Sanding /finishing wood blanks.... some thoughts

[redfishsc]

Being trained as a professional wood finisher and sprayed thousands of gallons of lacquers, catalyzed varnishes, and two-part urethanes, I thought I might chime in on some of my pen finishing theory.


QUESTION: Have you ever had a wood pen that started discoloring around the end of the tubes after some use, where the wood meets the kit parts? Part of the problem may be in how finely you are sanding.


One issue I hear a lot is that you should micromesh your wood before applying a film finish like lacquer or enduro. I disagree (mind you, this isn't a hill I'm willing to die on, lol).


There is one issue, however, that penturners don't consider, but cabient makers/finishers like myself are well aware of: your wood HAS to have a surface that the finish can properly adhere to. Wood polished to an "optically smooth" surface has very little for a finish to grip to, especially fine-grain woods like Olivewood, osage, or rosewoods.


I do not personally EVER micromesh wood if I am applying a CA, lacquer, enduro, or other hard film finish. I sand up to around 600, but I sand very lightly and always finish up sanding with the grain. THEN I start sealing the blank up with whatever hard film finish I am using.

CA, being an actual glue, will probably adhere better to wood polished with micromesh. Lacquer and enduro, however, will NOT penetrate deep enough into the surface fibers of micromeshed wood to hold a tenacious grip. Will look great for a while but you stand a chance of it flaking off. Trust me on this; industrial cabinetry finish manufacturers often actually refuse to warranty any of their finish applied to wood that was sanded to more than 220 grit.

The penturner will NOT see a problem with micromeshing the wood before using a film finish unless he is the one that uses it. Given some time the finish may actually lift a tad, especially at the ends of the blank.

Wood will wick up humidity, moisture, hand crud, sweat, the coffee you spilled on your pen and notebook... etc. A solid finish will prevent this. However, the ends of the barrels are not "finished", and if the wood was highly polished (ie, sanded much more than 800 grit or so) the finish doesn't have a good "velcro" surface to hold onto, and moisture will wick in the wood and begin lifting the finish and discoloring the wood.


My finishing process basically eliminates this problem. I sand all my blanks to 600 (gently) and seal them with 2-3 coats of CA/BLO, sanding each coat back fairly strong with 400 and 600 grit (wet sanding with mineral spirits). The final ca sealer coat must be sanded with some 600 grit for the spray finish to adhere to.

I then spray my pens with a catalyzed varnish (lacquer will do just fine). I put the pens on a small dowel rod--- I use cheap tape to wrap around the dowel to make it fat enough to hold each blank in place. I spray lightly (airbrush) each blank while rotating the dowel. I make sure the very ends of the tubes get some finish on them to seal the ends of the wood.

Usually three or four light coats do good. My varnish will harden in 30 minutes and is ready to buff with micromesh (wet sand with water)to a high gloss in 24 hours. If you use lacquer, give it a week before doing that.

Here is the first closed-end pen I ever did (not the nicest form and shape), and was finished with the above. You can see that the finish is glassy-glossy. The white stuff around the clip ring is just wax that I failed to buff out properly. Gimme a break, I was a real neophyte when I made this pen, lol, but I knew how to finish!

 

[drayman]

redfish, many thanks for the post,i learned something there, oh and i love your pen. regrds colin.[]

 

[IPD_Mrs]

Everything makes sense up to the point of, your next finish can only be as good as the finish below it. If you have fine lines below from sanding to 600 grit, they will appear in the finish. If you do several coats of CA for a deep reflective finish then it might work as a magnifyer to the lines.

I have had problems with the finish seperating at the barrel but that was generally caused by popping the blank off of the bushing. I have worked around this by cutting the finish at the bushing with an exacto knife before I MM the finish.

I would love to see more on this subject. Might even turn a couple of pens to do sample finishes on.

Mike & Linda

 

[txbatons]

Thanks for taking the time to post this. I like to learn from other people's mistakes and advise, so I'm going to give this a try because I've often wondered about the raw ends of the tubes after I've spent so much time on the blanks.

