Stabilized wood incompatible with CA glue?

Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
CharlesH

CharlesH

Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2009
Messages
600
Location
Canada, Quebec, Laval
Hey guys,

It has happened to me twice. I have piece of orange amboyna burl and I seem to have a really hard time finishing it. Basically the problem I am having is that the CA glue I am applying on it is sticking to the non-voidy spots. The CA takes a lot of time to harden as well.



The picture (clickable for bigger size) you see is after 7 coats of medium. As soon I sanded all those voids became white and I could not get rid of it. I tried my compressor and acetone but no go!



Instead of pursuing with that amboyna I decided to finish another pen instead and the result is as usual, it can be seen in this post. So what are your thoughts on this? I had someone in the glue business that there is some chemical incompatible with the glue.

Thanks,

Charles
 
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
I had that happen with some stabilized redwood burl. I should have suspected trouble since the blank had already attacked the finish on my desk.
 
Well, I've had issues with voids before and added CA while the blank was stationary and smoothed out with my finger and let it dry. After that I sanded smooth and started with the final layers of CA. The voids look like they are retaining some of the stick and the sanded dust from the dry CA is lodging in the voids and curing. I'm wondering...if you added thin CA to the voids will the white spots turn clear or stay white? Just from a testing question...cause I've had small voids in the past that had sanding fill that went clear after adding thin CA...? Let us know if you resolve this.
 
I'm thinking if there was a chemical incompatibility the whole blank would be affected instead of just the voids. It almost looks like sanding dust in the voids, did you try just blowing it out?

I'm also wondering if (after you get ride of the white stuff) you could manually fill the voids with thick CA, then put a few more overall coats of medium, then sand it smooth... What would that produce?
 
I'm with Dave, Charles. In the body shop those fish eyes were always caused by some type of contamination, oil, wax or even worse, silicon. Try sanding it back to the wood, washing it with some acetone or if available, precleano, a tar, wax, silicon, oil remover used in almost all body shops. The product is most likely miss-spelled but it is called pre-clean-o. Best of luck with fixing the problem.
The other Charles
 
It looks to me that you have fine dust from sanding the CA. It is very tenacious. I use a small toothbrush to remove it. But the best thing is not to let it happen. If you sand with some medium CA the slurry will fill the voids and it will all look the same. Check out the you tube videos done by Russ Fairfield. His way of doing a CA finish is great and it addresses this problem.
 
Is the problem uniform around the barrel ? If not , it suggests that the stabilization was done on a slab , then cut into blanks , with the exterior surface becoming contaminated before it was cut . If someone used a silicon spray as a release agent , I would expect the problem to be in the voids , because the contamination would have been turned away from the rest . Taking the finish entirely off might not cure the problem . Also , the cleaning solutions are made to work on a hard impermeable surface , not voids in wood . The only sure solution might be to overturn , then re-cast the barrel . Hope you get away with something short of that . We look forward to your usual superb photo of an outstanding pen .
 
I contacted the seller to know what type of stabilizing process he use.

I think the whole blank has some incompatibility the voids are worst.

I did try to blow out the sanding powder/white marks with my compressor, it did not work. I tried to wipe acetone on it, while the blank was wet the white marks disappeared and they came back when dry. The void are sealed with 7 coats of med CA.

C

76winger said:
I'm thinking if there was a chemical incompatibility the whole blank would be affected instead of just the voids. It almost looks like sanding dust in the voids, did you try just blowing it out?

I'm also wondering if (after you get ride of the white stuff) you could manually fill the voids with thick CA, then put a few more overall coats of medium, then sand it smooth... What would that produce?
Click to expand...
 
Hey Charles! :)

Good suggestion! I have a lot of patience to apply multiple coats of CA but I do not have patience when it turn bad, actually I am surprised it is not in the garbage bin, yet.

