Some More Intellectual Property Information

[SteveG]

Q: What do you call a group of 600 lawyers, all chained together, on the floor of the ocean?

Ans: A good start.

(This post made purely for humor purposes. My lawyer says to make it clear that I am not in any way, condoning "...chaining together 600 lawyers on the floor of the ocean."

 

[KenB259]

Q: What do you call a group of 600 lawyers, all chained together, on the floor of the ocean?

Ans: A good start.

(This post made purely for humor purposes. My lawyer says to make it clear that I am not in any way, condoning "...chaining together 600 lawyers on the floor of the ocean."

I love the disclaimer as much as the joke

 

[ed4copies]

IF the question could be answered DEFINITIVELY, there would be no need for lawyers or courts.
Clearly, there is room for interpretation.

 

[jttheclockman]

Ken said it correct and goes back to my point. This has been argued till the cows come home. Who says what and when and what are all the circumstances. Mike I have to say you are throwing some shade here. You said cops work on the assumption of all things are black and white and again this is just not true. That is why lawyers get the money they do to find those loop holes and grey areas. Yes get 1000 lawyers and you will get 1000 different answers. Same thing with what is the best finish on a pen. Grey areas because humans are involved. It is not computers that is making these decisions. I do not make blanks to sell and most my pens sold are one of a kind and if I make a MM pen I will show it here and if someone wants me to make them one I will do it. I do not advertise and sell on open forums. Good luck.

I can give so many examples of different items that are made into something it was not intended but uses so called IP infringement items. I have on my table a Budweiser pen blank along with a Chevy silverado blank that will be made into a pen. I make many clocks with all kinds of inserts. I will not lose sleep over this stuff. If ever asked to desist I will comply if it is warrented.

 

[Sataro]

Did they give any other reason? It would seem that selling a Louis Vuitton purse as a Louis Vuitton purse would not be any problem. If you couldn't use a company's name to sell the company's product (as long as it is in it's original form) the used car industry would cease to exist! No one could ever sell anything that they no longer needed on line or in classified ads. I'd be interested in knowing what the problem was.

No other reason given. From what I gathered from their conversation was that they assumed I was selling fake purses. They did not want to consider that my used purses were actually real Louis Vuitton purses that people was willing to get rid of. Easier for me to drop the issue & move on to other items that was selling…

 

[mbroberg]

If that is what you want to do JT, as I said in a previous post, go for it. I really have no problem at all what you do and it is not my intention to be the IAP's IP cop. If, (and I hope it never does) come down to it I don't think your argument would get you very far. But that would be your problem to handle, not mine. As for me, I don't lose any sleep over it either because I don't do it, because I don't think it is legal or ethical. You are obviously OK with it, so good for you Just like you and I, others must make up their own minds. Sharing information and opinions is a good thing.

Anyone can produce a multitude of examples of "different items that are made into something it was not intended but uses so called IP infringement items." that really proves nothing. I could give you a multitude of examples of any number of illegal actions that are performed daily by various individuals. Murder to traffic violations to tax fraud to stealing office supplies from your employer. These all occur daily, nationwide. Does that make it OK, legal, and ethical to do just because others do it all of the time? Good luck making that argument in court.

(By the way, I retired at the rank of lieutenant (that's two promotions if you weren't aware) after 35 years of service on the 15th largest police department in the country. I am willing to bet that I know a little bit more about "cop culture" than you do. )

 

[sorcerertd]

Disney IP hunters are probably reading this thread.

 

[Aces-High]

I have seen several pens made from playing cards. Is it not the same case that applies to them? Is the art on the card also IP? It gets so convoluted...

 

[penicillin]

Be careful about what you find on Wikipedia.

There is no 'peer review' or 'curation' process on the articles published on Wikipedia. While some articles may have been written by authorities, it is also possible that articles published by Wikipedia are little more than the opinions of people whose understanding of the subjects they are writing about is seriously flawed.

Good point, and I do keep that in mind when I read Wikipedia articles. I can safely say that in general, Wikipedia is a good starting point when I am looking for information on something I don't already know. Sometimes I post links to Wikipedia articles when I want to steer someone towards an overview, survey, or outline of the topic. Wikipedia is very good at that. Wikipedia gets you bootstrapped, but I would not cite it is as an authoritative source to win arguments or bar bets.

