Mini Review Sawstop 1.75 HP cabinet table saw

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NGLJ

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For the longest time I wanted a Sawstop and thanks to my good wife's generosity I got one about 18 months ago. Mind you when you can get 30% off it is hard to say no! To no surprise it is an amazing saw, much better than anything that I had ever owned. My wife's motive was that I might continue to keep all of my digits, which of course I subscribe to. Indeed the safety system does work including when you accidentally contact something metallic (rats!). Oh well, off to the store for another cartridge. However, the first time that I foolishly (impatience is not good in woodworking) touched the blade the blade stopped but unlike all of the Sawstop videos the blade did not drop below the table thus taking a huge chunk out of the end of my left thumb. It took 4 weeks to heal and it still plagues me at times. So I scoured the manual and found the get out of jail clause "the safety system helps to prevent injury". It does not say prevents. After much discussion with Sawstop, who always supply a new cartridge when it "saves" a serious injury (not sure about their definition of serious), it became clear what had happened. The blade drops below the table using the angular momentum of the blade. It all makes sense BUT what happens if the blade is not running at full speed? Below a certain speed it will not drop down. I had stopped the saw and it was slowing down when I reached for a cut off piece (yes, I no silly f$^&) - hard lesson learned and never to be repeated! So you have been warned. The Sawstop is a great saw. I have never had to make any adjustments since I got it. It just keeps on cutting clean and straight!

When in the local stores that sell Sawstop I asked about the safety system and of course they trot out the Sawstop mantra and show me the videos. There was not a single store that knew about what happened to me. It is hardly surprising that Sawstop don't show a video where someone actually gets hurt. Ok not likely to lose a digit but what I got was way more than a small nick, which is what they will tell you.
 

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jrista

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Wow, that looks really nasty! At least you did not actually lose the digit! Thanks for the heads up though...man, it is sometimes all too easy to be stupid around cutting tools...

I did a really stupid thing myself not too long ago...maybe about 3 months back. I was having an issue with the belt in my Laguna Revo 1524, and it seemed like something was stuck in the belt. So, idiot that is me, I took a cut of some 3M white pad, and held it for a moment against the back of the belt, while the lathe was on at the lowest speed for that belt setting (~300rpm). I don't honestly know what I was thinking, I loved physics when in school and know this stuff, and should have known beforehand exactly what was going to happen. For some reason I thought I could hold the pad there while the belt scraped against it, which is of course not what happened. It instantly got yanked down, and...my index finger of my right hand went down with it. I reflexively snapped my hand away, but not before the tip of my index finger just barely got caught between the wheel and the belt.

At first I thought I'd miraculously gotten away scott free...as my entire hand could have been pulled in and completely mangled, ending my career as a software engineer and my new stint as a woodworker. It didn't take long before I realized I didn't quite get off scott free...the entire tip of my index finger turned purple within an hour, and was very painful for weeks. I did end up having to program with one hand on the keyboard for a while, or more like 1.5 hands. I am actually still dealing with it...the crushed part of my fingernail is still growing out, and my finger is still healing. Interestingly, I expected the entire nail to fall off...instead however, parts of it have fragmented off bit by bit, and a new surface is finally emerging. It is much thicker than it used to be though...and, I don't know if that will ever change... Feels odd, and there is still a small but deep ache in the tip of that finger at times.

Regardless, the healing process is a very long drawn out, ongoing one. That episode, as close as I got to probably losing my entire hand, taught me an entirely new level of respect for these machines. I'm careful on a whole new level now, and don't think I'll ever lose the respect I now have for these skin-shredding, bone-mangling machines. I suspect I'll never use a bandsaw or a table saw without some kind of handle to move the wood, so I can keep my hands far, far away from any blades. The fear of losing a digit (or worse!) is deeply ingrained now. (Maybe some of us just have to learn it all the hard way?) For a moment I truly wondered how I'd not just lost my entire hand, mangled beyond repair as it was yanked into, and around, and around and around, that darn pulley...
 

jttheclockman

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I do not follow sawstop threads on other woodworking sites because it is all basically ads. I do not like the practice that the original owners operated under. Now that Festool has taken over, I wonder if they made any changes in the design. Never heard about the speed thing and if this is the case this should be something written in the owners manual. Did you look for it? Being these are now found more and more on job sites due to lawsuits, it would be something that should be taught. But again never reach over a spinning blade. Always wait for tool to stop.
 

