Scheesch!!! --- Caution, Could Get Ugly!! ---

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cozee

cozee

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Is this board turning into a slobber fest or what? Seems that if someone offers up a bit of helpful advice in the SOYP forum instead of the typical, GREAT JOB!!!! NICE PEN!!!! WAY TO GO!!! YOUR THE TOPS!!! dribble, they get criticized for it. If this is truly an association of penturners I'd expect some feedback on my pens. I can understand letting someone know they did a good job but if the pen needs work your not helping them by not also pointing out the areas that need improvement. It also seems that if someone gets service from a company that should be providing it anyway, they (the company) receive praises and accolades that would make one think they hand delivered the order having crawled 1000 miles with it in their teeth. I have found about any company to have it's good days and bad days. Whoopee! It all equals out in the end.

We are all human (I do question some though!!) and do make mistakes whether it is in turning a pen or in filling an order. There is no need to overeact when something is done right. Nor get defensive when someone offers up honest advice about a pen.

Just an observation.
 
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It's not that I see a lot of poorly turned pens its more that I don't see anything different.

To be honest turning a pen kit B2B isn't that hard to make pretty darn perfect after the first dozen or so you make.
 
Greg, your right about the good days - bad days thing. As for the feedback on pens, I'm one of the nice jobbers you speak of. I don't feel I have enough experience under my belt to give anyone constructive criticism altho I look for it for myself.
 
When I first started here I was one of those "nice job" sorts. As I've learned more, I have tried to offer honest comments about the quality of the workmanship or creativity or the photo quality. So far, nobody has sent me any nasty emails because of any comments I've made about their work. As far as I'm concerned, if someone posts a picture in SOYP, they should be prepared for good and bad comments. If not, they shouldn't post.

I might also add that it's impossible to really critique a pen without a top quality photo. I'm starting to get tired of people talking about their poor photo quality.
 
I always appreciate the honesty that is offered in a well written critique. It's free learning, when I read the comments and critiques made on mine and other pens shown on the SOYP forum. I learn a lot from skilled and observant critiques.....so sharing in constructively written critiques helps us all.

There will always be those who feel that they are in different stages of their develpment than others think they are, sometimes you have to realize that we are all here to help...not attack... In the end it's a hobby, not open heart surgery, eh![;)]

Knowing when and how to offer a critique is also a skill.. when you get asked the question "Does my butt look big in these Jeans" is not a good time to critique if you want to be able to sleep in peace...[B)]
 
I agree that constructive critisism is wonderful. But there are pens that I just don't like because of any number of reasons...Color, Grain, Kit, Material, whatever. In those cases, I keep my big mouth shut. I limit my nice pen comments to those I think are nice.

I do appreciate the "nice job" comments from "the masters" of the group, assuming they think that what I show are nice.
 
I know what you mean. I also know that encouragement goes a long way to help people to work on their skills. A balanced response, in which the good and the improveable areas are mentioned, especially if advice is given, seems to be the best approach.
Rob
 
I think each of us has an idea of what they want to post along with a when and why. If you don't like the slobber fest that is your issue. Generally I don't comment on many pens. When I do, it is usually because I have some skin in the game...like I have given advice or provided the blank. When I post about a vendor, it is not to kiss nor to kick their butt. It is to let others know how I am being treated or it may relate to a quality issue. Most of the time, my answers to questions are offered when I have an experience or point of view that has not been expressed and that I think someone might want to consider.

I've been around long enough to know when to shut up...at least some of the time.
 
I don't comment there unless it's positive. The few times I've posted otherwise, the original poster took it personally. I've been around long enough to know who I can post honestly to and who I'd rather not. JMHO

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't there a critique forum here? I think that's the place for feedback.
 
Skye,
I've not a clue.[:D] All I know is, is that I don't know enough to critique, usually. I know that people don't generally critique my stuff, because I try to beat them to it. The few times folks have, has made me a better pen turner. I voted for the separate critique forum, but the person posting should state whether or not they want critique. I think that was Jeff's perspective and I like that better.

I mostly mention home-made center bands, because most newbies don't know about them. That's about all I'm qualified to comment on, except for maybe color, or wood useage. I've also received Lou's critique though that was offline. It really improved my technique.

