Ron Brown stole the Joyner Off Center Jig design and is selling as his

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I might go so far as to ask that such unethical people be banned from this forum to - in some small way - prevent such behavior in the future. I realize that there are many ways to buy and copy other's work, but no reason to leave the keys to the safe on the counter.

Just my two cents
 
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magier412 said:
I might go so far as to ask that such unethical people be banned from this forum to - in some small way - prevent such behavior in the future. I realize that there are many ways to buy and copy other's work, but no reason to leave the keys to the safe on the counter.

Just my two cents
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I think this is completely unnecessary ... after the responses to his post in this thread, I doubt if Ron Brown will be coming back anytime soon (and if he does, so what?)
 
magier412 said:
I might go so far as to ask that such unethical people be banned from this forum to - in some small way - prevent such behavior in the future. I realize that there are many ways to buy and copy other's work, but no reason to leave the keys to the safe on the counter. Just my two cents
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That won't happen. Jeff does not like to ban people unless they break rules repeatedly. Ron is welcome to post, but after Ruth's side, I will be surprised to see him do so again.

To get banned from here for "unethical" behavior it would have to have happened here and break part of the AUP.
 
magier412 said:
I might go so far as to ask that such unethical people be banned from this forum to - in some small way - prevent such behavior in the future. I realize that there are many ways to buy and copy other's work, but no reason to leave the keys to the safe on the counter.

Just my two cents
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First off, it's the internet. There is no 'complete' way to 'ban' someone other than physically restrict the person, i.e. in jail. Even then you have to have serious restrictions, i.e. Kevin Mitnick was put in solitary because the belief was he had launch codes.

It's almost as silly as banning someone from websites and using IP addresses. Truth of the matter is any of the emulator sites, translator sites, vpn sites, redirect sites, grey ghosting and .. get this .. google/yahoo/bing/aol/etc cache copies will get you what you need.

Banning might make certain people 'feel good' but in reality it does very little in the grand scope of things.
 
Well, then I will say...

IF it ain't made in the U. S. of A...

Ya know what I am getting at.

Other points.
I don't think anodizing will be a wise move for you Ruth. If something is too nice, it will be hard to want to use if it is "pretty."
Yet somehow it would be nice to have the numbers more visible. (noooo I will not get reading glasses)
 
edstreet said:
Banning might make certain people 'feel good' but in reality it does very little in the grand scope of things.
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I would disagree with that completely Ed. Jeff has in the past banned a few people (VERY rare, but sometimes necessary).

It has done good. It calms down the forum when someone has proven to be more trouble then they are worth it. Have they come back to IAP? It is indeed technically possible, but a ban was effective in that if the person did manage to return somehow, they knew not to "be themselves".

Don't believe me? There is only one good way to know for sure - get yourself banned. :eek: :biggrin:
 
edstreet said:
Indeed it has. On many private discussions I have had on this topic one question came up that I wanted to present. Was there any type of contract, agreement, business relations or the like between these two parties that pre-dates the offending actions?
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Back on topic Ed, I think your question is answered above. Ruth sells for Joyner, Ron bought one unit from Ruth. The only other business relationship is Ruth sells her products to peach tree. For this conversation there is 3 parties, not two but I think it pretty clear based on the parties replies here.
 
What really does not make sense is this.

If indeed "50 units ordered" was made and 6 months or so later no delivery then does that mean 50 units were purchased and why was there no complaint about the $ issue? The other side of this the person stated only one unit was bought and did not mention 50 units.

Seems that somewhere in this is a lie being told. ...
 