NGLJ

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Sawstop insist that it is in the owner's manual but it is not explicit, ie. it does not describe exactly what happened to me and I think it should. What is\t says is "helps to prevent serious injury". That may be true but their promotional material only shows a wiener getting a slight nick. I find it hard to believe that an active system could not be designed such that the blade always drops below the table instead of relying on the angular momentum of the blade. The cartridge is an active device used to stop the blade. Why not something to pull the blade below the table. The other thing that they say is that removing an activated cartridge and attached blade is easy. Well, some times it is relatively easy but I had to use a crow bar when it triggered with a dado blade. I thought that it would never come off. Of course in may cases it trashes the blade(s). Yes, the moral of the story is "don't trigger the cartridge". I noticed that there was a large stock of cartridges at a local woodworking store. When I asked why so many. The answer was "we need them to hand because cartridges are our biggest Sawstop seller!".
 

Curly

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I have what is now the ICS that I bought about 10 years ago or so. I triggered the safety system early on while the saw was winding down. It was coasting and almost at a stop when I touched the blade with the tape measure. I should have waited a second or two more but it looked like it was almost there and would be by the time I got to the blade. Nope just heard a little ting and the blade was gone. It stopped and was under the table. There were three teeth just barely buried in the aluminium block. I sent the blade back to Forrestt and they replaced the teeth and sharpened it just enough to even them all up again. So half the cost of a new blade when you factor in the postage to and from here and their work. That drove home the point that the brake is active until the blade is fully stopped, can't remember if that was in the manual then or not. So there is a tiny fraction of time where there might not be enough inertia to drive the blade below the table. I have always understood that I could end up with more than a hot dog nick under certain circumstances but any injury would be far far less that if there was no brake. I'm good with that.

I would almost bet you didn't have the guard on your saw and there might have been a justifiable reason to have it off, but with it on you probably wouldn't have gotten nipped.
 

jrista

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With the cartridges, I thought there was, not exactly and "explosive", but when the electric field is shorted I thought there was something that actually triggered and blasted the blade down. So that it wasn't purely just the momentum of the blade that yanks it down...

Is that not the case?
 

Curly

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With the cartridges, I thought there was, not exactly and "explosive", but when the electric field is shorted I thought there was something that actually triggered and blasted the blade down. So that it wasn't purely just the momentum of the blade that yanks it down...

Is that not the case?
When the system detects flesh or something with the same conductive properties, it sends current through a small cable that retains a heavy spring compressed in the cartridge. The wire, basically a fuse, melts and lets the spring go, which pushes the aluminium into the revolving blade, jamming it and the inertia drops the blade below the table by taking the whole carriage down.
 

jttheclockman

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I thought you could not use a dado blade with the system activated. I think you need to do some better homework on your saw. It is also recommended to not use coated plate blades. This could be a case of operator error. That blade stop system is not fool proof so always always practice safe methods as if it did not have this.
 

Curly

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John 8" dado sets can be used but you change the regular brake cartridge for a dado brake cartridge (wider aluminium block and made to fit the 8" blades). They don't recommend blades with the chip limiting teeth profile. I had the ones on a Freud set of dado blades ground off at the local saw sharpening place for a twenty I think. I don't have any coated blades so never gave them a thought. I would suspect because the teeth are not coated and therefore conductive the brake would in most cases work normally but why take a chance.

Pete
 

jttheclockman

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My point is Pete if you own one of those saws you better be up on the to do's and not to do's because that can get expensive. Not only do you lose the brake but also the blade. Bosch had a whole better mousetrap that they had to stop because of greed from Those sawstop people. Maybe now that Festool owns it Bosch maybe can once again introduce their version. No one will ever convince me that those guys were good people they were greedy. When they wanted all saws to incorporate their system I was so glad other denied them. Just like every tool in a shop there is safety that needs to be followed. Sleds are a huge safety thing to add to a tablesaw. I have seen accidents with routers that were pretty ugly. My brother had one.
 

penicillin

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(Sorry to be late to this thread, but I just found it.)