 

[mick]

As most of us are self taught we come to some of the same conclusions, just at different times. Some of the things Redfish has pointed out I've figured out in the process of looking for a finish that works for me. He mentions the finish lifting from pens that are sanded through a very fine grit.....had it happen, suspected that was the problem, specially with oily woods. Something I've been doing lately to help the problem is to remove the blanks from the mandrel after my use of thin CA as a sanding sealer and touching the ends to a small "puddle" of thin CA and sealing the ends. After it dries , it's back on the mandrel and continue with my finishing process. It's add just a couple of minutes to my finish time but I'm thinking it's worth it. One reason I started doing this other than the raised finish was because I noticed my daily carry, a Star and Stripes pen was starting to get dark discoloration at the ends. I work in a hot environment and sweat a lot so I knew what was causing it. I just hope pens I've sold in the past don't start doing this
<b>Red thanks for your post, it's confirmed several things I've thought. Things like this are what makes this forum great</b>!

 

[Fred]

Thanks for the posting of your methods, Red. I have one question... If while milling the blanks ends after the tubes are in glued in place and prior to turning them, do you think that sealing the finished/milled ends with CA would be enough to stop/slow down any absorption of 'stuff' at the ends themselves?

 

[leehljp]

I have been taught that sanding too fine will keep finish from sticking also. But as an absolute, that is false. There are several variables that make a finish have difficulty in sticking to finely surfaced woods.
Very oily woods;
viscosity of paint/finish too thick;
humidity or temperature at time of application.
density of wood.
other things such as additives, silicones, oils, waxes, etc - on or impregnated in the wood.

Sanding to a very fine surface (such as 1000/1500) is a part of the equation, but it does not have to be in many cases if the variables are taken into account. There are ways to overcome the problems. Many fine furniture makers use scrapers to surface the wood before applying a finish (usually waxes and oils but often polys, lacquers and shellacs) and the scrapers put a far finer surface on the wood than most sandpapers could dream of. Fine and expensive lacquerware in Japan are applied over very fine surfaced woods. It is really dependent on the experience in conjunction with the wood and finish.

As to the ends of the pen, I usually apply a couple of coats of thin CA and let it soak into the ends to prevent it from doing just as you mentioned. Helps a lot when it does soak in. But different people will get different results on the same woods. I think it boils down to experience at this point.

 

[mdburn_em]

redfishsc, thanks for the thoughts. I've been having similar ideas, although I don't have any experience finishing. Well, I've finished gymnasium floors, so that's finishing on a grotesque level.

Here is the question that has been bugging me even more. If we sand down to the level of the bushings (which are at the same diameter as our hardware) and then we add multiple coats of (name your flavor) finish, aren't we inherently increasing the diameter of our blanks so they will be proud of the bushings and ultimately our hardware? Then we diligently proceed to sand most of that finish away so we are once again flush. Maybe that's why so many people have problems with CA. They sand most or all of it away.

If this question/thought has any validity, could it possibly be factoring into the discoloration at the ends of the blanks you mention?

 

[BernieW]

Redfish thanks for the post. I do like you do and found out the hard way that enduro or even lacquer has a hard time sticking to something that was micromesh. I sand to 600 and with each grit stop the lathe to sand with the grain as I turn the lathe by hand. Have not had a problem since.

 

[maxwell_smart007]

I haven't actually turned my first pen yet - just waiting for the bushings for the sierra kit (forgot to order them with the kits!) []

But I was wondering, as I read some other posts, why you'd sand it so smooth, and THEN apply a finish...seemed counter intuitive, considering that I've had a finish not adhere well on the first table I ever made, because I used automotive sandpaper to make it baby-butt smooth first...

Good to know that penturning isn't like quantum physics - still follows the rules of the rest of woodworking..

(although putting glue deliberately onto the wood where it can be seen is something I'm still struggling with! []

 

[thewishman]

Thanks, Redfish![]

I sand to 400 and then finish with plexi, working mostly with stabilized woods. Have started making pens from flooring (not stabilized) and worried about the ends. Wet sanding with MM after applying the finish forced some water between the bushings and wood and caused swelling at those joints. Dry sanding doesn't work as well as wet sanding. I will seal those ends now and feel more comfotable with customers using (and abusing) them.