The other Charles! :P

ctubbs said:
I'm with Dave, Charles. In the body shop those fish eyes were always caused by some type of contamination, oil, wax or even worse, silicon. Try sanding it back to the wood, washing it with some acetone or if available, precleano, a tar, wax, silicon, oil remover used in almost all body shops. The product is most likely miss-spelled but it is called pre-clean-o. Best of luck with fixing the problem.
The other Charles
Click to expand...
 
I know this method, i prefer to see the deepness of voids in my pens. :)

As I said, this is the only wood this problem is occurring!

Charles

nava1uni said:
It looks to me that you have fine dust from sanding the CA. It is very tenacious. I use a small toothbrush to remove it. But the best thing is not to let it happen. If you sand with some medium CA the slurry will fill the voids and it will all look the same. Check out the you tube videos done by Russ Fairfield. His way of doing a CA finish is great and it addresses this problem.
Click to expand...
 
I was afraid to apply CA over to trap the white spot, I have an obsession with not leaving any sanding dust in voids. I think it would be still white.

Charles

wiset1 said:
Well, I've had issues with voids before and added CA while the blank was stationary and smoothed out with my finger and let it dry. After that I sanded smooth and started with the final layers of CA. The voids look like they are retaining some of the stick and the sanded dust from the dry CA is lodging in the voids and curing. I'm wondering...if you added thin CA to the voids will the white spots turn clear or stay white? Just from a testing question...cause I've had small voids in the past that had sanding fill that went clear after adding thin CA...? Let us know if you resolve this.
Click to expand...
 
The problem is uniform.

Wow that sound like a pain in the ... I might end up only with the photos in this post! :P

Charles

1080Wayne said:
Is the problem uniform around the barrel ? If not , it suggests that the stabilization was done on a slab , then cut into blanks , with the exterior surface becoming contaminated before it was cut . If someone used a silicon spray as a release agent , I would expect the problem to be in the voids , because the contamination would have been turned away from the rest . Taking the finish entirely off might not cure the problem . Also , the cleaning solutions are made to work on a hard impermeable surface , not voids in wood . The only sure solution might be to overturn , then re-cast the barrel . Hope you get away with something short of that . We look forward to your usual superb photo of an outstanding pen .
Click to expand...
 
The finish on the upper picture looks remarkably like some reel seats I finished that had silicone applied and I didn't know it. They didn't "fisheye", they just wouldn't finish!
 
I've had this happen several times on both stabilized, and non-stabilized wood of all different types. I haven't really found a definite cause but it seems to happen more when I try to start out with medium or thick CA and let it spin too long before hitting with accelerator.

I usually end up sanding it down to bare wood, cleaning it like crazy with denatured alcohol and trying again.

My worst episode was with a Macasar Ebony pen, it took 8 or 9 tries to get it spot free. I was about to tell my co-worker that his pen simply wasn't meant to be.
 
On occasion when I had small dimples and voids as can be seen in those picts, I would take a tooth pick, dip it into the CA and apply a "bump" of CA over those voids. After letting it sit for an hour or so or overnight, I would turn the lathe on and give a light touch with the chisel to bring it down to the size of the rest of the pen, or at least close. Then I would hand sand with a light touch on the slight raised spots, one at a time, until it was level with the rest of the pen. No problem after that.

I would usually add a couple of layers on top to smooth the finish out all the way around.

I have used amboyna green, dried and stabilized and found no difference in them accepting CA.
 
Last edited:
Unless the seller did the stabilizing I doubt he will know what the stabilization chemistry is. I do not apply a finish to stabilized wood. The acrylic used for stabilization should polish and buff to a brilliant shine. The problem is "stabilized wood" has no standard meaning. Soaking wood with thin CA and calling it stabilized (not saying this is what you are doing) or soakiing wood in polyurathane or Minwax wood hardner isn't even close to stabilized wood from WSSI or River Ridge Products.
Do a good turn daily!
Don
 
Hey Don,

This type of stabilization is not the heavier type/closed pore stabilization, acrylic based I think. I went through some of his listing and I found this:

For any items that are identified as 'stabilized' in the listing title, this paragraph would apply. There are many methods of wood stabilization in use today and each has its own characteristics, merits and are successful at creating a piece of stabilized wood.