In the past, I owned a Bosch REAXX table saw with the blade retracting mechanism. I currently own a SawStop cabinet saw. I have given the SawStop "hot dog demo" multiple times, but never on my saw. For the record, I treat all table saws with the best safety procedures I know, regardless of the special blade triggering mechanisms they may or may not have. I treat those safety mechanisms (and the premium price you pay for them) as extra insurance to reduce risk of serious injury, nothing more. Allow me to point out that those safety mechanisms do nothing to protect you from kickback injuries.

I am truly sorry to hear about @NGLJ's injury. I hope that by now it is healing well, and whatever discomfort remains continues to fade.

I would like to see a more detailed description of how the accident happened in an effort to help us avoid it. I got the impression that the blade was slowing, you reached for the cutoff, and then the brake triggered, but the blade did not go down. Is that right?

Here are some questions that I wonder about:
The blade was slowing, but was it still turning pretty fast, or closer to the stopping point?
Where did your finger contact the blade?
Was the blade guard installed?

The blade must have stopped slower than usual. Do you have photos of the brake and blade?
 

penicillin

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P.S. OFF TOPIC, BUT RELATED:

For those who may be interested in the Bosch REAXX:

The Bosch REAXX is a jobsite table saw. It is very similar to the Bosch 4100. They are not exactly the same, but have very similar features and many parts are interchangeable. (The blade guards are the same. The fences are very similar, but not interchangeable - a mystery to me.)

The cartridge looks like two cylinders glued together. If you trigger one, an explosive charge inside causes a metal rod to thrust out about two inches. The rod drives the blade carrier and blade down below the surface of the table as it rotates on a hinge. It happens so fast - there is a bang and the blade is gone. The blade keeps spinning as it slows to a stop under the table. The blade and is not touched by anything and remains unharmed and ready to use again. One advantage of this system is that there are no issues with blade sizes or anti-kickback shoulders on blades. You can use 6 inch or 8 inch dados, 10 inch or 250 mm blades, etc. Dados wider than 1/2 inch require a special hat-shaped adapter instead of the regular arbor nut. The part is included with their zero clearance insert plate.

To reset the mechanism, you remove the cartridge and rotate it so that the second cylinder is in the holder. Each cartridge can be triggered twice. You raise the blade carrier and blade back to the operating position, where it snaps into place with a pin held by friction, and the saw is ready to use again. Because you get two triggers per $80 cartridge, you save money (and you don't need to repair or replace the blade). That makes little sense to me. If you are operating the saw correctly, you should never trigger the mechanism. That's true for SawStop, too. (Treat it as insurance, not a license to be careless.)

Bosch REAXX table saws were sold in the US for a short time before SawStop got an injunction that applies to importation into the US. They are still being sold in Canada and probably elsewhere in the world. Bosch still supports the REAXX saws that were bought here in the US with parts, repairs, etc. Their customer support has been excellent for me.

The original SawStop patent (patents?) expired in August 2021. I wonder whether that will open the market for other manufacturers to make their own table saws with similar safety mechanisms. I asked that question a couple years ago, and someone commented that SawStop has ways to extend and reinforce their original patents with follow-on patents that can maintain their lock on the market. I hope that competition appears, but I have seen no announcements or other hints ... yet.
 

jttheclockman

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Sawstop was bought out by Festool (corporation). My question will Festool make their own version of a full size cabinet tablesaw with that technology? I know they made sort of a job site version. Festool TKS 80 EBS Only sold in Europe now. Not liking the look of it and Bet it is expensive.

