Ron Brown stole the Joyner Off Center Jig design and is selling as his

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rsx1974

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This is unacceptable!!

Ron Brown of Peachtree Woodworking Supply has STOLEN another artist's tool that was designed about 6 years ago and is now selling as his. He didn't change anything!!! Not even the color.

He did change the name from "Joyner Off Center Jig" to "Ron Brown's Best Off Center Chuck System". But that is it!!!

Richard designed the tool, manufactures it here in the US and has taken input and feedback from all of us over the years and has continuously improved it. He established a relationship with Ruth Niles, and if you do anything with bottle stoppers you know Ruth. She has been offering his jig since the beginning and still does… Joyner Pendant Plates

A quick search and you can find several articles and pictures of great things people have done with the Joyner Jig. This article is from 2010. http://familywoodworking.org/forums/oversize_attachments/Pendant Turning Tutorial.PDF

About 8 years ago I found IAP, the ideas, the people and the true artists I met here and shared with are amazing people with unbelievable talent. It is disgusting and unacceptable what Ron Brown has done to simply make a buck. I can tell you right now that under no circumstance will I ever buy ANYTHING from Peachtree ever again.

We turn because we love to do it, there is something inside us wired this way, it is a precious gift, and we share it, give it away, and would teach someone else what we do without blinking an eye. I believe Ron Brown just does not get it, and is NOT a retailer that adds anything to our hobby/love.

Sorry for my rant, but I have owned one of Richard Joyner's jigs from over 6 years ago and was deeply saddened for all artists when I found this… Lathe Accessories - Chucks

Please take a moment and seriously ask yourself if Ron Brown from Peachtree is adding to our hobby or destroying it?

Thanks for taking time to read this.
 
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If he did indeed steal it, then I agree -- unacceptable.

Did you contact Richard Joyner or Ruth Niles to ask if they were aware of this? (It is possible that he/she/they made an agreement with Ron Brown for him to sell these things "under license".)
 
Fortunately we have a good selection of vendors here at IAP. Even Ruth and Richard, (who don't post often) are here - they both have answered questions about their products and are very proud of what they do.

Its a shame that yet another small vendor gets their idea taken (there are many others here..). Its especially a shame when its something like this that was completely original and made in the USA. If you search for pendant plate here on IAP you'll find many threads that mention it and it was always the "Joyner" plate.

Moral of the story is support the vendors here, they have proven their worth. Everyone has their favorites but all of them started small and many of them started out of serving JUST here! I remember the days long before turntex was a website and to order from exotics you had to get a spreadsheet emailed to you!
 
I'm quite surprised that Joyner doesn't have a patent on this. Even without, on the surface, it sure looks like a dirty move. I'm Hoping there is more to the story and folks wouldn't actually do something like this.
 
NittanyLion said:
I'm quite surprised that Joyner doesn't have a patent on this. Even without, on the surface, it sure looks like a dirty move. I'm Hoping there is more to the story and folks wouldn't actually do something like this.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately patents are a bit much for "the little guy"... Even the DIY route would probably have killed every bit of profit I imagine he would have had for this small market.... http://patentfile.org/howmuchdoesitcosttopatentanidea/
 
Peachtree has ripped off many things.They see a product and then get it manufactured in China where cost are low.Defending copyrights,trademarks and patents is costly.The legal firms require tens of thousands of dollars as a retainer before they will even take the case.
 
VERY Sorry to hear this! I've had one of Ruth Niles/Richard's off center jigs for a couple of years and couldn't be more pleased... I totally agree that the patent process is NOT designed for the amateur inventor and more designed for 'big business'...sooo much paper work, procedures to follow, and cost! The original patent process was much simpler and designed to protect inventors and not 'copy cats', but I guess like many other things these days, big business has taken over the process by 'buying' their buddies in congress... :>( Hope everyone will refuse to purchase the stolen jig and take their business elsewhere! Safe turning to all!
 
Patents are expensive; sometimes prohibitive...

This is sadly done all too often, and simply because they "could do it."

Just because you "can do it," does not mean you "should do it."

I support using our "purchasing power" to creditable vendors, and those associated with IAP.
 
I appreciate this thread. I know who to avoid, and can pass that info along whenever there is an opportunity. At least we (collectively IAP) can stand for what is right, and thin out some of the profits from one who appears to lack integrity and decency.