Coolhammerman said:
The folks at Peachtree Woodworking Supply placed in order for 50 Joyner jigs with Ruth. We planned to sell Ruth Niles Joyner pendant jigs at all of the woodworking shows around the country.
Ron Brown
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Ruth Niles said:
3. Lie: I never received an order and it would have gone directly to Richard Joyner since I am only his distributor and have no authority to sell wholesale.
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Who do you believe?
 
mbroberg said:
Coolhammerman said:
The folks at Peachtree Woodworking Supply placed in order for 50 Joyner jigs with Ruth. We planned to sell Ruth Niles Joyner pendant jigs at all of the woodworking shows around the country.
Ron Brown
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Ruth Niles said:
3. Lie: I never received an order and it would have gone directly to Richard Joyner since I am only his distributor and have no authority to sell wholesale.
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Who do you believe?
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Correct. Which begged my question of ..

Was there any type of contract, agreement, business relations or the like between these two parties that pre-dates the offending actions?
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If you were placing an order for 50 of these would you not be in contact often and see how things were going? It's called communication...

So either way we have one or both parties having lies.

With out more details and history on this there is no way of knowing what or where the truth of the matter is. So both parties should reply and be more forth coming in the matter.
 
Any order for 50 items like this would have involved some type of payment arrangements. Just not reasonable to expect a maker to produce 50 of any items without some type of money being exchanged or having a finical arrangement made. Terms would have been agreed to or full payment would have been made at the time the order was placed. They did not have standing financial or maker to buyer type accounts setup so something wold need to be setup at the time the order was placed. Since I have heard of no such type arrangements I doubt any order for 50 was ever placed.

So I will try to avoid this vender and any company he represents. I will not reward those who choose to profit shamelessly of the works of others. Maybe legal but so is a total boycott of their goods and services.
 
For those so inclined to pass judgment on what happened then I think more than enough information has been provided by the only people that have firsthand knowledge of what happened. They each told their stories without speaking in riddles and overusing open ended rhetorical questions, which is always appreciated.
 
Without impeding on anyone's freedom of speech...I would love to get back to ways to advance the penturning hobby. And yes, I don't have to read the posts (and I stopped)....but there's a lot of talent being consumed by a subject possibly better left for another "forum". Let's see some pens, learn about some techniques, and share goodwill!

I am going to start my 4th by making a few Vertexs, Royales, and Jr gents! Can't wait!
 
TonyL said:
Without impeding on anyone's freedom of speech...I would love to get back to ways to advance the penturning hobby. And yes, I don't have to read the posts (and I stopped)....but there's a lot of talent being consumed by a subject possibly better left for another "forum". Let's see some pens, learn about some techniques, and share goodwill!

I am going to start my 4th by making a few Vertexs, Royales, and Jr gents! Can't wait!
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Yes!!!! let's see some pens, even ugly ones, tell me more about how to do some of the things I want to know how to do.
Let's all go back to TonyL's post hit like and then unsubscribe from this thread. That's what I'm going to do.
 
First I want to thank everyone for all the positive words that have been said. Yes, Ruth Niles does sell the tool I designed and have manufactured here in St. Pete, FL. This tool is well designed from a collaborative effort between my brother-in-law and myself. And with much input from IAP members, the tool has grown and changed a few times over the years. The tool is not some cheap import.

There never has been any communication regarding Peachtree Woodworking Supply asking to be a vendor or ordering a quantity of 50.

The pendant plate is made out of high quality 6061 aluminum. Both Ruth and I stand by the product and if there is ever a problem, we do everything we can to find a solution. This goes for the pendant jig or any of her stoppers.
As for the drawbar and the ¼" rod not being strong enough. The only purpose of the drawbar is to hold the #2 morse taper into the headstock. When I use mine, it only needs to be hand tightened. Depending on the steel alloy used, ¼" all thread has a tensile strength between 1,900 and 2,700 lbs. Well beyond what it needs to hold the mandrel in the headstock.

One thing that I really have not talked about much is that this tool is manufactured locally. And a part of all sales supports the teaching of middle school kids woodworking skills and a local youth sailing community. Both of which are a passion of mine. Over the years, there has been several local IAP members who have stopped by to either see the pendant jig in person or share tips and tricks they have learned on the lathe.