There have been a variety of studies comparing Wikipedia with traditional encyclopedias with varying results. Some studies show that Wikipedia is not as reliable or more biased than traditional encyclopedias, while others have shown Wikipedia to be comparable. It is my personal belief that Wikipedia articles on more subjective topics such as "pop culture", celebrities, politics, religion, etc. may be less accurate and/or more biased than articles on more objective topics such as math, science, technical, etc.

Regarding this thread, I will point out that I read the actual court rulings, which are a matter of public record. The content of those court rulings should be indisputable. The interpretation of what they actually mean and especially how they affect penturners who incorporate genuine Mickey Mouse watch faces in their pens is open to debate.

 

[monophoto]

It is my personal belief that Wikipedia articles on more subjective topics such as "pop culture", celebrities, politics, religion, etc. may be less accurate and/or more biased than articles on more objective topics such as math, science, technical, etc.

Agree fully - I find Wikipedia to be an excellent, accessible source of factual information about things and events, but I would be very hesitant to follow Wikipedia advice on issues related to medicine or law.

 

[jttheclockman]

If that is what you want to do JT, as I said in a previous post, go for it. I really have no problem at all what you do and it is not my intention to be the IAP's IP cop. If, (and I hope it never does) come down to it I don't think your argument would get you very far. But that would be your problem to handle, not mine. As for me, I don't lose any sleep over it either because I don't do it, because I don't think it is legal or ethical. You are obviously OK with it, so good for you Just like you and I, others must make up their own minds. Sharing information and opinions is a good thing.

Anyone can produce a multitude of examples of "different items that are made into something it was not intended but uses so called IP infringement items." that really proves nothing. I could give you a multitude of examples of any number of illegal actions that are performed daily by various individuals. Murder to traffic violations to tax fraud to stealing office supplies from your employer. These all occur daily, nationwide. Does that make it OK, legal, and ethical to do just because others do it all of the time? Good luck making that argument in court.

(By the way, I retired at the rank of lieutenant (that's two promotions if you weren't aware) after 35 years of service on the 15th largest police department in the country. I am willing to bet that I know a little bit more about "cop culture" than you do. )

You may in your district Mike. I am not going to fight you on either of these things and yes it is up to the individual to make their own decisions. I know what mine are and to me not immoral at all. Yor interpretation is your opinion. I am out of this mine field because it is a no win thing. Good luck with your adventures and please do not break the law. Cameras everywhere.

 

[mbroberg]

I have seen several pens made from playing cards. Is it not the same case that applies to them? Is the art on the card also IP? It gets so convoluted...

It depends on who you ask

 

[TellicoTurning]

Q: What do you call a group of 600 lawyers, all chained together, on the floor of the ocean?

Ans: POLLUTION

(This post made purely for humor purposes. My lawyer says to make it clear that I am not in any way, condoning "...chaining together 600 lawyers on the floor of the ocean."

 

[TellicoTurning]

On the subject of Intellect property, I once made a bottle stopper from Spectraply Dandelion pattern... a green and yellow blank that reminded me of John Deere colors... (My neighbor is a farmer and drives a relatively new John Deere tractor)... I put the stopper on ETSY, described it as being John Deere colors in my color description.... ETSY got a letter from John Deere that they passed to me to "Cease and desist"....

In another post to ETSY I had a set of wine glasses that had little glass balls of various colors between the bulb of the glass and the stem... I cut the stem and put wooden stems on the glasses... made a colorful set of wine glasses.... the glasses were actually made by "Fiesta" glass company... in my description I mentioned that this was a set of glasses set for a fiesta (a party)... also got a cease and desist letter from Fiesta glass company through ETSY.....

it was easier to change my descriptions than to argue... especially over a $35 bottle stopper and a $40 set of glasses.

Peoples are so sensitive.

 

[Monty]

So, my understanding is that I can't buy IP licensed blank, make a pen and legally sell it?

 

[mbroberg]

So, my understanding is that I can't buy IP licensed blank, make a pen and legally sell it?