And oh, BTW, may the bird of paradise fly up Mr Ron Brown's nose, and then take a big POOP!!:eek::mad:
 
Some here might remember when Paul Huffmans pen vise was blantely copied by a guy named Tim Geist. As far as I know you wouldn't find his vises for sale now. Just shows you the strength of you folks here at IAP , you knew who brought it to us and supported Paul now let's all support Richard.
Richard one way to look at it is imitation is the highest form of flattery, won't help your bottom line now but in the long run it will and hurt theirs.
 
I enjoy the Joyner jig I have. It is a fine product!

I would really like to hear Ron Brown's explanation of this issue before forming an opinion.
 
Devils Advocate

WHO took the idea? Ron Brown or Peachtree? Saying that Ron Brown Stole it can get you RSX a big old school Libel law suit. Just because there is a Label "Ron Brown's Best" doesn't mean he Stole anything. All Peachtree can say is that it was a Graphics error. If you go to Ron's Site it is not listed.
So I would say that it might be a wise idea for Jeff to remove this thread. Because, You RSX, IAP and Jeff can get sued. Doesn't matter if they don't have an open and shut case. Jeff will have to get a lawyer just to protect himself.

Yet, it is a bit strange that the pictures from Ruth's site is perhaps being used on Peachtree....
 
I met Ron aND know the folks at Peachtree my experience with both has been very good, as my experience with Ruth I would have to see guilt be proven in a court of law or the evidence to be so compelling that it would be a blantant "crime" to practicaly a child then my conscience would guide where my money is spent I really hope the accusations are false and it was all a misunderstanding I am not saYing that the op has been frivolous or irresponsible. I am just saying what I am going to do just
As others with very good intenations have expressed their intentions much peace and a safe holiday to AlL thanks again to all that have served or stI'll serve to protect our country and our streets typing this on my wifes tablet and really struggling lol
 
Holz Mechaniker said:
WHO took the idea? Ron Brown or Peachtree? Saying that Ron Brown Stole it can get you RSX a big old school Libel law suit. Just because there is a Label "Ron Brown's Best" doesn't mean he Stole anything. All Peachtree can say is that it was a Graphics error. If you go to Ron's Site it is not listed.
So I would say that it might be a wise idea for Jeff to remove this thread. Because, You RSX, IAP and Jeff can get sued. Doesn't matter if they don't have an open and shut case. Jeff will have to get a lawyer just to protect himself.

Yet, it is a bit strange that the pictures from Ruth's site is perhaps being used on Peachtree....
Click to expand...


Incorrect. Jeff is well protected in this matter. There is nothing they can hit him with that would be of any value. Esp after a recent SCOTUS ruling this past month that route is quite clear. Elonis v. United States.

I would also like to point out and make note of the long history and usage of the 'cheer and jeer' section.

Unfortunately we do not have a good selection of vendors on this forum, as many have been drove off by various means (beyond the scope of this thread mind you) but this does make me wonder. .... is Ron Brown of Peachtree Woodworking Supply a member here?
 
edstreet said:
Holz Mechaniker said:
WHO took the idea? Ron Brown or Peachtree? Saying that Ron Brown Stole it can get you RSX a big old school Libel law suit. Just because there is a Label "Ron Brown's Best" doesn't mean he Stole anything. All Peachtree can say is that it was a Graphics error. If you go to Ron's Site it is not listed.
So I would say that it might be a wise idea for Jeff to remove this thread. Because, You RSX, IAP and Jeff can get sued. Doesn't matter if they don't have an open and shut case. Jeff will have to get a lawyer just to protect himself.

Yet, it is a bit strange that the pictures from Ruth's site is perhaps being used on Peachtree....
Click to expand...


Incorrect. Jeff is well protected in this matter. There is nothing they can hit him with that would be of any value. Esp after a recent SCOTUS ruling this past month that route is quite clear. Elonis v. United States.

I would also like to point out and make note of the long history and usage of the 'cheer and jeer' section.

