mood for a kit. Be sure to also check out Phil Dart's Pen Instruction PDF on the site - it's well written and informative Phil'sPDF . Turners Warehouse resells a lot of their stuff as well as some good tooling made and developed by Jim Hinze Hinze Pen Tools. There is also fellow IAP member Rick Harrel who makes REALLY nice stuff at a great price. His pricelist is in the Vendors forum here.

I agree with the above comments on starter vs bottom taps/dies. Most resins we use don't require a 'starter' tap, and if you use non-opaque blanks, the bottoming taps look cleaner. Save some cash by reducing the tooling costs.

Hope some of this helps!

Kevin
 
I doubt I'd recognize any of Manchester now - I've seen photos online and wonder how anyone could think paving over Picadilly Gardens was an improvement. Ah well, nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

Another source of nibs (and maybe tooling, I haven't been on their site for a while) is FPnibs.com - in Spain, but very reasonable pricing and the shipping costs don't hurt too much if you are placing an order for a bunch of stuff. Typically I buy 8 or so nibs from them when I place an order. I think they have dimensioned drawings for the various nib housings on the site also.

As Kevin said - Rick Herrell is a great source of both ideas and custom made tooling.

I can't really offer much advice on re-threading a housing, but what I'd do (if I didn't have a bunch of specialist stuff like a sliding die holder) is find a transfer-punch which slides in place of the nib and feed (a snug fit if possible, but not tight as there's a flat inside there which would make the whole thing oval if it was tight.) I'd hold the Transfer punch in a chuck in the headstock of the lathe, and the die in a die holder to keep it as square as possible, then turn the lathe headstock by hand to cut the threads. If the housing slipped on the punch I'd hold that with my fingers (to avoid crushing it with pliers) and turn that.

It's not a very good idea, and since it still requires you to buy stuff it'd be far better and simpler to just pick a nib (such as JoWo #5) and buy the M6.5x0.5 tap for it.
 
NJturner said:
Watching this thread develop - so we all know that you're going to be buying stuff.....lol.

Since you recently missed the group buy on taps and dies, finding a good alternate will help. I suggest two different places for lots of tooling needed by custom pens - drills, taps, collets, etc. Victor Machinery Victor or SHARS Tools Shars are good sources. I've used both and highly recommend them for anything 'machinist'. Beaufort in England Beaufort is also a good option for you since you don't have to deal with the crazy environment going on here in the US with tariffs and associated silliness. They sell excellent mandrels, pen components including blanks, and some pretty well made kits if you are in the mood for a kit. Be sure to also check out Phil Dart's Pen Instruction PDF on the site - it's well written and informative Phil'sPDF . Turners Warehouse resells a lot of their stuff as well as some good tooling made and developed by Jim Hinze Hinze Pen Tools. There is also fellow IAP member Rick Harrel who makes REALLY nice stuff at a great price. His pricelist is in the Vendors forum here.

I agree with the above comments on starter vs bottom taps/dies. Most resins we use don't require a 'starter' tap, and if you use non-opaque blanks, the bottoming taps look cleaner. Save some cash by reducing the tooling costs.

Hope some of this helps!

Kevin
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Thanks Kevin. I am aware of Beaufort, and I have already made good use of Rick's talent by purchasing his sliding die/tap holder, and some mandrels. I will check out your other suggestions.

Since you mention the current "silliness" I could get hit with countervailing tariff's if I buy from the US. Fortunately, I live near the border (15 min drive) and have a US maildrop in Blaine, Washington where I pick up any purchases. However, I could still get hit with any countervailing tariffs on re-entering Canada. So far this has not happened. Getting things shipped within the US is relatively cheap. Getting things shipped to Canada from the US in not!

I feel sorry for the maildrop people in Blaine who rely upon Canadian custom to survive. The maildrop that I use has gone from 2000 items per month to 200 because not as may Canadians are purchasing from the US. BTW it isn't what we want. At the moment it is the only way as individuals we can respond to the "silliness". Also, Bellingham, Washington relies heavily on Canadian retail business being only 20 miles from the border. Many stores are offering the Canadian dollar at par to attract business. That can't last for long before many will not survive. Unfortunately, it looks like the "silliness" will continue for the foreseeable future :(.
 
NGLJ said:
Thanks Kevin. I am aware of Beaufort, and I have already made good use of Rick's talent by purchasing his sliding die/tap holder, and some mandrels. I will check out your other suggestions.

Since you mention the current "silliness" I could get hit with countervailing tariff's if I buy from the US. Fortunately, I live near the border (15 min drive) and have a US maildrop in Blaine, Washington where I pick up any purchases. However, I could still get hit with any countervailing tariffs on re-entering Canada. So far this has not happened. Getting things shipped within the US is relatively cheap. Getting things shipped to Canada from the US in not!

I feel sorry for the maildrop people in Blaine who rely upon Canadian custom to survive. The maildrop that I use has gone from 2000 items per month to 200 because not as may Canadians are purchasing from the US. BTW it isn't what we want. At the moment it is the only way as individuals we can respond to the "silliness". Also, Bellingham, Washington relies heavily on Canadian retail business being only 20 miles from the border. Many stores are offering the Canadian dollar at par to attract business. That can't last for long before many will not survive. Unfortunately, it looks like the "silliness" will continue for the foreseeable future :(.
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Yep unfortunately. I live in an east coast seaside town here in NJ. We have looked forward to and enjoyed the company of lots of Canadian's - especially those living in Quebec - that come visit our fair state each year to get their fill of vacationing near the ocean. The hotels and restaurants are usually full of lots of Canadian families enjoying their vacation here. Not this year. Tourism took a major hit, rentals are not being filled, and the local economy as well as the job markets are taking a big hit due to the turmoil being wrought on our relationships.

Not going to make this a political diatribe, but everyone is footing the cost of import taxes and tariffs - I tried to order a good amount of materials, nibs, and pen parts to help save me some cash, but I know I'll run out sooner or later. Glad you have the ability to acquire the things you need - we shall see how this all goes.

Kevin
 
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