Those patents go well beyond 2024
 

Curly

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penicillin the Reaxx is , to the best of my knowledge not available in Canada anymore. Last ones I saw being sold were at Rona (owned by Lowes) about a year ago on sale for about $1,200Cad. The regular price at the time was $2,200Cad. A look at the Bosch site shows them but clicking on the "Buy It Now" button shows the 5 or 6 sellers listed as "Out of Stock". They were selling for a bit more than the SawStop contractor saw and I don't think they were selling well. Maybe they are revamping the design and they will be back. Anybodies guess.
 

penicillin

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penicillin the Reaxx is , to the best of my knowledge not available in Canada anymore. Last ones I saw being sold were at Rona (owned by Lowes) about a year ago on sale for about $1,200Cad. The regular price at the time was $2,200Cad. A look at the Bosch site shows them but clicking on the "Buy It Now" button shows the 5 or 6 sellers listed as "Out of Stock". They were selling for a bit more than the SawStop contractor saw and I don't think they were selling well. Maybe they are revamping the design and they will be back. Anybodies guess.
Thanks for the update.

My issue with the REAXX was that the triggering was too sensitive. Bosch agreed to take it back after it triggered three times in two days, which was the final straw. One time, the cut had barely started. Another time, the wood was on the front of the table, but had not touched the blade. The final time, the blade was spinning, ready for the next cut. I was a couple feet away, looking in the trash can to retrieve a workpiece that I had just thrown away instead of the offcut.

Hopefully Bosch will improve its sensors and come out with a new version. The basic design concept is a good one.
 

David350

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I own both a Sawstop PCS and the Bosch Reaxx. While I try to stay focused on proper saw safety, I like the idea of the extra layer of safety. I have never had a "flesh" activation with either saw, but I have had a few "other" activations. I was cutting some dados on the Sawstop in western red cedar when it activated. That cost me the dado specific cartridge and an expensive dado set. Technically I suppose I could get the damaged carbide teeth on he dado set replaced but I thought I read somewhere (maybe Sawstop info) not to do this as the blade has undergone severe stress with an activation.

I really like the system the Reaxx uses as you don't need a specific cartridge for a 10" bland and another for a 8" dado set, etc. and it doesn't harm your blade. IMHO Reaxx is a better system as an activation costs you much less and it is much easier to recover after an activation. With my Sawstop, it took about 30 minutes of prying to get the mangled dado set which was imbedded into the activation cartridge off of the arbor. I did have an activation on the Reaxx once and the best I can come up with is that it as from the near-field communication system it utilizes with an app on your phone to allow you to view saw diagnostics, activation history, etc. They do advise you to put your phone in airplane mode when using the saw...
 

penicillin

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@David350 makes good points about the Bosch design, and I agree.

I would like to add to my own statement for the record - My cellphone was in the house, far from the Bosch REAXX when it triggered on its own. I never used the Bosch app or had my cellphone near it.
 

NGLJ

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I am not familiar with Reaxx but I can certainly attest to the damage (cost and time) it takes to fix a triggering with SawStop. It has cost me a crosscut blade and a box joint set, which uses the dado cartridge. I have even had to use a crowbar to get the triggered cartridge and blade off. The only compensation you get is if the triggering saved serious injury because SawStop replace the cartridge for free.
 

jrista

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P.S. OFF TOPIC, BUT RELATED:

For those who may be interested in the Bosch REAXX:

The Bosch REAXX is a jobsite table saw. It is very similar to the Bosch 4100. They are not exactly the same, but have very similar features and many parts are interchangeable. (The blade guards are the same. The fences are very similar, but not interchangeable - a mystery to me.)

The cartridge looks like two cylinders glued together. If you trigger one, an explosive charge inside causes a metal rod to thrust out about two inches. The rod drives the blade carrier and blade down below the surface of the table as it rotates on a hinge. It happens so fast - there is a bang and the blade is gone. The blade keeps spinning as it slows to a stop under the table. The blade and is not touched by anything and remains unharmed and ready to use again. One advantage of this system is that there are no issues with blade sizes or anti-kickback shoulders on blades. You can use 6 inch or 8 inch dados, 10 inch or 250 mm blades, etc. Dados wider than 1/2 inch require a special hat-shaped adapter instead of the regular arbor nut. The part is included with their zero clearance insert plate.

To reset the mechanism, you remove the cartridge and rotate it so that the second cylinder is in the holder. Each cartridge can be triggered twice. You raise the blade carrier and blade back to the operating position, where it snaps into place with a pin held by friction, and the saw is ready to use again. Because you get two triggers per $80 cartridge, you save money (and you don't need to repair or replace the blade). That makes little sense to me. If you are operating the saw correctly, you should never trigger the mechanism. That's true for SawStop, too. (Treat it as insurance, not a license to be careless.)