Just my opinion,
Rob
 
I hope that I have never gotten offended from honest critique of my work. I really pay attention when people like Gerry and Lou offer critique/advice because they really know what they are talking about. (Disclaimer, I only used these two individuals since they posted on this thread; there are many, many others whose opinion I respect. Did that satisfy you, Ed? [;)] )

I do get a bit miffed when people talk down about B2B turning. Nothing personal, dfurlano, but there are more factors in a B2B pen that make it a good pen other than the experience earned in the first dozen pens. If we don't improve after the first dozen pens with respect to turning, sanding, finishing and assembling, I see that as a problem.

FWIW,
 
I agree with William about B2B pens. I'd like to see some stats from those of us who sell over $20k worth of pens per year what the majority of the customers prefer. My experience is that people say "cool!" when they see the wilder shapes, then they go buy pens that are B2B. I prefer to impress them with great looking wood (God's work) along with a good finish. My fancy turning skills have nothing to do with what makes a quality writing instrument.

I also agree with Cozee that people should hold their tongue when someone offers honest critique of someone's work. If they say "your work sucks", have at it. But, if they suggest you work on your finishing technique or your barrels look a little under or over turned, it should be taken as constructive criticism. We are here to learn, not just to brag.
 
Originally posted by woodpens
<br />I agree with William about B2B pens. I'd like to see some stats from those of us who sell over $20k worth of pens per year what the majority of the customers prefer. My experience is that people say "cool!" when they see the wilder shapes, then they go buy pens that are B2B. I prefer to impress them with great looking wood (God's work) along with a good finish. My fancy turning skills have nothing to do with what makes a quality writing instrument.

I also agree with Cozee that people should hold their tongue when someone offers honest critique of someone's work. If they say "your work sucks", have at it. But, if they suggest you work on your finishing technique or your barrels look a little under or over turned, it should be taken as constructive criticism. We are here to learn, not just to brag.
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You are exactly right about the pen choices Jim. I STILL have some of the most "WOW" pens that I ever made. People really like to look at them, but when they buy it is because of the beauty of the pen not how many rings and curves it has. Almost all of my pens are B2B. And yes, I do sell over 20k a year.
 
When ever I post on SOYP I'm not looking for complements unless the pen deserves it But if the shape is to fat, to skinny the finish not right, the kit should have been bk TN,Plat, or its proud at the centerband etc and I'm told that by a member who has my respect (which is just about everone here) it will only make me better and thats why posting on SOYP should not be just a back slapping, nice pen etc. That being said I am guilty of only replying to post that I like and have never given constructive criticisum as I guess I still think of myself as a newbe,after only turning 150 or so pens.
 
Greg, I hear you. And cannot find fault with anything you posted. When I first started turning pens (and it really wasn't that long ago), I'll admit that I was after some praise about what I was doing. Now when I post a pen, I do it for one of two reasons. 1) To share something new I've tried, and 2) to get the opinions of the people that know this stuff. I honsetly could not care less if I get NPGJ comments.

Now if you tell me what you particularly like or dislike about a particular design aspect of the pen, that's information I can actually use. And I truly appreciate it. That's why I always open the floor to "hammer" or "slam" away. I'm looking for feedback I can use to improve my craft. So why do I not acre about NPGJ comments? Am I the best pen crafter on the site? Heavens no!!! Not even close. I could name over a dozen regular posters that I think are better than me (but I ain't gonna 'cause I don't want to give them a big head [}:)][:D]).

But I reached self-actualization some time ago, and I won't go into when. A few of our members are responsible for that, whether they know it or not. And if all I wanted were NPGJ comments, I don't need to post anything here. I get more than I need from my customers and potential customers. Please don't take this to mean that I'm not thankful for any who take the time to respond, as that is certainly not the case! It's just not what I'm looking for. But that's me, and I fully understand that with others they may not have reached the same level of Maslow's hierarchy and they "need" the praise. I used to try and comment on every pen shown. Now I rarely do unless something really grabs me or gets my attention. I will and do, however, levy constructive comments when the floor has been opened for such. Hopefully these were taken in the spirit in which they were given. As far as I know they have been.