That is my understanding. But it would depend on the type of license. @PTownSubbie sells casings engraved with the logos of our armed forces. I know he paid a bunch of cash to obtain the type of licenses that carry over to the purchaser of those cartridges. Each cartridge comes with one of those holographic tags like what is seen on sports apparel that display team logos.

 

[Gregf]

Gray areas of law exist to make work for lawyers. I would bet if you posed the IP questions to 2 lawyers you would have 2 different answers. Using IP in artwork can be equally vague. I don't remember the source of the article but if you use IP in an artwork and it is not the focus of the piece it could be ok. Doing a collage that incorporates a bottle cap could be ok. But as it's been said, there is a risk using IP in any way. I use magazine covers and the logo from Highlights in pens that I give away. But I asked for, and was granted a license first, issued by the CEO. The first pen I made was a retirement pen for the corporate counsel, whom I had an IP discussions with. He gave me a long involved process with multiple departments, to get permission to make pens. I simply went upstairs and asked the CEO. Benefit of a small company.
They aggressively enforce their IP rights as they must, but they start out with a cease and desist letter first.

 

[Gregf]

I had to laugh back in 2019 when Ohio State filed for trademark protection of "The" when it is used to refer to Ohio State. The application was denied. I'm waiting for them to try to trademark the entire alphabet.

 

[maxwell_smart007]

People speed in their cars all the time. Just because they haven't been caught doesn't make it legal....this is pretty much the same situation, but with different players and different potential consequences.

 

[mbroberg]

I had to laugh back in 2019 when Ohio State filed for trademark protection of "The" when it is used to refer to Ohio State. The application was denied. I'm waiting for them to try to trademark the entire alphabet.

They were also claiming rights for OSU. That did not sit will with Oklahoma State University. The two schools ended up litterally splitting the country. Basically, OSU is trademarked to Ohio State in the east, and to Oklahoma State in the west.

 

[JohnU]

I am not a lawyer. I am not directly affected, because I don't make art like that.

What caught me by surprise were the statements above that you cannot legally purchase a Mickey Mouse watch and then take it apart, remove the watch face with the copyrighted image of Mickey, and put it in a pen or other art object that you create. I assumed that the First Sale Doctrine applies and should allow you to do just that. I started by looking at the Wikipedia article on First Sale Doctrine.

The Limitations section of the Wikipedia article on First Sale Doctrine presents two conflicting US Court of Appeals opinions. One says yes, one says no. I read the two opinions that were mentioned. Even though I am not a lawyer, they are written in English and were understandable to me. I can't say which is right, although the (7th Circuit) Lee vs. A.R.T. came later and cites the (9th Circuit) MIRAGE vs. Albuquerque ART opinion.

Lee vs. A.R.T. (7th Circuit) says that it is not a copyright violation to buy a book, tear out pages from that book (which had artistic images), and then mount them on separate tiles to sell. Under First Sale Doctrine, the original copyright holder of the book did not prevail in their copyright infringement lawsuit.

-> If the court has ruled that it is permissible to tear pages from a copyrighted book and then mount them to separate tiles and sell the tiles, can someone explain to me why is it not permissible to "tear out" the Micky Mouse face from a watch and then mount it to a pen blank or the final result, a pen? In that case the image itself has not been modified, just as in the Lee vs. A.R.T. case. In other words, is the 7th Circuit opinion sufficient precedent and justification that allows people to take a Mickey Mouse watch and mount the watch face in a pen?

Are there any intellectual property lawyers here who can answer the question definitively?

Links:
Wikipedia on First Sale limitations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine#Limitations
9th Circuit Court Opinion in MIRAGE vs. Albuquerque ART (1988):
https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=1465323101896646559
Later 7th Circuit Court Opinion in Lee vs. A.R.T. (1997):
https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=7811317241368435030

I read over these same publishings back in my research about this often debated subject. I've also spoke to a few people who work in the fields of defending and compliance of these rules. The only thing I have ever found to be constant is that much of it is left to interpretation and comes down to how much you are willing to spend to defend your side. Only a judge can positively say you are wrong. First doctrine and Laws like these are seldom cut and dry. Attorneys would not have a job if they were.
I've always been told… don't reproduce their product, use their name or bring disrespect to their image and if they don't like what you're doing -stop.
I believe the main reason holders get their way (because by law they have to defend their pattens and rights to keep them) is because they have deep pockets and can spend much more than the average person. If you think about it, a lot of man made materials could fall under this scrutiny…. Collectible Playing and sports cards, stamps, bottle caps, cigar bands, fabrics, etc.
Sadly there just isn't an easy answer and individual circumstances are always going to be an influence.