Bosch REAXX table saws were sold in the US for a short time before SawStop got an injunction that applies to importation into the US. They are still being sold in Canada and probably elsewhere in the world. Bosch still supports the REAXX saws that were bought here in the US with parts, repairs, etc. Their customer support has been excellent for me.

The original SawStop patent (patents?) expired in August 2021. I wonder whether that will open the market for other manufacturers to make their own table saws with similar safety mechanisms. I asked that question a couple years ago, and someone commented that SawStop has ways to extend and reinforce their original patents with follow-on patents that can maintain their lock on the market. I hope that competition appears, but I have seen no announcements or other hints ... yet.
It is really a bummer that SawStop managed to stop their only competitor. Reading around, it sounds like the REAXX system is designed quite differently than the SawStop, and I haven't been able to find any explicit explanation of how Bosch infringed upon SawStop's patents. SawStop has fairly undeniable domination of the tablesaw marketplace because they are safer, and safer is good...but so is competition. It would be really good to have a competitor in the "safe" tablesaw space, because those saws are significantly higher priced than "unsafe" saws.

EDIT:

I got a kick out of this guy's post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Tools/comments/p6bhhb/_/h9folkz
Especially this:

To answer your third question: ....we don't know, but all bets are off after 2024. The whole thing is a hot mess, and it's up to the other companies' lawyers to sort it out and give the green light for rolling out products. For what's actually been invented, the number of SawStop patents is absurd... but if an inventor wants to spend all that money on fees to file continuations for every conceivable iteration of the product, that's his right. I suspect what he was doing (with all the continuations) was a combination of simply going for quantity ("hey, investors, look at how many patents we have!") and trying to create uncertainty as to when a competitor is "safe" to release a similar product (1. file that many continuations and some are bound to have nice, long, adjustments; 2. lawyers are expensive, and it takes time to sort through and do an infringement analysis on over 9000 nearly-but-not-quite identical patents).

Sounds like SawStop has been trying their best to stack on as many patents as possible and maximize confusion as much as possible to make it as hard as possible for any legitimate competitor to break into the market, and also to make it as confusing as possible to know just when their patents really expire, restricting how soon competitors can pile in and expand this safety technology to every table saw in existence.
 
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Curly

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It is really a bummer that SawStop managed to stop their only competitor. Reading around, it sounds like the REAXX system is designed quite differently than the SawStop, and I haven't been able to find any explicit explanation of how Bosch infringed upon SawStop's patents. SawStop has fairly undeniable domination of the tablesaw marketplace because they are safer, and safer is good...but so is competition. It would be really good to have a competitor in the "safe" tablesaw space, because those saws are significantly higher priced than "unsafe" saws.
I am always amazed at how many people come down on SawStop for defending their patents in court and win, yet get bent when Asian companies blatantly make copies of patented products and copyrighted computer programs believe it is wrong and they should be stopped. Patents are there to protect the inventors ideas until they can make their money. Nobody gripes about 3M, GM, Boeing or any other corporation from taking out and defending patents so why is there a difference in this case? Bosch used the same way of detecting your flesh as SawStop did and were stopped. That's the way it is supposed to work.

When the blade brake inventor went around to all the companies making table saws to use his invention he was shown the door. They didn't want to pay up and change plus thought their other/older models without them would make their companies liable. He went and setup his own company and got the saws made and despite the cost have been selling well. Why in the world would he allow others to encroach on his patents? People may hate him for some of the tactics he tried to get the safety system made into law but that doesn't mean others can violate his patents.

The only reason Bosch got involve with blade brakes was because of a lawsuit they lost when a worker using one of their portable saws lost a bunch of fingers. If another lawsuit came up with someone hurt with an older saw they would be able to say the victim should have been using their safer model. There was no altruistic motivation by Bosch to protect people, only covering of their corporate butts. They still are seen by many as a hero and that baffles me.
 

jrista

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I am always amazed at how many people come down on SawStop for defending their patents in court and win, yet get bent when Asian companies blatantly make copies of patented products and copyrighted computer programs believe it is wrong and they should be stopped. Patents are there to protect the inventors ideas until they can make their money. Nobody gripes about 3M, GM, Boeing or any other corporation from taking out and defending patents so why is there a difference in this case? Bosch used the same way of detecting your flesh as SawStop did and were stopped. That's the way it is supposed to work.