Unfortunately we do not have a good selection of vendors on this forum, as many have been drove off by various means (beyond the scope of this thread mind you) but this does make me wonder. .... is Ron Brown of Peachtree Woodworking Supply a member here?
Click to expand...
Are you sure you meant Elonis v. United States?
This was about threats made to an estranged wife, coworkers, a kindergarten class, state and federal law enforcement officers in Facebook
posts using rap lyrics under a fake name.
You can read it on the Supreme Courts web page.
 
You are incorrect Mr. John T Charlier!

It is my policy to never "Copy" another product. If I can improve it, modify it to correct a serious deficiency or add features which significantly improve an item and it is not Patented, Copyrighted, Trademarked, etc. and if I think there is enough market demand, there is a possibility I will do something with that item. To copy something outright is unethical, to modify it and improve it so it is a better value for the customer is business.

There are always two sides to every story. You have seen fit to lecture me, make harsh accusations and issue judgments having heard only one side of the story. Since you think so little of me I wonder if you would care to get your facts straight before impugning my character further.

The folks at Peachtree Woodworking Supply placed in order for 50 Joyner jigs with Ruth. We planned to sell Ruth Niles Joyner pendant jigs at all of the woodworking shows around the country. 90 days went by and we still had not received the product. Several phone calls later still no product and no prospect of getting any product. Did Ruth not wish to sell to us? Did she not have the capacity to supply Joyner jigs and the quantity we needed? Did she not want the retail competition? In any event, after more than six months and having missed an entire show season it was clear that Ruth would not be supplying us with the Joyner pendant jig.

The folks at Peachtree, my largest dealer, asked me to design a safer more professional looking less expensive more functional off-center turning jig. Our research revealed that Ruth or Mr. Joyner did not care enough about their design to apply for a patent, copyright, or trademark so I designed a much better unit. The basic technology is the same but there are significant and important design changes which make my jig safer and easier to use, more professional looking and a much better value. The most significant change among several was the inclusion of a drawbar system 50% larger and 100% stronger than the optional drawbar Ruth offers. I purchased, at full price, a Joiner jig for my personal use from Ruth at one of the symposiums. With no drawbar Ruth's jig constantly loosened from the headstock spindle, especially when I used it in the offset mode. This amounted to a huge and dangerous design flaw which I corrected. My jig although similar appearing is also shot blasted giving the entire unit a much more professionally finished satin look. All sharp edges are removed so that when the numerals are engraved rather than stamped they appear much more crisp and easier to read with no sharp edges to cut you when bumped inadvertantly.

Ruth's failure to respond for whatever reason forced us to manufacture our own product. It was not our first choice. There is some small degree of overlap at the Woodturning symposiums where both Ruth and I are vendors. My real market is the woodworking show circuit, a circuit Ruth totally neglects. How can she purport to serve the turning world when she neglects nearly 100,000 customers a year?

I am pretty sure that Ruth will deny all of this as she did when she slandered me in a very loud shrill voice and called me a "son of a bitch" before a crowd of AAW attendees this past Friday. However, the facts are the facts. I can only conclude that Ruth Niles is struggling to separate fact from fiction. In the future I suggest you hear both sides of the story before making untrue accusations and defaming someone's good character. No one bothered to contact me before posting this hearsay bogus information. This is my only response.

Ron Brown
 
Wow, so we have malicious intent, we have holding the designer hostage to a 3rd party decision, we have a copy that is well above the 80% level, possibly in the 95+% bracket.

That is well beyond the unprofessional and unethical borders.
 
CREID said:
Are you sure you meant Elonis v. United States?
This was about threats made to an estranged wife, coworkers, a kindergarten class, state and federal law enforcement officers in Facebook
posts using rap lyrics under a fake name.
You can read it on the Supreme Courts web page.
Click to expand...

Correct, that's limits on 1A and free speech. Same holds true when it comes to this issue and Jeff. As I said Jeff is well protected on cases like this. Don't even go there.
 
So in regards to the Joyner jig, I don't care about what mandrel you use or the hundred different ways you could attach your Joyner Jig to your lathe. He bead blasted it and engraves the numbers VS stamping them...

In my book it look like a 99% copy of the Joyner Jig... Just my view on it!

Based on what I know and have seen, would I want my product sold by Peachtree? No thanks.

Hope everyone has a great weekend! Turn something awesome!

John
 
I have one of the Joyner jigs along with the Ruth Niles mandrel and I love it.