 

[mbroberg]

The only thing I have ever found to be constant is that much of it is left to interpretation and comes down to how much you are willing to spend to defend your side. Only a judge can positively say you are wrong.

That is probably the best question in this whole thread. How much are you willing to spend to defend yourself?

 

[penicillin]

I read over these same publishings back in my research about this often debated subject. I've also spoke to a few people who work in the fields of defending and compliance of these rules. [...]

From your research and discussions with experts, have you found relevant rulings that supersede or have a later date than Lee vs. A.R.T. (U.S. Court of Appeals, 7th Circuit, 1997)?

 

[Woodchipper]

On the subject of Intellect property, I once made a bottle stopper from Spectraply Dandelion pattern... a green and yellow blank that reminded me of John Deere colors... (My neighbor is a farmer and drives a relatively new John Deere tractor)... I put the stopper on ETSY, described it as being John Deere colors in my color description.... ETSY got a letter from John Deere that they passed to me to "Cease and desist"....

In another post to ETSY I had a set of wine glasses that had little glass balls of various colors between the bulb of the glass and the stem... I cut the stem and put wooden stems on the glasses... made a colorful set of wine glasses.... the glasses were actually made by "Fiesta" glass company... in my description I mentioned that this was a set of glasses set for a fiesta (a party)... also got a cease and desist letter from Fiesta glass company through ETSY.....

it was easier to change my descriptions than to argue... especially over a $35 bottle stopper and a $40 set of glasses.

Peoples are so sensitive.

But you can buy factory paint for farm equipment at Tractor Supply. So you can't use it on your farm equipment w/o JD's permission?

 

[TellicoTurning]

But you can buy factory paint for farm equipment at Tractor Supply. So you can't use it on your farm equipment w/o JD's permission?

What do you do with a company that won't even let you work on a tractor that you bought and paid for?
I understand JD frowns on owners working on their own equipment.

 

[Monty]

What do you do with a company that won't even let you work on a tractor that you bought and paid for?
I understand JD frowns on owners working on their own equipment.

I think I heard the same thing about Tesla.

 

[jttheclockman]

People speed in their cars all the time. Just because they haven't been caught doesn't make it legal....this is pretty much the same situation, but with different players and different potential consequences.

And then there are the cops that say you were speeding to raise revenue. Oh yes it happens. That is why the need for dash cams is one item I would love to see all car maker start either optioning it or make it mandatory. but again grey area with the law. Just like haveing radar detectors in your car in certain states. Talk about entrapment most towns where I live have gone to all blacked out trooper cars. So immoral should not be allowed to be discussed here. We can not talk about politics, the war and things like that but open-ended topic like this is fuel for controversy.

You can easily make a long list of things we do with pens that are not so called moral. If you are making cigar band cigar pens, bottle cap blanks, watch pens with any name on the dial or parts within, I make golfball clocks, any pens with military logos or any clocks with them or bottlestoppers with the tie tacks off you go to jail.

 

[penicillin]

What do you do with a company that won't even let you work on a tractor that you bought and paid for?
I understand JD frowns on owners working on their own equipment.

I think I heard the same thing about Tesla.

This is a side-discussion and deserves its own thread. If you're interested, do a web search for "Right to Repair". I like the Wikipedia and iFixit web pages on that topic, and there are many other good ones.

 

[Sylvanite]

This is about as simple as I can make it:

For details on exactly what you may or may not do with someone else's intellectual property (including but not limited to trademarks and copyrighted images), refer to your license agreement.

If you don't have a license agreement, then you are not permitted to use someone else's intellectual property for commercial purposes. There are some "fair use" exemptions for personal use, but those are outside the scope of this discussion.

Regards,
Eric

 

[Woodchipper]

There is a gray area for IP. Best thing is to avoid it by not using anything that is copyrighted or patented, etc.

 

[jttheclockman]

If I sold these can I go to jail?? And would anybody come and visit?