Each method has its place and I do not wish to debate the various aspects of other products. My stabilization process uses the Pentacryl/Wood Juice line of acrylic resin products. My equipment and system design was built with oversight by the senior chemical engineer at Preservation Solutions.

Briefly, this process submerges the wood pieces in heated vats of the solution until the pieces are thoroughly saturated with the acrylic resin followed by a curing process. This method lines the cell walls of the wood with acrylic resin. This provides additional strength to the cell walls and makes them stable and resistant to the normal cellular collapse that happens as wood loses its moisture.

Since the acrylic resin does not fill the entire cell cavity the wood retains the look and feel of its natural character. So to answer your question; the difference between the "plasticized" wood is that the plasticization process adds noticeable weight and the feel of hard plastic to the wood. The product that I use does not produce this "plastic feel".
Click to expand...
Charles

its_virgil said:
Unless the seller did the stabilizing I doubt he will know what the stabilization chemistry is. I do not apply a finish to stabilized wood. The acrylic used for stabilization should polish and buff to a brilliant shine. The problem is "stabilized wood" has no standard meaning. Soaking wood with thin CA and calling it stabilized (not saying this is what you are doing) or soakiing wood in polyurathane or Minwax wood hardner isn't even close to stabilized wood from WSSI or River Ridge Products.
Do a good turn daily!
Don
Click to expand...
 
CharlesH said:
I know this method, i prefer to see the deepness of voids in my pens. :)

As I said, this is the only wood this problem is occurring!
Click to expand...
Voids will inevitably gather CA dust... but i guess you can blow it off before the next layer. It seems the problem is the CA is not completely cured in the voids and does trap the dust. Maybe you should wait a bit more before sanding?
 
Acetone will break down your CA finish. When I want to float something out I use DNA. DNA and a soft toothbrush does the trick for me.
 
I would work on building up a thicker coat before you sand any, so you can sand down and to the voids and get a smooth finish in the end without the pits that are gathering the CA dust. I've never had a problem with the white dust staying after the next coat of CA, it is basically powdered CA and the next coat should re-disolve it into itself (possible that if you're using thin this may not have time to happen, but I only use thin for the first coat or 2 and us only medium after that...)

I generally do not sand until I know my finish is thick enough to fill the voids. Not saying I've never sanded, but I prefer if the CA is getting bumpy or otherwise and needs to be smoothed out, I use my skew to knock the high points down, which doesn't produce as much dust and leaves the voids clean.

Of course, nothing in the photos to me looked like what I would expect to be an issue with stabilization, so I may not be seeing what you're issue really is...
 
I have had a similar problem with silicone shop rags. Shop rags red, blue, white or etc. are produce and cleaned with a silicone agent to assist with the next wash in the commercil cleaning. The silicone or like substance, oil, wd40 or penetrating products have caused havoc with some of my finishes and it seems to stay in the rag forever. Once I found the source,"shop rags", removed then from my shop, the problem was removed. Hope this helps. Richard Van Hulle, Aiken Pen & Pencil.
 
Richard Van Hulle said:
I have had a similar problem with silicone shop rags. Shop rags red, blue, white or etc. are produce and cleaned with a silicone agent to assist with the next wash in the commercil cleaning. The silicone or like substance, oil, wd40 or penetrating products have caused havoc with some of my finishes and it seems to stay in the rag forever. Once I found the source,"shop rags", removed then from my shop, the problem was removed. Hope this helps. Richard Van Hulle, Aiken Pen & Pencil.
Click to expand...


I had this same problem! found out it was the shop rags also I was using. The problem I had actually looked exactly like the examples in the first post.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom