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beck3906

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Joined
Aug 13, 2005
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2,155
Location
Belton, TX 76513
Seems my shop is taking much longer to start building than I had thought. Also, after getting quotes and such, the size is coming down. It's still a good size at 32x40 to allow me a nice place to retire to in my later years.

We decided to begin building the shop at the same time we begin the house so the different crews can switch from one to the other. Our expectations are to begin both house and shop within the next 30 days. The slow part of the process has been getting the plans for the house finalized. A roof design and trusses for the house cost about 6 weeks for various reasons.

I've attached a preliminary drawing for comment and suggestions. We have to make certain allowances for the deed restrictions and we also wanted the front to somewhat mimic the facade of the house.

The work room will be where I have a couple of mini-lathes with sharpening grinders, etc, so I can keep it air conditioned The room in the upper right corner will be for the dust collector and air compressor so I can keep the noise level down.

I opted to not have floor mounted outlets as I wanted to allow for multi-use should we need to sell in our later years. I was also concerned about the floor outlets filling with saw dust, etc. I plan on having retractable reels hanging from the ceiling to use for power to the center of the room.

My main purpose here is to ask if anyone has installed a tankless water heater and can give pros/cons from their experience. I want a water heater in the shop but want to consider saving space by using a tankless system.

Any suggestions would be welcome as we're still able to make changes. I may add more outlets to the design once we get the walls up and depending on cost. SWMBO flips out when I suggest having an outlet every 2-3 feet. :tongue:
 

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My son, who lives in Houston has one and loves it. It is a 220 V Bosch and is used for his entire house. I tried a small 110V sink one and took it out. The sink version requires a very slow water flow to work. I was going to put in the larger unit (220V) but my breaker box is the opposite corner of the house and the copper wire would of cost more than the heater 2x over.
My advice is check what water flow you need and add 50% to it to play it safe.
 
I have propane tank less water heaters. They are great when more than one person is taking a shower in a small time frame they never run out once the hot water gets there. MY dad has the electric ones at his house. They have different size units on their house a smaller one for the kitchen sink / dishwasher.It is a 220 and It works very well. The only draw back is very low water flow like at a trickle will not kick on the heater. You don't have to have them run full open but you do have to have a minimum of water flow to make them work. Its a safety thing. tank less hot water heaters use almost no electricity other than the monitoring circuits when your not using them.

I would suggest that the lights and wall plugs are on different circuits. Also break your wall plugs up into 2 or 3 circuits. I have double receptacles at 42 inches off the floor at 8ft on centers around my shop. Most tools have 4 ft of chord or longer these days.

A couple of other tips for you to think about. check into having your house and or shop insulated by spraying foam on the bottom of the roof. NO venting needed no fiberglass or blown insulation to deal with and your dead airspace above the ceiling remains alot cooler. We did that for every house we built. And we built one of the most energy efficient houses there are. SO tight that the houses had to have a fresh air exchanger built into the ac system. Double pane insulated windows low E tinted light grey. This things add expense at the start but they keep giving back immediately over the life of the house. We also designed our houses with the air handler in a dedicated closet. They run more efficiently are easier to maintain and work on. Also you might want to check into having your roofers use Fire and ice 6in wide asphaltic tape on the joints of the the roof sheathing. IT adheres to the wood and seals it keeping it from leaking if you loose part of your roof. Its been found that most of the water damage in the houses during and then more after the hurricanes took the roofing material off was rain water pouring down the seams made by putting the clips around the sheathing. We used 5/8 plywood but a lot of contractors use 1/2 osb. Good luck and have fun with your new home
 
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When i was building my cabin i looked into the tankless water heater, that was 18 years ago, so they might have improved on them since. I have a deep well and they said the water would be too cold and that i would need a holding tank to store the water before it goes into tankless water heater. So if i needed a tank i might as well just go coventional. Anyway, something to think about if you have a well. Carl
 
Rick:
I put a lot of thought and effort into building the shop, when we built our house.

The things I am happiest about doing is:
Lights and recepticle on separate circuits:
Outlets every 4 feet and 4 feet off the floor
Including multiple cable outlets and high speed Internet.
Plumbing for shower, toilet and sink (haven't hooked up toilet or shower yet, but use the sink regularly).
Including HVAC ducting for separate system Heat & AC
2 - 10 foot overhead doors, extra height garage doors.
Putting twice as many high output light fixtures as I thought I would need
Wiring and plumbing for refrigerator and ice maker.
Rubber floors and multiple shop cabinets.

Things I wish I had included.
Separate "outdoor" room for dust collection. Even the quietest ones sound like a freight train.
"chases" in floor large enough to accommodate "easily reconfigurable power and dc ducting
Emergency lighting in case of power failure.
Video monitor to look out for UPS and USPS deliveries.
 
As for hot water, tankless systems are better than ever but still not perfect. The real "endless hot water" systems still require gas - natural or propane. Gas requires special piping and venting considerations and are less flexible to renovating spaces and retro fitting as technology advances.

We have a very big house with split hot water systems. We chose the split systems with recirculatin pumps and electronic timers. We always have plenty of hot water when and where we need it. Additionally, I can change the programming from anywhere with Internet access.

I'd also recommend, at least at little bit of home automation, throughout the home.
 
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When our daughter moved back in after college, we played shower roulette...we finally decided to try the tankless water heater (natural gas) and it, without doubt, is the best decision we ever made....some people were telling us that it took a while for the water to heat up if you just wanted a small bit for, say, shaving...we have never had any problems with anything...plenty of hot water even if we run the dishwasher same time someone is in the shower.