I do agree with many others. In the end, we all choose whom we order from. There are many wonderful vendors that I have ordered from such as Craft Supply USA, Ruth Niles, Captain Eddie, Exotic Blanks just to name a few.
 
sailing_away said:
One thing that I really have not talked about much is that this tool is manufactured locally. And a part of all sales supports the teaching of middle school kids woodworking skills and a local youth sailing community. Both of which are a passion of mine.
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Makes me even happier and prouder that I bought one from you in the early days. :smile:
 
nuff said
 

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Ron Brown and Peach Tree have stolen my Acrylic Pen Buffing System (which I sell to Penn State, Craft Supply, Rockler and many others) and now have it labeled under his "Ron Brown's Best" label. He even had the nerve to tell me to my face when he purchased from me at a wood working show that he wanted it so he show his grandson how to finish acrylics properly, that was in March. In October he and Peach Tree announced their "NEW" Acrylic pen buffing system which was a direct knock off of my two wheel acrylic pen buffing system! Ron has stolen other ideas of mine and MANY other peoples ideas and turned them into his "Best" - he should label them "Ron Browns stolen products!"
Barry Gross
 
Just an observation about only buying from the original inventor after woodturning for 30 years. As a quick short list, how many of you use a Barracuda, Hurricane, or Grizzly 4 jaw chuck (knockoffs of Oneway or Vicmarc), circuit board pen kits (all of them are a knockoff from an older member of IAP), a Jet or Powermatic live center (they are a knockoff of Oneway), or a buffing system other than from JR Beall (certainly not an original invention, but the first packaged system for wood finishing I am familiar with). Not saying any of this is right or wrong, just saying that the original inventor gets lost with time and personal budgets often dictate purchasing decisions.
 
I designed a slide for the Engel fridge (plus 54 other makes) to go into the back of 4WD's. When I sold my business 4 years later there were 14 other makers of that unit, different materials, but all the same concept. Even Engel, who took 100 units every other month, took a unit to China, to get it copied. The runners weren't up to the standard, and fell apart in our rugged environment. To get it patented in Australia was going to cost something like $100,000, money I didn't have.
I know of a farmer, who lost his farm and over a million dollars in legal fees, just because the patent attorney, (who was Australia's top PA) put in adjoining, instead of adjoining/adjacent. Things only have to be changed 10%, to get away with it, unless it is a concept.
Kryn
 
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low_48 said:
Just an observation about only buying from the original inventor after woodturning for 30 years. As a quick short list, how many of you use a Barracuda, Hurricane, or Grizzly 4 jaw chuck (knockoffs of Oneway or Vicmarc), circuit board pen kits (all of them are a knockoff from an older member of IAP), a Jet or Powermatic live center (they are a knockoff of Oneway), or a buffing system other than from JR Beall (certainly not an original invention, but the first packaged system for wood finishing I am familiar with). Not saying any of this is right or wrong, just saying that the original inventor gets lost with time and personal budgets often dictate purchasing decisions.
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You left out PSI, Berea, watch parts and Tormek.
 
I purchased a Joyner off set jig from Ruth Niles and love it. Her website has video clips (3) showing the use of the jig. All three suggest the use of a draw bar for safety and I believe her site recommends the use of one as well. I have not seen Ron Brown's off set jig to comment on how it is alike or different from the Joyner jig.

However, the discussions in this thread prompted me to check the Peachtree catalog and I found what appears to be the same situation with Ron Browns texturing tools. I believe they may have been sold by Sorby and Wagner before they appeared as "Ron Brown's Best". They seem by photos to be exact copies. I also note that Ron Brown is selling wood finishing products originally brought out by Doctor's Wood Shop. There does appear to be a trend here to copy others work for the sake of marketing a less expensive copy. If profit is the sole motive then it would seem unethical even if it may be legal.
Wayne
 
