Rule Change

Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad

mbroberg

IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
5,861
Location
Columbus, OH
I have decided to eliminate the requirement that profiles contain first and last name, and location of residence in contests that are not dependent on participants to do anything to further the contest. For example, in activities such as PITH, blank exchanges, Cast-away box, SegBox, if a participant doesn't follow through the activity comes to a screeching halt, or a member who did do what is expected gets short changed.

In contests where the participants only need to forward an entry, there is really no reason to require the profile information. Anyone who submits a pen to one of the pen contests isn't expected to do anything else. Someone who submitted an article to the library or a photo of a pen that happens to end up on the front page isn't expected to do anything else. No one can be effected by any "non-performance" because no further performance is expected.

I will be amending the Activity Rules before the BASH begins.

Thanks, Mike
 
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad

ed4copies

Local Chapter Manager
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Messages
24,061
Location
Racine, WI, USA.
Nor are any of the participants in the trivia required to do anything.

In fact, I can't think of ONE contest where the participants need to "follow through" for the successful completion of the contest.

(The contest CHAIRMEN need a LOT of follow through---but the participants need not do a thing!!)
 

mbroberg

IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
5,861
Location
Columbus, OH
Nor are any of the participants in the trivia required to do anything.

In fact, I can't think of ONE contest where the participants need to "follow through" for the successful completion of the contest.

(The contest CHAIRMEN need a LOT of follow through---but the participants need not do a thing!!)

Correct. I can't think of one BASH contest that requires follow-through on the part of the participant beyond the initial submission.

I'd be willing to bet that winners of the BASH contests will have no reservations about supplying the information needed to have their prizes shipped.
 

ed4copies

Local Chapter Manager
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Messages
24,061
Location
Racine, WI, USA.
Nor are any of the participants in the trivia required to do anything.

In fact, I can't think of ONE contest where the participants need to "follow through" for the successful completion of the contest.

(The contest CHAIRMEN need a LOT of follow through---but the participants need not do a thing!!)

Correct. I can't think of one BASH contest that requires follow-through on the part of the participant beyond the initial submission.

I'd be willing to bet that winners of the BASH contests will have no reservations about supplying the information needed to have their prizes shipped.


This means we have done a complete 180 on the bash. Will the contest "enterers" still be asked to fill out the "entry form" that was used last year? If so, why? If not--its another 180.

I'm "good with" the new policy!!! Just want to be sure I understand it, as last year we were very firm in trivia---wanna play, gotta tell us who you are---This year "anonymous" can play---if he wins, I will ask for info. so we can ship prizes.

Do I understand correctly??
 

mbroberg

IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
5,861
Location
Columbus, OH
Doesn't sound like you do, but close enough. :) Call if you want to discuss further.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Forum Runner
 

maxwell_smart007

Lead Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
6,568
Location
middle of nowhere in the great, white North
I'm not sure I understand the rationale of the rule change, personally.

A few concerns:

This will make it much harder on the prize delivery and contest teams - and since they're all volunteers, why not make it easier rather than harder?

The allowance of anonymous entries would permit someone to send four different entries from different accounts, unless someone's scrutinizing their IP addresses closely - and we don't do that, I don't think.

Does this mean that the 'entry forms' that Curtis spent time making is all for nought? Do people just email in their pictures rather than use the forms now?

Who are we trying to accomodate - was this a huge issue last year? Did we have less entries because of it?

This was debated rather deeply last year - I don't think i understand the rationale behind why we'd reverse it this year.
 

mbroberg

IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
5,861
Location
Columbus, OH
I'll answer later tonight when I'm at a real keyboard. Or you can call 614~774~7676

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Forum Runner
 

jeff

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 5, 2003
Messages
8,486
Location
Westlake, OH, USA.
First, I concurred with Mike that this changed seemed OK.

I am not understanding what the connection is between the entry form and the profile info. I thought this was to accommodate those members who don't want to put their profile info out there, which is visible to other members. (Some people mistakenly believe it's visible to the whole world...) Any contest entry form is between the entrant and the IAP. I don't think we're saying that contest entry can be anonymous, just that the profile doesn't need to be filled out.

If there are inconsistencies or unintended consequences of this, let's discuss.
 

mbroberg

IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
5,861
Location
Columbus, OH
Funny you should say that. I typed out a response to Andrews first set of questions and emailed them to myself so I can easily post them later. I'd be happy to email them now to anyone who wants to give me the email address. I try to make that same point. We have two seperate issues and it is obvious tha there is a misubderstanding as to why the rule exists in the first place.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Forum Runner
 

ed4copies

Local Chapter Manager
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Messages
24,061
Location
Racine, WI, USA.
The current policy started last year. Here is the statement: (Quoting Mike Broberg)

"I have been working on a rewrite of the actity rules to make them read a little clearer. When I have a presentable draft completed I'll present it and ask for feedback. There is one possible addition to the rules I'd like to get your thoughts on now.