BTW, I made a drawbar for it using threaded rod and it works great. Total cost was about $2...

Looks like I'll be avoiding Peachtree as well.
 
So, Mr Ron Brown...

You havn't stated your exact relationship with Peachtree, but you use the word "WE" an aweful lot, so I don't know if this is you responsible yourself or if you also talk about peachtree, so I'm just going to reply to YOUR comments.

Coolhammerman said:
Our research revealed that Ruth or Mr. Joyner did not care enough about their design to apply for a patent, copyright, or trademark so I designed a much better unit.
Click to expand...
Just because something isn't patented doesn't make it right when you copy it.

Coolhammerman said:
Since you think so little of me I wonder if you would care to get your facts straight before impugning my character further.
Click to expand...
So, lets look at some of the 'facts' that you have presented in your defense.

Coolhammerman said:
I purchased, at full price, a Joiner jig for my personal use from Ruth at one of the symposiums.
Click to expand...
So one fact is that you actually have one of the Joyner jigs in your hands... Interesting... Lets continue shall we.

Coolhammerman said:
The most significant change among several was the inclusion of a drawbar system 50% larger and 100% stronger than the optional drawbar Ruth offers.
Click to expand...
Fact - This is not an actual change to the Joyner jig at all. This is a different OPTIONAL accessory to go with the jig. If this is your most significant change, I don't think this helps your case much.

Coolhammerman said:
With no drawbar Ruth's jig constantly loosened from the headstock spindle, especially when I used it in the offset mode.
This amounted to a huge and dangerous design flaw which I corrected.
Click to expand...
Fact - Do some searching here, there has not been a single report of anyone having a problem with this loosening. As a matter of fact, the reverse is true - most people who have asked anything about this or other chucks have asked for how to keep it from getting STUCK onto the headstock. You will find answers including a piece of paper or a non-stick washer.
Opinion - I've personally never send the need for a drawbar on a screw-on-the-headstock item. Drawbars are more often used with MT based items. Look for bowl turning even with unstable, unrounded raw materials - I bet you will find that most dont show using a drawbar with their chucks.
Question - I'd love to hear from other Joyner plate users... Does ANYONE use a drawbar?

Coolhammerman said:
My jig although similar appearing is also shot blasted giving the entire unit a much more professionally finished satin look.
All sharp edges are removed so that when the numerals are engraved rather than stamped they appear much more crisp and easier to read with no sharp edges to cut you when bumped inadvertantly.
Click to expand...
Fact - These are all pretty minor superficial changes. You havn't actually told us yet about any actualy improvements to the DESIGN of the jig.

Coolhammerman said:
The basic technology is the same but there are significant and important design changes which make my jig safer and easier to use, more professional looking and a much better value.
Click to expand...
You say "the basic technology is the same", but you say NOTHING of any real significant changes to the jig itself. Your changes are purely cosmetic. I would be willing to bet that if you showed it w/o a name, it would get confused with a Joyner jig.

As a matter of FACT, from the pictures is looks IDENTICAL in design to the Joyner jig. The pieces, attachment methods,the hold patterns and placements.

Coolhammerman said:
Ruth's failure to respond for whatever reason forced us to manufacture our own product. It was not our first choice.
Click to expand...

You talked alot about Ruth. What you did not talk about was Mr Joyner, whos name is on the product. You didn't say ANYTHING about having contacted him. Did you try to work with him directly? You didn't say so.

Regardless .. There is only one FACT that you stated that I think was stated correctly. There is no Patent on the Joyner plate. However, that fact doesn't justify making as direct a copy as you have.

There is many people on this site that are little guys that have made unique products (for their sake I'm NOT going to list any more of them in this thread) and I don't believe you are going to win many over with your "only response" to this.

And disclaimer - YES, I'm related to the OP.. And YES - I own a Joyner jig and love it.

One final Note - this is not a gang attack on Ron Brown. I hope this stays a reasonable thread. I intentionally broke down my post with quotes from Ron to try and make my points clear to his comments. A couple of big paragraphs of commentary could have been confusing and would likely be hard not to turn into an attack.
 