 

[penicillin]

If I sold these can I go to jail?? And would anybody come and visit?
(Images of objects with IAP logos)

Yes and no. ... but somebody here might mail you a cake with a file inside. A cheap file that we can afford to lose, not a "hand stitched" one.

 

[Penultimate]

I have recently began to interface with my employer's IP lawyers while some folks do not like those calls I find them both educational and entertaining. The call involves our head IP lawyer and two lawyers who work for him. They each have different thoughts and approaches to what is and is not IP and how to try and capture it for our company.

Some tidbits gleaned from these calls:
- a company wants to try and define their individual IP pursuits as broadly as possible as this gives them more leeway to pursue violations in the future. Example: patent your chair as a device with legs on which you can sit. (Covers a lot of ground)
- if patentable, a lot depends on the individual assigned by the patent office to review your patent. Example: Some will let more generalizations pass and others want it very tight and specific.
- one of the conversations in pursuing IP is how difficult or easy it will be I'm the future to discover violation of your IP. Example: if it is not easy to notice how can you protect it.
- Just as fascinating is the volume of stuff that cannot be protected. Examples: you cannot claim IP on a color. You cannot claim IP on a word that can be considered common. Example: Army, football, shuttle.

I always assumed that IP was fairly black and white but it is obviously very gray once you get to work on it first hand.

Hi,
You can protect color thru trademarks and tradedress (forms of IP). DeWalt vigorously protects their yellow color in the tool space. DW made a tool company remove their yellow tools from their booth during the National Hardware Show.
At a previous company, I applied for trade dress for a product and it included shape and color. It helped the company protect an iconic shape and color from obvious copies.

 

[low_48]

Hi,
You can protect color thru trademarks and tradedress (forms of IP). DeWalt vigorously protects their yellow color in the tool space. DW made a tool company remove their yellow tools from their booth during the National Hardware Show.
At a previous company, I applied for trade dress for a product and it included shape and color. It helped the company protect an iconic shape and color from obvious copies.

No company spends as much as Caterpillar to defend it's yellow color.

 

[MRDucks2]

Mike & Rich - Thank you both for taking the time to further prove my statement regarding the fact that a color cannot be protected.

You cannot protect a color. Colors belong to all. You can protect the use of a color. If you take the yellow of Dewalt tools and apply to your buggy with no Dewalt reference there is nothing they can do.

Even in the example you applied for shape and color. My company has a logo in a certain shape with certain colors and combined they are protected.

Same thing with Caterpillar. You can paint your house the same color yellow with no Caterpillar reference and you are safe.

 

[Monty]

It's going to be interesting to see what happens in the Elvis impersonator and wedding chapels in Las Vegas that have received cease and desist letters after they have been doing this for over 20 years.

 

[jttheclockman]

It's going to be interesting to see what happens in the Elvis impersonator and wedding chapels in Las Vegas that have received cease and desist letters after they have been doing this for over 20 years.

How about all the late night host that do impersonations. Even SNL over the years.

 

[TellicoTurning]

It's going to be interesting to see what happens in the Elvis impersonator and wedding chapels in Las Vegas that have received cease and desist letters after they have been doing this for over 20 years.

Some of those impersonators need to cease and desist.... we had a fellow at the farmer's market a few years ago that did Elvis impersonations.... he was over weight, not very good, and tended to wear the tight white jumpsuit with nothing underneath.... the market management finally told him there was too much jiggle and he needed to move on. His mother was his DJ and not sure he was perking on all cylinders.

 

[Monty]

My previous link I posted about was supposed to link to this article.
Should be an article entitled Elvis image banned at Vegas chapels

 

[Monty]

Some of those impersonators need to cease and desist.... we had a fellow at the farmer's market a few years ago that did Elvis impersonations.... he was over weight, not very good, and tended to wear the tight white jumpsuit with nothing underneath.... the market management finally told him there was too much jiggle and he needed to move on. His mother was his DJ and not sure he was perking on all cylinders.

From the article I read -
The order should not translate into legal action against Elvis-themed stage shows in Las Vegas such as "All Shook Up" because impersonating someone for a live performances like shows is considered an exception under Nevada's right of publicity law,