To be eligable to participate in IAP actiities the member must have a profile that contains at least the member's real name, city and state of residence and a valid email address on file with the IAP.

This requirement mirrors what is required of members to post in the classifieds. It won't eliminate the nonperformance of everybody, but at least I would know who to look for when someone fails to follow through with an obligation of an activity. "

If your position now is consistent with the statements then, I guess I can't read the "English" language as well as I thought I could.
 
Last edited:

TomW

Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2009
Messages
1,440
Location
Allen, Texas
To be eligable to participate in IAP actiities the member must have a profile that contains at least the member's real name, city and state of residence and a valid email address on file with the IAP.

I think we should stick to this policy, for ALL Bash activities. Since the participants (entrants) in the Best Library Article contest are silent, I have no problem with notifying them that they must fill out their profile as stated above UPON WINNING A PRIZE, if that makes things easier...Id just rather have one policy and be done with it.

Tom
 

PR_Princess

Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2007
Messages
2,380
Location
Sturtevant WI, USA.
I agree rules need to be tweaked from time to time. But I don't think that a Bash contest is the place to allow anonymity. Whether the contestants are elected and "non-participatory" or not.

I believe that anytime there is money being given away in the IAP's name it should be known to whom it is going to. Particularly by management. When the prizes were BOB's it really didn't matter - but now they are in the hundreds of dollars. What if at some point you end up needing to issue 1099s?
 
Last edited:

mbroberg

IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
5,861
Location
Columbus, OH
I'm not sure I understand the rationale of the rule change, personally.

A few concerns:

This will make it much harder on the prize delivery and contest teams - and since they're all volunteers, why not make it easier rather than harder?

The only information that was previously required for participation was true name, location of residence (City and State) and a PM or Email through the IAP. In the past the prize delivery and contest teams still had to contact the winners and get their street address and zip code so the prize could be shipped to them, or an outside email address that will accept attachments. Under the new rule the prize delivery and/or contest teams may have to ask for a name, in addition to the address. How is that so much harder? Also, keep in mind that the contest chairpersons are also volunteers and to enforce this rule they have to check the profile of every entrant. Eliminating that necessity for the types of contests we are discussing makes life easier for them.

The allowance of anonymous entries would permit someone to send four different entries from different accounts, unless someone's scrutinizing their IP addresses closely - and we don't do that, I don't think.

Yes, that is true. If someone is predisposed to “beat the system” they will find a way to do so. Can anyone tell me with any certainty that no individuals have registered several different times, using several different names? Do we check IP addresses upon registration? Is it possible that someone could have an IAP account under the name of John Doe at home, Jack Doe at work, Frank Doe by tethering his phone to his notebook computer and Fred Doe at his local library? Is it possible that a single individual has registered multiple times from the same home IP address masquerading as an entire family?

Does this mean that the 'entry forms' that Curtis spent time making is all for nought? Do people just email in their pictures rather than use the forms now?

The entry form is convenient for the contest chairpersons and I would like to see its use continued. If there is a problem with contest registration procedures than identify that problem so we can deal with it. If certain information is needed to efficiently administer an activity then identify the information that is needed and we can address it. We should not attempt to solve all possible or perceived problems by enforcing a broad, “one size fits all” rule because that rarely works. Don’t deal with contest registration issues by piggy backing on a rule intended to discourage non-performance of contest participants. Instead, identify and address the contest registration issues

Who are we trying to accomodate - was this a huge issue last year? Did we have less entries because of it?

In my mind it is not a matter of accommodation. It is a matter of adjusting a rule that, in hindsight, overreaches the purpose for which it was intended. I don’t know, nor do I believe anyone else knows how the rule impacted participation last year. The problem was, and remains, that there are individuals who enter contests such as PITHs, SegBox, Cast-A-Way Box, or other activities who do not do what they are supposed to do to allow the activity to continue to its planned conclusion. These individuals negatively impact other IAP members who send a pen but don’t receive one, or they derail an activity spoiling the fun for everyone. The goal of that rule was, and is, to discourage the slackers from slacking. The theory is that if everyone knows who an individual is, or at least his name, he will be more motivated to do what he is supposed to do. This is the SOLE reason that the rule was enacted in the first place. It exists for no other reason. I can’t even say it is working because my slacker list keeps growing with each activity. In hindsight the rule extends beyond the scope its intended purpose. It is overly broad. It places a requirement on a group of people who are not contributing to the problem that the rule is intended to address. Requiring a person who is not expected to do anything to follow a rule intended to motivate them to do something serves no purpose, makes no sense and is just another needless rule. I don’t like needless rules, which is why I am adjusting this one. I’m narrowing the scope of the rule to impact only the group of people that contains the individuals who are the problem.