When the blade brake inventor went around to all the companies making table saws to use his invention he was shown the door. They didn't want to pay up and change plus thought their other/older models without them would make their companies liable. He went and setup his own company and got the saws made and despite the cost have been selling well. Why in the world would he allow others to encroach on his patents? People may hate him for some of the tactics he tried to get the safety system made into law but that doesn't mean others can violate his patents.

The only reason Bosch got involve with blade brakes was because of a lawsuit they lost when a worker using one of their portable saws lost a bunch of fingers. If another lawsuit came up with someone hurt with an older saw they would be able to say the victim should have been using their safer model. There was no altruistic motivation by Bosch to protect people, only covering of their corporate butts. They still are seen by many as a hero and that baffles me.
First off, regarding legitimate patent theft. It is wrong, I whole heartedly agree. I don't buy much from China, and I'm wary when I do. Blatant patent theft is wrong, always has been, always will be. We shouldn't be conflating direct and blatant patent theft, with what happened with Bosch and SawStop though, which IMO was consequential and largely caused by overly broad patents.

If you read more, it sounds like SawStop likely has overly broad patents that shouldn't have been granted as they were, which is a real problem, and IMO part of the reason they have been able to keep any saw safety competition off the market. In more reading, it sounds like it was the "electrical detection of conductive flesh" that was the only actual patent violated...but that is, IMO, an extremely broad "patent". A patent is supposed to be about a specific implementation of an invention, not a broad description of a concept. I don't know exactly where SawStop falls on the spectrum of overly broad to very specific, but I'm still reading.

SawStop won, because the patents were granted and were still in effect (they may no longer be, though...sounds like the key core patents expired August 2021. More will be expiring through 2024, so we probably won't see this technology in any other saw until after that, but it sounds like most of the remaining patents really wouldn't prevent any ambitious company from successfully bringing a similar product to market. See the previously linked reddit thread for more). According to another article I read (i'll try to find the link), most of the patents SawStop claimed were violated were not. There were only two (although, one of them was one of those subsequent refining filings if I understand it right) about the flesh detection that stood. It was that single concept that kept a competitor off the market. That, IMO, is sad. We need competition in our markets to spur continued innovation...which is why there needs to be a certain amount of specificity to patents. An exact copy or direct theft of intellectual property is wrong...legitimate competition with conceptually similar, but specifically different implementations is healthy.

The kind of market domination SawStop has, in my honest opinion, is not healthy. I'm all for inventors receiving patents and being able to benefit from them, but there are (and should be) limits on the breadth of a patent. These days our patent laws have improved things in this area a bit, so it is harder to be granted a broad patent filing that would squeeze out too much legitimate competition... Sounds like SawStop squeaked some in 20 years ago, though, and IMO the state of the market for these larger table saws largely reflects that.

Also, keep in mind, there are a plethora of patent trolls out there these days as well. I'm not saying SawStop is a patent troll (although I did read about his attempts to get the laws passed, which IMO is rather sleazy and would have been terrible for a free market...people want safety, and that is enough of a driver on its own to support the technology and sales of saws with it, clearly), but patent trolling is another huge problem. Having a patent isn't just some cut and dry, simple thing that always appropriately and properly benefits the inventor. Patent law has been abused for decades, and has cost us a lot of innovation. The kind of patents SawStop has, and the plethora they have over a single invention, are the kind of patents that can allow patent trolling, and certainly can confuse things enough to stifle legitimate competition over fear of costly litigation. Patent law is a monstrous mess, especially in this country, and many companies have played the game extremely well to profit, unduly or excessively in some cases, off of patents.