Chris

 

[wdcav1952]

Fred and Lee,

I agree with your joint point. I seal the ends of all pens, whatever the material, with thin CA. It will wick into any voids and improve the final result. I then lightly use a pen mill by hand and finish with a light touch by hand to sandpaper on a flat surface.

 

[redfishsc]

Originally posted by Fred_erick
<br />Thanks for the posting of your methods, Red. I have one question... If while milling the blanks ends after the tubes are in glued in place and prior to turning them, do you think that sealing the finished/milled ends with CA would be enough to stop/slow down any absorption of 'stuff' at the ends themselves?

I have done this with punky woods, a trick I learned from Russ' site. Helps keep end-mill tearout to a minimum.
Since 99.9% of my pens get sprayed anyhow, I don't personally depend on just CA to seal it up since spraying the ends "just happens" when spraying the blanks, but I also think it would be sufficient to seal up the ends if you are only using a CA finish.

 

[cdcarter]

OK, I'm confused. If you put ca/blo on top of the 12k mm surface, what difference does it matter how polished the bare wood was, since you're not spraying the lacquer directly on it.

 

[redfishsc]

Originally posted by MLKWoodWorking
<br />Everything makes sense up to the point of, your next finish can only be as good as the finish below it. If you have fine lines below from sanding to 600 grit, they will appear in the finish. If you do several coats of CA for a deep reflective finish then it might work as a magnifyer to the lines.

This isn't my experience with 400 and 600 grit on pens (though 400 can telegraph if you sand like a gorilla). So long as you sand gently, and then stop the lathe and gently wipe it with the grain with the 600, then a couple of CA sealer coats followed by a nice coat or two of lacquer should result in a flawless finish *provided* that you cut back all the coats you put on fairly well with 600 grit. Again, sand the CA sealer coats with the grain.


Also keep in mind that cabinet makers routinely---- literally every day--- produce flawless finishes in two coats of the conversion varnish I use (as well as precatalyzed lacquers) and they only sand to 150 or 180, usually. They sand the wood to 150/180, spray a coat, then sand the cured varnish/lacquer with 220 or 320 grit (either will work) and then spray another topcoat. Their spray coats are only a tad thicker than what we put on our pens, and they get away with sanding the first coat with 220!

I started finishing my pens with precat lacquer and conversion varnish two years ago (mostly as an experiment and for gifts). Pens I made two years ago still look good (other than the cruddy 24K plating wearing off...[xx(]). I had never even heard of Micromesh until a year or so into pen making, nor had I heard of CA finish. I simply implemented what I knew in cabinet finishing and applied it to pen finishing.

I'm glad my thoughts were of some help. If I could find a penturner in the Raleigh area that would be willing to help me take pics for a tutorial, I would like to post one sometime or other.

 

[redfishsc]

Originally posted by mdburn_em
<br />redfishsc, thanks for the thoughts. I've been having similar ideas, although I don't have any experience finishing. Well, I've finished gymnasium floors, so that's finishing on a grotesque level.

Here is the question that has been bugging me even more. If we sand down to the level of the bushings (which are at the same diameter as our hardware) and then we add multiple coats of (name your flavor) finish, aren't we inherently increasing the diameter of our blanks so they will be proud of the bushings and ultimately our hardware? Then we diligently proceed to sand most of that finish away so we are once again flush. Maybe that's why so many people have problems with CA. They sand most or all of it away.

If this question/thought has any validity, could it possibly be factoring into the discoloration at the ends of the blanks you mention?

My usual tactic is to use some 1500 grit sandpaper (or 3200 micromesh) to "round over" the edges of any thick finish. This is done gently and carefully, and the very minute amount of "thickness" to the finish is barely noticeable. Very few of my pens have wood-to-metal joints that are dead-nuts flush and perfect, I almost always have my pens finish out just a cat-hair heavier than the part it is mating with, and I lightly round over the wood edge so it is smooth on the finger. You would be suprized how may pens have come out "perfect" versus "almost right" when doing this. It takes practice and some goofs.