This was debated rather deeply last year - I don't think i understand the rationale behind why we'd reverse it this year.

We are not "reversing" it. We are tweaking it so it better targets the people it was intended to target.

Now, having said all of that, I want you to know I truly appreciate all the volunteers who work so hard, in some cases year after year, to make IAP Activities enjoyable for the membership. So, in the spirit of compromise, how about this?

I will revise the rule to say:

Members wishing to take part in IAP activities which require participants to provide or forward items to other members (i.e. pen and/or blank exchanges, chain boxes, etc.) are required to have their true first and last name, city and state (or equivalent) and be available by PM or IAP email. Members that do not have this information in their public profiles will not be allowed to participate in these types of activities.

Members wishing to take part in IAP in activities that do not require participants to provide or forward items to other members (i.e. drawings, challenges, polls, trivia contests, etc) are strongly encouraged to have the above listed information in their Public Profile to facilitate the smooth operation of the activity.

Individual IAP Activity Chairpersons may, at their discretion, require members wanting to take part in an activity to provide identifying information on an entry form or in a format they designate for the effective and efficient administration of the activity. The identifying information will be used only for the administration of the activity, including the delivery of prizes, and will be disposed of once it is no longer needed for the administration of the activity for which it was submitted.
 

ed4copies

Local Chapter Manager
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Messages
24,061
Location
Racine, WI, USA.
This is only a "point of information": I have the records for the past three years. I have not disposed of any of it, in case there is a reason we need it. One reason that occurs to me---IRS COULD ask if Exotic Blanks (as an example) really donated $500 in merchandise in a given year. (Depending on how we handle it, it could come up in an audit---as a business Exotic Blanks is compelled to keep the records for seven years, so I have done the same with IAP records.)

If you command me to destroy them, I certainly will. But that relieves me of any liability. So, I will follow this, if told to:

The identifying information will be used only for the administration of the activity, including the delivery of prizes, and will be disposed of once it is no longer needed for the administration of the activity for which it was submitted.
 

mbroberg

IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
5,861
Location
Columbus, OH
The current policy started last year. Here is the statement: (Quoting Mike Broberg)

"I have been working on a rewrite of the actity rules to make them read a little clearer. When I have a presentable draft completed I'll present it and ask for feedback. There is one possible addition to the rules I'd like to get your thoughts on now.

To be eligable to participate in IAP actiities the member must have a profile that contains at least the member's real name, city and state of residence and a valid email address on file with the IAP.

This requirement mirrors what is required of members to post in the classifieds. It won't eliminate the nonperformance of everybody, but at least I would know who to look for when someone fails to follow through with an obligation of an activity. "

If your position now is consistent with the statements then, I guess I can't read the "English" language as well as I thought I could.

My position now is identical with the statements then. If you read everything I have posted on this (or for that matter, anything have posted on this) in the last couple days then you know that I am only exempting the people who are not expected to do anything to further the activity (forward something to someone else) People who enter activities where they are expected to forward something to someone else are still required to have the information in their profile. So, I still would know who to look for when someone fails to follow through with an obligation of an activity.
 

mbroberg

IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
5,861
Location
Columbus, OH
This is only a "point of information": I have the records for the past three years. I have not disposed of any of it, in case there is a reason we need it. One reason that occurs to me---IRS COULD ask if Exotic Blanks (as an example) really donated $500 in merchandise in a given year. (Depending on how we handle it, it could come up in an audit---as a business Exotic Blanks is compelled to keep the records for seven years, so I have done the same with IAP records.)

If you command me to destroy them, I certainly will. But that relieves me of any liability. So, I will follow this, if told to:

The identifying information will be used only for the administration of the activity, including the delivery of prizes, and will be disposed of once it is no longer needed for the administration of the activity for which it was submitted.