I still find this so curious of a post. The entire woodworking industry, and especially the woodturning side, is filled with copies. In fact, our countries history is filled with examples. Ever read the history between the Wright Brothers and Glenn Curtiss? The Feds made them "kiss and make up" for the war effort. But the Wrights spent years in court suing Curtiss. Curiously, the company is now called Curtiss-Wright today.
 
low_48 said:
I still find this so curious of a post. The entire woodworking industry, and especially the woodturning side, is filled with copies. In fact, our countries history is filled with examples. Ever read the history between the Wright Brothers and Glenn Curtiss? The Feds made them "kiss and make up" for the war effort. But the Wrights spent years in court suing Curtiss. Curiously, the company is now called Curtiss-Wright today.
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This is a really good question and I think it deserves it's own thread - one that will have a different title that this specific instance.
 
well I do not own one, and have never held one in my hand. My opinion.. yes they had the right to copy the item... legally at least... morally.. not at all.. I work hard to help small businesses out and I know if I have a choice to buy the same item from Ruth or from anyone else, I am going to buy from Ruth always. Customer service is HUGE in my mind and she is nothing but top notch in that. It makes me sad that the person who developed the idea and design will not be the one to get all of the profit, but those of us who appreciate quality will continue to make the purchases from the right people. I hope this thread generates more sales for Ruth in all aspects.
 
low_48 said:
Just an observation about only buying from the original inventor after woodturning for 30 years. As a quick short list, how many of you use a Barracuda, Hurricane, or Grizzly 4 jaw chuck (knockoffs of Oneway or Vicmarc), circuit board pen kits (all of them are a knockoff from an older member of IAP), a Jet or Powermatic live center (they are a knockoff of Oneway), or a buffing system other than from JR Beall (certainly not an original invention, but the first packaged system for wood finishing I am familiar with). Not saying any of this is right or wrong, just saying that the original inventor gets lost with time and personal budgets often dictate purchasing decisions.
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1st off let me say that I don't know if the original companies filed patents, or obtained copyrights to their products. But they are larger companies that should have done so. Even so, if a patent was filed after 1995, it's good for 20 years. After that, then I think it's ok to produce a similar item.

But that doesn't make sense for something with a limited market like an off center jig for making a pendant. The legal fees would probably eat up the majority of the profit for the 1st 20 years. Also Ron Brown says that Ruth is neglecting 100,000 customers a year. I'd be really surprised if the total jigs sold from Ruth and Ron combined was anywhere near 50,000, let alone 100,000. In such a niche market, there really should be some laws for the little guys. But since there isn't (I don't think anyway). About the only thing we can do is judge with our pocketbooks. I have been a Peachtree customer in the past, but no longer. When I read this thread, I unsubscribed from getting anymore e-mails.
 
How to deal with rip off merchants.

Copyright is created when a work of art is first made. It is intrinsic and it is not necessary to do any paper work to engender it. Trademark and design registration cost money and Patents are very expensive. If the knock off is made in China they ignore patents anyway unless they hold the rights in which case they aggressively pursue you. I hold several patents in my primary area of expertise all paid for by the company that I worked for at the time of invention. All of them cost more than 100K to acquire. A couple of them were ripped off by companies in mainland China and getting legal redress was long and expensive ( to the point of not being worth taking) I have seen several cases where artists work has been blatantly copied by large corporations (in one case onto a best selling t shirt) and the cost of legal action was prohibative.

There is only one solution and that is to boycott both the copier and any company that is a vendor for said copier.
 
I fail to see why everyone (other than Ruth) is getting so upset here, this goes on all the time, even between vendors on this forum. There is one person here that spent a lot of money and time developing a product that was made and sold here and after one person ordered one for himself, he went into business making and selling the nearly same item. Its all about the money and those that have the most can fight it, the little guy usually gets the shaft. That's life, suck it up and move on.
This is my opinion and I can have it, please feel free to like or dislike it or me if you want. Personally, if I was to buy one of these jigs, my money would go to Ruth simply because of the way a salesperson spoke to me at a woodworkers show while visiting the Peachtree display. First impressions can be everything.
 