Holz Mechaniker said:
WHO took the idea? Ron Brown or Peachtree? Saying that Ron Brown Stole it can get you RSX a big old school Libel law suit. Just because there is a Label "Ron Brown's Best" doesn't mean he Stole anything. All Peachtree can say is that it was a Graphics error. If you go to Ron's Site it is not listed.
So I would say that it might be a wise idea for Jeff to remove this thread. Because, You RSX, IAP and Jeff can get sued. Doesn't matter if they don't have an open and shut case. Jeff will have to get a lawyer just to protect himself.

Yet, it is a bit strange that the pictures from Ruth's site is perhaps being used on Peachtree....
Click to expand...

I wasn't going to get in on this thread, however, I do understand a lot of you don't want to form an opinion based on one person's post.

The facts:
Ron Brown is part of Peachtree (Sheri Baxter, part owner).
About a year ago Ron purchased one of the "Joyner Off-Set Jig Chucks" saying he wanted to try it and wanted to give classes using it.
Ron Brown, as part of Peachtree, sent it to China and started selling it as "his" design.
At the show in Pitts. I went to their booth and told Ron he was the most unethical man I have ever met, he said "You would not be able to supply us with the quantity we needed." (exact words thus admitting he had knock offs made). I said that we, indeed, could supply them, they NEVER asked or ordered and that in no way justifies them blatantly doing exact knock-offs. He said nothing to that.

They sell my stoppers and, after this, I am quite nervous about that!

The one thing I heard a few times was "It's wrong but everyone does it."
Yes, it's wrong. No, "everyone" does not do it. And saying "it's wrong but..." is like saying "it's ok".

Richard and I have come up with a way of making his kit better; I'm going to include a Free drawbar and Richard is looking into having the plates anodized for increased longevity. The alloy Richard uses for his jig is far superior to what comes out of China.

Ok, so I gave you a little more than "the facts"..... :)

Ruth Niles
 
Alpha - your comments are good except for the one about the attachment method. It uses an mt2 bottle stopper mandrel not screw on.

I have had taper accessories come loose in rare occasion.

I have a Joyner jig and use with the psi screw on stopper mandrel and works well.
 
Dad had a '68 Oldsmobile 440 before he passed.....quite proud of that car he was. He didn't feel safe in it, so he had a mechanic install a power braking system. He also had it re-painted a different color to spruce it up. After he was done making these small changes, improving the car in his mind, it was still an Oldsmobile 440......and when I sold it, I sold it as an Oldsmobile 440......
 
Coolhammerman said:
You are incorrect Mr. John T Charlier!

It is my policy to never "Copy" another product. If I can improve it, modify it to correct a serious deficiency or add features which significantly improve an item and it is not Patented, Copyrighted, Trademarked, etc. and if I think there is enough market demand, there is a possibility I will do something with that item. To copy something outright is unethical, to modify it and improve it so it is a better value for the customer is business.

There are always two sides to every story. You have seen fit to lecture me, make harsh accusations and issue judgments having heard only one side of the story. Since you think so little of me I wonder if you would care to get your facts straight before impugning my character further.

The folks at Peachtree Woodworking Supply placed in order for 50 Joyner jigs with Ruth. We planned to sell Ruth Niles Joyner pendant jigs at all of the woodworking shows around the country. 90 days went by and we still had not received the product. Several phone calls later still no product and no prospect of getting any product. Did Ruth not wish to sell to us? Did she not have the capacity to supply Joyner jigs and the quantity we needed? Did she not want the retail competition? In any event, after more than six months and having missed an entire show season it was clear that Ruth would not be supplying us with the Joyner pendant jig.

The folks at Peachtree, my largest dealer, asked me to design a safer more professional looking less expensive more functional off-center turning jig. Our research revealed that Ruth or Mr. Joyner did not care enough about their design to apply for a patent, copyright, or trademark so I designed a much better unit. The basic technology is the same but there are significant and important design changes which make my jig safer and easier to use, more professional looking and a much better value. The most significant change among several was the inclusion of a drawbar system 50% larger and 100% stronger than the optional drawbar Ruth offers. I purchased, at full price, a Joiner jig for my personal use from Ruth at one of the symposiums. With no drawbar Ruth's jig constantly loosened from the headstock spindle, especially when I used it in the offset mode. This amounted to a huge and dangerous design flaw which I corrected. My jig although similar appearing is also shot blasted giving the entire unit a much more professionally finished satin look. All sharp edges are removed so that when the numerals are engraved rather than stamped they appear much more crisp and easier to read with no sharp edges to cut you when bumped inadvertantly.