Regarding the comments about Bosch's reasoning. I don't think that's fair. We honestly cannot know their reasoning. We can speculate, but I think its unfair to say they did it just to CTA. I think most people can see the effect SawStops patents have had on innovation of safety technology in this market, and I can see how they could look at ANY competitor trying to enter the market like Bosch did, regardless of their reasonings (which we again cannot know), as a hero... There are probably ways to implement other saw safety break mechanisms. Why haven't we seen any? I'd wager good money its largely fear of litigation from SawStop, because even if they have a legitimately unique system, if SawStop IS sitting on broad patents, the inevitable result would be litigation. What a horrible environment to try and innovate in, right?
 

MRDucks2

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The guy's efforts to get legislation passed requiring his braking device to be installed on all saws is what prevented me from ever considering a Saw Stop. It is decent technology and I fully support those who chose it and the seeming quality saws, but the back room politics to try and create a monopoly tainted my perception of the company behind the product at that time.
 

jttheclockman

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Pete I will not get into this again with you because we have been down this road before here. We get you have the saw and love it. We are happy for all others that have the saw and hope you never trip the device because of something you did foolishly.

Mike just summed up what I told you back then. It was their approach to capitalize all saws on the market and force them to adapt HIS system. They refused to play his political games and do not blame them. As mentioned his patents are so fuzzy that a patent lawyer could not figure out. The idea is a good one but as with anything ever built on this earth there can be improvements and Bosch was on the right tract hands down. Their system if it can be allowed to be harnessed is a much less expensive one to both users and to manufacturers. You can not argue that and they knew it too. They were threatened. Now that Parent company of Festool has the rights we do not know how well they will protect things. They have already made a new tablesaw under their name with the technology. Not sure if they copied to the letter of the law either so maybe they violated their own patents. It is patent on the idea and not sure that is even able to carry a patent , about the blade dropping below the table on contact. This is where things go grey. That is what they fought Bosch on. They could not fight them on a braking system because Bosch does not use one. They could not fight them on the design on how they drop blade because totally different but there are fragments of ideas mixed in the 2.

You say that Bosch only made their brake system because of a lawsuit. All tablesaw companies have been sued because of lost of limbs. . Bosch at least took steps to try to make safer as well as other tablesaw companies could have tried but again the Patents prevent them. Someday this will be worked out and maybe we will see some sort of technology on all tools. I know Festool is working on their Kapex cut off saw as well as routers. Until then we all just need to be careful in the shop and learn the tools you work with. Any of them can and will hurt you if you are not paying attention and knowing how they perform.
 

penicillin

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Repeating for the record: I own a SawStop table saw and used to own a Bosch REAXX table saw.

I agree with Curly regarding ownership of the SawStop patents. The patents are theirs to do with as they wish, including withholding them from others. That is the law today. At the same time, I have a right to be angry with SawStop for failing to reach agreement with other table saw manufacturers to license their technology.

I am not privy to any of the details - how much it cost SawStop to develop the technology or its objective value, what SawStop wanted in return for licenses, how much the manufacturers were willing to pay for the licenses, other factors (liability?), other details, etc. We do not know what transpired between SawStop and the other table saw manufacturers. We don't know what SawStop wanted, nor what the other manufacturers needed to make a successful deal. We can only speculate about the actions or the motives of the individuals involved. It is sad that many ordinary woodworkers sustained preventable, life-changing injuries as the price of SawStop's and the manufacturers' inability to make a deal happen.

Whatever happened between SawStop and the other manufacturers doesn't matter. What matters is that the years passed, and many woodworkers were seriously injured. As those injuries continued all over, SawStop actively engaged in lobbying the government to coerce their competitors into licensing the technology under conditions their competitors would not agree to before, or else force their competitors to abandon the table saw market in the USA. (SawStop may assert that they were trying to prevent future injuries through their lobbying, but that argument is specious, in my opinion.)

Actions speak louder than words. Based on what we have all seen regarding the lack of licensing and their government lobbying activities, I call shame on Steve Gass and SawStop. Their actions may be legal, but that does not necessarily make them moral.
 