Y'all know that I don't do many B2B pens, but that doesn't mean they don't have their place. I doubt I'll ever turn another B2B slim, for example. I just don't care for them. But I don't hammer anyone that does... at least I don't think I do... Cav? On the other hand, I believe there are kits that look awful when not turned B2B. The Emperor, Lotus and Imperial immediately come to mind. The Gent and Statesman can be embelished a bit and still look great. But they look good B2B too, but again, I just prefer not to do them that way. I like a bit of my... let's just call it personality... in my pens, and I don't get that B2B. But that's just me. It's not Cav, and it's not Jim, and it's not many others.

Sorry... I got a bit windy! My point, if you are relatively new to this (or not and wish for comments), please don't take what some of us post to say we don't like or appreciate the pen. Take it in the spirit it was given. And that is always (at least it should be) for improvements sake. Not mad, not ranting, JMO. And Jim's last paragraph basically said what it took me 5 to say. [:0][B)]
 
Since I am not a great, by any means, pen turner. I usually limit my "Great Job" comments to pens that catch my eye for the wood, kit and plating combination. I never comment on acrylic pens, because I have no experience with them. As far as the quality of the pictures, the reason people are always apologizing for the shots is because a lot of shots are seemingly always put down. I didn't realize this was a photography forum as well as a pen forum. ( I am not saying it's a bad thing). I am not sure how anyone can do the critiques valued here from a photograph anyways. I mean, if there are sanding rings around a pen, or the blank does not meet the nib perfectly, the turner can see it just as well as anyone looking at a photo. Just my two cents.
 
I limited my comments at SOYP now and don't visit there as often as I should. I try not to critique other's work since they don't ask for it and I fear offending anyone if I offer my observation.

Re: praising vendors, I do it to those who deserved it. Some of our vendors (CSUSA, ArizonaSilhouette, members who sell wood, etc) do go further customer service wise than most that I know outside the turning world. If I can help them that way, I'll do it. Hopefully, other companies/people take notice and follow suit.
 
My reason for commenting about the quality of the photos, is that more and more people are putting up websites and posting photos there in the hope of selling pens. I have visited a lot of the members sites and seen some really great photos and some that verged on being pretty awful. If someone visits a website and can't tell what the wood looks like because the photo is out of focus or too dark or too light or the color balance is off, they won't buy anything and they probably won't come back. Those photos are the only chance you have to sell your work. Taking good photos is only marginally harder than taking crummy ones.
 
Gerry,

While I agree about photo quality...note that not everyone have nice digital cameras. You can tweak a lousy camera to no end and still come out with a crummy photo. We all have to live with what we have. I do hope those who plan on selling through websites to invest on a good camera though (especially that they are going down in price almost daily).
 
Originally posted by alamocdc
<br />But I reached self-actualization some time ago, and I won't go into when. ............ But that's me, and I fully understand that with others they may not have reached the same level of Maslow's hierarchy and they "need" the praise.
[B)]
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A great thesis on the relationship of Maslow's Hierarchy to penturning. Dang, boy! You may have just written one of the most meaningful posts ever made in IAP. Great job.
 
The forum is
SHOW OFF YOUR PENS.
That's it. Comments are made but I don't see that as the pupose of that forum.
We had the opportunity for a Critiques forum and it was turned down.
Since a pen cannot really be critiques from a picture other than shape and general design the only comment one can generally make is
NPGJ.
I don't make many comments on pens posted but if a pen really catches my eye I will P.M. the creator of it.
How many corset watsed slim lines can you see in one lifetime?
I don't care how nice the burl looked when you started if you put it in an Emporer the two confilict and detract from each other.
You really want me to tell you that you screwed up by putting the beautiful balnk in a dollar store looking kit?
 