Good God Ed, you are off in the stratosphere. I'm talking about rules to enter a contest. We are not talking about (or at least I am not talking about) anything to do with laws governing the winner of a contest and even if we were I don't think that what we are talking about will ever trump a law. If the law says keep records on donations and winners then that's what you have to do. Record the winner's information on the appropriate form (which is part of the administration of the contest, and which I sincerly doubt is any sort of IAP econtest entry form) and then shred the entry form. But is there any requirement you know of that says records must be kept on every person who enters the contest?
 

ed4copies

Local Chapter Manager
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Messages
24,061
Location
Racine, WI, USA.
Mike, I don't claim to know all laws.

I have run a business for 35 years and only know the government and banks will tell you what you SHOULD HAVE DONE only after they find out you did not do it. Then they charge fines.

So, I operate on a propensity of record-keeping.
 

mbroberg

IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
5,861
Location
Columbus, OH
To be eligable to participate in IAP actiities the member must have a profile that contains at least the member's real name, city and state of residence and a valid email address on file with the IAP.

I think we should stick to this policy, for ALL Bash activities. Since the participants (entrants) in the Best Library Article contest are silent, I have no problem with notifying them that they must fill out their profile as stated above UPON WINNING A PRIZE, if that makes things easier...Id just rather have one policy and be done with it.

Tom

Tom,

I'm not one to tell someone else how to run their shop. I do have a suggestion for you to take or leave. If you want that information start to require it when someone submits an article to the Library. As I have previously stated, the intent of this rule form it's very inception was to discourage slackers from slacking (simplified because I am getting bored with typing the same thing over and over again). I have realized that the rule, as I originally wrote it is overly broad to include members that, even if they were slackers, would not have the opportunity to slack even if they wanted to because the type of activity we are talking about does not require the person to do anything in order for the activity to be a success. This rule has nothing to do with Library submissions even though they eventually end up in a poll in the BASH because the authors are not required to do anything to contribute to the success of the contest. I'm not trying to be jerk about it. I'm just trying to get my intent across, which seems to be much harder to do than I expected.:beat-up:
 

mbroberg

IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
5,861
Location
Columbus, OH
I agree rules need to be tweaked from time to time. But I don't think that a Bash contest is the place to allow anonymity. Whether the contestants are elected and "non-participatory" or not.

I believe that anytime there is money being given away in the IAP's name it should be known to whom it is going to. Particularly by management. When the prizes were BOB's it really didn't matter - but now they are in the hundreds of dollars. What if at some point you end up needing to issue 1099s?

Dawn,

Is your only concern the issue of management not knowing who wins prizes? If so, that is a non-issue. What I am doing has nothing to do with that at all. This rule has been in effect for a year. This is the 8th Bash. Has there ever been a time during the first six BASHs that a prize was given to someone without knowing who they were? Even outside of the BASH, Have there been ANY instances of a prize being given to someone by the IAP to someone who was not known?
 

Phunky_2003

Member
Joined
May 18, 2009
Messages
1,470
Location
Bonham Texas
Whatever yall choose to do is fine with me. We will change the trivia question as needed.

I just wanted to make a comment on the IP address checking. When my wife registered, Jeff did send me an email about asking why 2 accounts. We only have the home internet so IP was probably identical. (I'm not computer/internet smart)...
So there is at least some checking into multiple accounts.

Edit to add...

She does not participate with the Bash activities as we (me and her) decided that would be improper since I am on the planning team. While she has an account normally she doesnt log in and just lurks.
 
Last edited:

mbroberg

IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
5,861
Location
Columbus, OH
ISSUE TABLED

This issue is tabled until after the BASH. Nothing changes until March at the earliest, probably later than that.

(Brief note to BASH planners - Don't interpret anything you may of read as "discord" among the Management Team. We debate things often. It's all good!)
 

maxwell_smart007

Lead Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
6,568
Location
middle of nowhere in the great, white North
Indeed - I have a philosophy degree, so debating is in my blood - and Ed just likes to talk! :biggrin: :)

But I've come to the realization that I was wrong on this one. I was thinking that we were saying that no-one had to submit ANY information when entering a contest...I didn't realize that the entry forms were still being utilized.

So with that in mind, I hereby eat humble pie! :)
 
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
3,071
Location
Seattle, WA
Mike,
Read the whole thread haven't thought about it long enough to form an opinion. I think I get what you are trying to say. If I am participating in an activity that involves me sending and receiving something from another member requiring me to fill out my whole profile should make me less likely to get something sent to me and not send it back. It also gives people another way to contact me.
Part 2,
If participating in a contest where I submit an entry my whole profile isn't needed because if I win and don't follow up the only person who looses out is me. That about sum it up?
Again not sure if this is a good idea or not, I agree it is best tabled for now because it is a little too close to the bash to make a decision.
 
Top Bottom