 

[redfishsc]

Originally posted by cdcarter
<br />OK, I'm confused. If you put ca/blo on top of the 12k mm surface, what difference does it matter how polished the bare wood was, since you're not spraying the lacquer directly on it.

The issue is whether or not the CA will stick, long term, to wood (especially oily or super-dense woods). Since CA is a glue by intent, it will bond better than lacquer or enduro, but I still don't risk and I stop sanding at a gentle 600 following the grain. The final CA sealer is then sanded gently with 600 (after being cut back to a nice, flat surface) and sprayed with whatever spray finish is desired.

 

[DCBluesman]

I won't dispute your experience or your results, but it is counter-intuitive to say that your surfact is too well prepared to finish. I've been using micromesh for a couple of years and produce a pretty smooth finish, enough so that some woodworkers would swear that my pens are finished before I put anything on them. I've used water-borner and solvent borne lacquers, CA and other finishes (probably at least 75) and have never had a finish separate from the wood. Even when I run a blank through MM12000, if I pull out my 20X magnifier, I can see scratch patterns that a finish can adhere to. Of course, your pre-cat varnish is intriguing and I may well try it, but not because a regular finish doesn't work.

 

[redfishsc]

Originally posted by DCBluesman
<br />I won't dispute your experience or your results, but it is counter-intuitive to say that your surfact is too well prepared to finish. I've been using micromesh for a couple of years and produce a pretty smooth finish, enough so that some woodworkers would swear that my pens are finished before I put anything on them. I've used water-borner and solvent borne lacquers, CA and other finishes (probably at least 75) and have never had a finish separate from the wood. Even when I run a blank through MM12000, if I pull out my 20X magnifier, I can see scratch patterns that a finish can adhere to. Of course, your pre-cat varnish is intriguing and I may well try it, but not because a regular finish doesn't work.

Thanks for the experience input, Lou-- coming from a veteran I take your word on it.

As a side note, I have made pens that I finished with a MM'ed surface and then CA'd, and pens that I sanded to a gentle 600 and CA's. I personally could not tell a difference other than the several minutes of time I didn't spend (and several dollars I didn't spend) on micromesh. Even after spraying, I generally only have to micromesh only briefly to bring out the nicest gloss, and I would suspect that I could simply use a tripoli and white diamond buff to get the same results with conversion varnish cured out for a day or two. I just got a good buffing setup, I may try that soon.

 

[Firefyter-emt]

Just to add a note, now that I am turning between centers, my CA is applied without bushings. After the first three coats this will leave a fair coating on the ends. I use my sander mill bu hand to knock that flat, yet not more than that. This leaves me with a CA coat on the ends of the tube that is razor flat. I do this before putting the bushings back on the blank and sanding between centers.

I have pondered this many times with the Lacquer finish myself..

 

[rherrell]

I'm with redfish on this one.Just to find out,about 3 months ago I sanded 2 wooden pens. One to 600 and one MM12,000. Sprayed each with lacquer exactly the same. Waited a week and finished exactly the same. For the life of me,with the naked eye, I can't tell the difference.Maybe if you had a magnifying glass you could but WHO CARES.Now all I use MM for is sanding the lacquer and I save a whole lot of time and effort.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Right now, I have an experiment in the shop with some of the techniques previously described. So far it is a failure. Previously, I always sanded through all the grades of Micro Mesh then spray lacquered with desirable results. The experiment is holly sanded to 220 then lacquer dipped. After the first coat set for a week (I went out of town) it felt rough as a cob. Later I dipped a second coat and set over night. It too, feels as rough as a cob. Intuitively, I always believed that the finish coat could be no better then the underlying wood surface. Thus far, that instinct seems to be born out as true. I might have to sand these back to the wood and start over. But, I gotta disagree with those who say a finish will cover sins in the wood.