Ruth's failure to respond for whatever reason forced us to manufacture our own product. It was not our first choice. There is some small degree of overlap at the Woodturning symposiums where both Ruth and I are vendors. My real market is the woodworking show circuit, a circuit Ruth totally neglects. How can she purport to serve the turning world when she neglects nearly 100,000 customers a year?

I am pretty sure that Ruth will deny all of this as she did when she slandered me in a very loud shrill voice and called me a "son of a bitch" before a crowd of AAW attendees this past Friday. However, the facts are the facts. I can only conclude that Ruth Niles is struggling to separate fact from fiction. In the future I suggest you hear both sides of the story before making untrue accusations and defaming someone's good character. No one bothered to contact me before posting this hearsay bogus information. This is my only response.

Ron Brown
Click to expand...


1. Lie: I have one of Ron Brown's Best Off-Set Jigs, took it to the machine shop and there were NO changes, improvements or anything; it is exact.
2. Lie: I don't offer a drawbar....never did.
3. Lie: I never received an order and it would have gone directly to Richard Joyner since I am only his distributor and have no authority to sell wholesale.
4. Lie: oh wait, not a lie, truth, I did call Ron Brown a "son of a bitch" and I still stand by my opinion. You can't call my opinion "slander".
 
Dan Masshardt said:
Alpha - your comments are good except for the one about the attachment method. It uses an mt2 bottle stopper mandrel not screw on.

I have had taper accessories come loose in rare occasion.

I have a Joyner jig and use with the psi screw on stopper mandrel and works well.
Click to expand...

Well, yup ... I will definately agree that I have that piece wrong. However, the attachment method isn't the copy here, its the jig itself.

That being said.. I bought a screw on stopper mandrel YEARS ago and its been partnered with my jig so long I forgot it wasn't the recommended way to attach it.

I went and grabbed my jig for a photo in case anyone wants to know how I attach it.
 

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alphageek said:
Well, yup ... I will definately agree that I have that piece wrong. However, the attachment method isn't the copy here, its the jig itself. That being said.. I bought a screw on stopper mandrel YEARS ago and its been partnered with my jig so long I forgot it wasn't the recommended way to attach it. I went and grabbed my jig for a photo in case anyone wants to know how I attach it.
Click to expand...

Yes. I use the same exact method and it's great.

Agree that it's an accessory not the jig itself either way.
 
This is a sad, but needed thread - MY OPINION ONLY! And I thank the OP for starting this discussion. It also is great that some of the parties involved are stating their case and WE can make our opinions accordingly.

It is about time "we" try to protect "us". As I stated earlier, just because you "can do it" does not mean you "should do it" (being barely legal is not the same as being ethical). And to suggest that some action is "legal", but remain silent about being "ethical" speaks volumes (to me).

In my business, I have far too many unpaid "small" bills owed by parents who left without clearing their balance, and do not respond to polite reminders. Far too small to matter on an individual basis for the cost and time, but folks know that they did wrong... and simply don't care :frown:. No ethics, no morals, no credibility.
 
I have had one of the joyner setups since he first started making them one at a time for us on this site...I think I got #7 .

I hate when ideas are ripped off....But, if he never patented this then he has no right to protect his idea....a lesson that has been learned many times ( and a few that I remember on this site)
With the internet and how fast ideas are spread around the world one MUST patent an idea if they want to protect it.
 
What Ron Brown did MIGHT be legal but even if it is it is not ethical or morally right. While he may never be held legally accountable I do hope that his actions will cause people to to think about the type of business they are supporting when they make their purchases. I can't support someone who would boldly place their name on someone else's invention.
 
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mbroberg said:
What Ron Brown did MIGHT be legal but even if it is it is not ethical or morally right. While he may never be held legally accountable I do hope that his actions will cause people to to think about the type of business they are supporting when they make their purchases. I can't support someone who would boldly place their name on someone else's invention.
Click to expand...


Couldn't have said it better myself. I cannot ethically do business with someone that would so easily take someone else's work and present it as their own...bottom line.
 
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