Like many have mentioned, the way to make a statement to the Ron Browns of the world. Yes (unfortunately there are others just like him), that would rather make $$$ off the labors of others. For out of the lack of gray matter, laziness or ingenuity can not do it on their own.

That being said (in may opinion) the way to get the message across is in their pockets. Believe me his type watch every penny were it goes and how it is invested. He will not like money sitting on the stock room shelf.

Personally I made a size able purchase from Peach Tree at last years SWAT Symposium. It will not happen again this year, and may actually let them know why none of my $$$ was spent with them.
 
Here's the thing though - outside of this forum, whos even going to know?

Most people will either see it at the woodworking show or the ptree website or Ron Brown's email newsletter and think, hey that's a cool invention.

Others will see it and think, oh, he probably licensed or distributes it.

Others won't know or care who invented / sold it first.

I'll make a bold prediction. (Not joyfully): Ron Brown will sell many more of these than Ruth Niles does.
 
edstreet said:
So basically what I am hearing is many GOOD reasons to *NOT* share info, ideas, designs or the like on the forum here. Else the great copy machine will go to work.
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I had a feeling someone was going to take it there.

That's like listening to Sir Isaac Newton telling the story of gravity and hearing "man, don't plant apple trees so they don't fall on your head".

I'm pretty sure the moral of this thread is "avoid the rotten apple", not "don't share your applesauce recipes".

The OP didn't say that the idea was stolen from the forum here (as a matter of fact there is 2 sellers who say that a single item was purchased before being copied).

Now, if you don't want to share info, ideas, etc here - that's your prerogative... but I'll tell you that there is WAY more good ideas shared here than are "stolen". However, if you are holding back from sharing here because your ideas might be stolen, you can't stop there... Don't share here, facebook or anywhere else on the web. Don't sell your products, don't MAKE anything, heck - you better just keep the idea in your head. It will be good and safe there! (and just in case you can't read it - there's more than a pinch of sarcasm here).
 
edstreet said:
So basically what I am hearing is many GOOD reasons to *NOT* share info, ideas, designs or the like on the forum here. Else the great copy machine will go to work.
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Maybe but doesn't seem to apply that much for this particular case.

Some products are very difficult to duplicate and thus sharing info / process opens someone up to copying etc.

I've been told by some makers that the issue is sometimes that someone will claim they want to one for themselves or personal use and then they pop up for sale. I can understand this concern and have no doubts that it's true.

Others don't intend to market a product and this have no problem sharing all sorts of info.

In the case of this jig, there aren't a lot of secrets involved once you hold one in your hand. The design took a lot of work and trial and error for sure but the final product is very easily apparent to duplicate.
 
" Here's the thing though - outside of this forum, who's even going to know? ""

Dan "Come on"

That all depends on you, me and everyone else on this forum that agrees that this practice is unethical. Peach Tree or Ron Brown are not the only ones that excess to Face Book and other forms of social media. Send an email to all of the members of your wood turning/wood working clubs, let them know! Besides that there is always the good ole fashion WORD OF MOUTH! That still is one of the best ways to spread the word.

Again like someone mentioned this a small niche of a market. You take away even a small portion of their customers it will hurt them, may not put them out of business, but will hurt.

Then maybe the next guy will think twice.

So if we do sit back on our butt's and do nothing, we are basically condoning the practice. Then we have no business complaining. Let's just shut up!

Don't want to go into politics but, if you need an example look at what this country has come to. While the vast majority sits in their peach's & cream world. The special interest groups have chipped away at everything we once held dear.
 
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It may not be patented but it definitely would fall under copyright law. Copyright exists when something is created even without it being registered. A direct copy would be copyright infringement and a lawyer who specializes in this part of law should be consulted as we here most likely know enough to get ourselves in trouble... :confused:
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