Originally posted by alamocdc
<br />
Am I the best pen crafter on the site? Heavens no!!! Not even close. I could name over a dozen regular posters that I think are better than me (but I ain't gonna 'cause I don't want to give them a big head [}:)][:D]).
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It's OK Billy, my head won't get big if you mention my name... [:D][:D]
 
Like ctEaglest I have gotten to the point that I only comment on pens when they really catch my attention or I see that a fellow artist has broken ground in the art form. This in my humble opinion is to be commended.
I found myself looking at the pen and then immediately looking at the post count. Why? Really not sure but for some reason the post count would have an influence on whether I commented or not. So, I would open their gallery and take a close look at their work. This too would be a deciding factor. Let me tell you....There are some fabulous pens in members gallery's that I have never seen posted!
I guess in short I am not commenting on the pen being shown. I am commenting on the artists full portfolio and the advancements that we have all had the privilege of watching.
 
I'll post about anything. If I see sanding lines (which as Eagle pointed out can just be the grain of the wood sometimes), I'll tell them if the fit is off, if I don’t like the curves, if I see sanding dust under the CA, if there's air in the snakeskin, if the finish at the ends of the blank isn’t consistent, if there's a wave from the pen mill, if there's bubbles in the CA from accelerator, if the kit color is a bad choice for the blank, if the kit overwhelms the blank, if it's a bad combo of materials, if the pic is too dark, if the pic is to small. I post about them because I've done them.

Sure, sometimes pics can be deceiving, but sometimes they can show you things your eyes missed. There was one pen I made, I cant remember which, where sanding lines showed in the pic that I didn’t pick up on when I finished it. I've posted about a piece of plastic from the baggie stuck under the clip that they didn’t notice in person. Lighting is a great tool to seek out satin spots in your finish and they're obvious when a pic captures them.

It may get on some people's nerves, but I really don’t care. What I'm telling someone is something that will (probably) improve their finished product. They can either take it from me or let the customer find it when they look at it or after they’ve bought it. Personally, I’d rather find it before it gets to that point.

Everyone has seen a baby picture from someone or on the hospital wall and thought to themselves “Oh my, that’s not a cute baby!â€. Everyone’s seen one. The baby with the hairy forehead, the unibrow, the conehead. Have 20 people line up and tell the mother it’s the cutest baby they’ve ever seen, and then let them put it in a casting lineup for a Gerber commercial. Sometimes skipping the flaws and sugar coating the comments isnt the best idea.
 
I guess I'm inconsistent about my comments. If something is really special, I'll compliment. But there are frequent pens shown that are pretty awful, usually by newcomers. I choose not to discourage those folks and don't comment. I believe that with time they will see what others produce and try to improve. I will criticize lousy photography. If we can't get a decent view of something, it probably isn't worth looking at in the first place. I rarely comment on synthetic pens. For me, penturning is an adjunct to my woodworking/turning hobby. For me, it's all about the wood.
 
The true artist can turn plain/no grain wood into a pen where everyone says, "WOW!!!".

Most of the time, it is the wood that is the artist and not the turner.

Only about 1/2 of my pens are B2B anymore and those are cuz I get lazy.[:I]
 
I agree stongly with Bill's second line above about the wood is the artist and not the turner. Choosing the right piece of wood for the right pen is more important to me. I will comment on the pens that I think are nice and I know something about, the ones I know nothing about or don't appeal to me I will keep out of.

I like practical useful pens out of pretty wood, and this frequently means B2B. I do NOT like plastic or other odd things usually like snakeskin. I'm glad others like them and they do a good job I guess, I just don't like them so I don't comment. I also do not like the artsy-fartsy ones with all the fancy bumps and dips, just looks like the turner is practicing their skills but make a totally impractical object, just my opinion so I don't comment.
 
Although I do post quite a bit, you will notice that I very rarely comment on anyone's post in SOYP. I do look at quite a few but, in most cases I could only echo what has already been said. I very rarely post pictures of my pens because first, there is not enough time in my day to take the pict, manipulate it in Photoshop and download it to the forum. About the only time I will post a pict is when, in my mind the pen is something different that I have done, and then I will welcome any and all comment, good or bad.
Second, my camera is a cheap 3meg one that requires a lot of manipulation to get a good picture. So until the time as I can afford a good camera, you will not see very many of my pens posted.
 
I like the SOYP forum more for seeing different types of materials. Even if I dont personally like the shape/design of the pen I dont usually post a negative comment to it. If I really like it then I post a nice job. As for B2B that does not bother me. I am also not bothered by someone posting a comment on my work. Honestly, I am my worst critique.
 
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