As for electrical outlets in my shop...no matter what i seem to do, there is never enough. Luckily i left plenty of empty spaces in the breaker panel to add new breakers...including space for more 220v's.
 
My propane water heaters are mounted outside the house so venting is not a problem. it is also easier to move if for some unknown reason someone wanted to move them. I also am on well water as is my dad who has the electric versions. We dont have freeze issues to deal with.
 
mredburn said:
My propane water heaters are mounted outside the house so venting is not a problem. it is also easier to move if for some unknown reason someone wanted to move them. I also am on well water as is my dad who has the electric versions. We dont have freeze issues to deal with.
Click to expand...


The outdoor units are a much more viable alternative in warmer climates, such as mine and yours. We could have possibly used the system you describe, except our water supply is from a deep underground aquifer. This presented several challenges for the tankless guys (nearly 7 years, ago). Some of the challenges were the incoming water temp and others challenges were dealing with the sediment filtration, water softening, etc.

Bottom line for us, was the guy designing our system specialized in tankless systems. He recommended the "smart home split system" as a better alternative for us. As he said, each individual's requirement will be different, depending on things such as location, schedules and even the home's design.
 
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Obviously check with your local building codes, but you may be required to have outlets every so many feet.

Also floor mounted outlets are almost never a good idea, and again my not be allowed under your local codes. The reasons are basically the ones you mentioned, they may fill up with junk, water ( in the event of a flood, broken pipe) etc.

In my shop I set all my wall plugs at 1 foot above my bench height ( I have a built in bench/storage around the perimeter of the shop). This make it really convenient to plugin power tools, no need to crawl on the floor looking for outlets.

I wish I had added several ceiling outlets with a switch on the wall, this would make adding extra lighting in specific work areas more convenient. As it is now I have 4 different switches to completely light my differnt work area's. Which is kind of annoying when shutting down.

I love my tank less water heater. Just keep in mind that it works on a temp. raise not at a set temp. What I mean is you can program your tank water heater to provide 105 Degree water. The max temp of a tank less water heater is based on the source temp of water flowing in. It can raise the temp of the source water between 45-75 degrees depending on your heater model. So if you are using really cold ground water as your source you may not get the really hot water your used to with your tank system, unless you buy the higher grade model.
Also demand will determine the temp of the water as well. If you have 4 showers and a washing machine going at once, the water will be colder than if you only have 1. Your contractor should discuss sizing issues with you to address that.


Just my 2cents.
 
32x40 is a wonderful size for a shop. I do not have much experience for the tankless heater, but I can tell you some idea's for your shop! My shop is that same size. My first tip is to install a roll up door on both ends of the building. I have a 16 footer in the front and a 9 foot in the back. This gives you a ton of advantages, because if you are doing shop work and bringing in supplies, and also want to store a few personal items like a lawn mower, nothing gets blocked in when you have an exit on both ends.

Lumber tip...check out your local lumber stores..I'd ask your contractors where the most popular lumber suppliers contractors use are located. Where I am at, MPC is the most popular..not the most popular for people, that would likely be Lowes, but the most popular for contractors! Contractors return damaged or unused materials. If there is a 2x14 with a crack in it, they send it back. If it's warped, twisted, they send it back. Typically all this returned material is put in a pile, and I do mean a pile..like I'm talking bigger than the entire size of my silverado pick up truck! I bought the materials for the structure of my pole barn, the beams, you know whole package for the building, and then I also bought one of those huge piles of rejects..$400 for the pile which took up an entire 16' flatbed truck and they delivered it free..if I hadn't bought the other materials, it woulda cost me an extra $50. I sorted that pile and pulled out the worst of the worst and chucked it into a burn pile..I'm talking everything from 2x4's to 2x18's, and a multitude of lengths. I then used my tablesaw and re-cut all the other boards into 2x6's and 2x4's. Some of the wood that was already to size but had minor twists or bows, I used those as is. I built frames inbetween all the posts with all this lumber, just like a house but thicker walls. Then could install electrical with ease, and blew in the insulation myself. Saved a fortune on all the lumber required to finish the inside of the barn. I also bought all the windows in my shop from the reject section at MPC. These were high quality windows, insulated sliders, but ordered in error, or slightly wrong size from what builder that ordered them needed so I got a steal of a deal on huge windows. Depending where you live, you can even buy used building materials, the 2x stock, or plywood, or chipboard, siding, electrical boxes, you can cut your costs of material dramatically, and all these materials, as long as they are structurally sound, they don't have to look pretty because they are inside the walls and then you cover them over with nice vinyl siding and sheetrock. That's my 2 cents for ya.
 
I can't address your heating/cooling issues, but I suggest you use quad boxes for your 110v power outlets. When I built my new shop 5 years ago I put 110v quad boxes on every other stud. I put 220v boxes on the intervening studs. I have never wanted for an outlet anywhere in the room! Be sure to use several circuits, especially on the 110v lines. The lighting should be on a separate circuit. That circuit can use #14 wire because of the light load. I set up my ceiling lights in a 'zoned' fashion so that I only need to have lights on in the area I'm working in at the moment. Because I have many battery powered devices, one of the quad boxes has become a dedicated charging station area.

Some folks have recommended putting the outlets at 42-48 inches above the floor. I recommend 50 inches as a better height so you can lean a 4 x 8 sheet(s) against the wall without covering any outlets.
 
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