Curly

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Now that the conglomerate that includes Festool owns SawStop they are in control of the patents and it remains to be seen if they will continue with business as usual or offer them to the competition not in the group in some fashion.
 

jrista

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Now that the conglomerate that includes Festool owns SawStop they are in control of the patents and it remains to be seen if they will continue with business as usual or offer them to the competition not in the group in some fashion.
There aren't really any patents they can truly leverage anymore. The original core patents expired, starting in Feb 2020, and again in Aug 2021. The remainder are going to expire mostly in 2022 and a few more through 2024. There isn't a lot left to enforce...and IMO, thankfully so.

Its time saw safety technology was allowed to propagate through the industry so that every saw can be safe. Not necessarily SawStop's specific approach either...it has its flaws. I'll just be glad when the entire industry can innovate without fear of litigation and come up with ideas to protect people from losing fingers regardless of brand.
 

NGLJ

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Although I am a SawStop owner I would like to see a safety system on all saws that protects the user from serious injury regardless of which technology(s) are used. I was prepared to pay the entry price to protect myself now. It is easy to forget that SawStop saws are excellent saws in their own right. How much of a premium is being paid for the safety system is hard to know but I could imagine that a lot of money must have been spent in development. I can see why people might be upset by some of the SawStop commercial practices but find me an industry where this is not the case! If you forget about the SawStop safety system and compare it to other premium table saws you are still going to be paying a lot of money for saws of comparable quality. As a Canadian I find that the US market distorts things because not all premium saws are available here, and those that are are often comparable in price to SawStop.
 
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Had a chuckle reading this all...

Moral of the story is: Don't touch machinery that is moving. Flesh is weak. Doesn't take THAT much speed to have enough energy to rip through it. ;) Expecting a safety device to function after turning off the saw is... optimistic? Also, you would have had to remove the blade guard or just been downright careless if it was on so... I don't really see how you can make a dig at SawStop.

As for the rest of the posts... Buy... don't buy... whatever your reasons. As a patent holder myself I understand protecting your original idea. Pretty good business to try and get your product mandated I suppose but not practical. :) Not the way I'd do it but... businesses are in business to make money. They COULD have cut corners on the quality of the saw and just had the braking mechanism... they didn't. It is one of the most well thought out tools I have in the shop. So if they really just wanted to make as much money as possible they'd do what a bunch of other saw companies do and cheap out on the things that count.
 

jttheclockman

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And now I am chuckling because another opinion has been heard from. You can not tell someone one way or other they are wrong or right. Just an opinion.
 

jrista

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Pretty good business to try and get your product mandated I suppose but not practical. :)
Only want to comment on this. IMO, its incredibly anti-American to try and force every business to use your product and thus force everyone in the market to buy it. It is fundamentally anti-competitive, against everything beneficial about a competitive free market, and was an unbelievably snide and selfish move on the part of the guy who created the SawStop mechanism.

Yes, it is the purpose of businesses to make money. Make it legitimately. IMO, its a massive turnoff when any inventor or business man abuses any legal system to force their product down people's throats, and is fundamentally anti-American in every way. If you come up with a brilliant idea that is truly good, unique, and solves a problem in a better way than any competitor, then yes, patent the idea, and let the market naturally send money your way. You shouldn't have to use an insidious abuse of law (i.e. an anti-competitive law that requires other manufacturers to use your product in their products??) to force your product on everyone...if its a truly good idea and truly solves a problem in an ingenious way, everyone (or enough people) will want it regardless, and that's all you should need.

🪙🪙
 
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Jon: I wasn't being terribly serious... Almost guaranteed that if they had been successful they'd have lost control of the patent in the process in order to satisfy anti-trust type scenarios. Thus the "not practical" part
 

jrista

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Jon: I wasn't being terribly serious... Almost guaranteed that if they had been successful they'd have lost control of the patent in the process in order to satisfy anti-trust type scenarios. Thus the "not practical" part
I'm sure he would have lost it...but it goes much deeper than that. Once you get politics, bureaucracies, and law involved, the freedom to innovate starts to go down the drain. It likely would have stifled that aspect of the industry forever, rather than just 20 years. And, he likely would have still made a huge profit, even without the patents. He did manage to stifle it for 20 years though, because of his ability to acquire overly-broad patents that would never have been granted if he filed today.

🤷‍♂️
 
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