Responsibility for shipped items

[Smitty37]

This has come up in another thread and it's an interesting topic.

Generally speaking, the vendor is responsible for the product until it is received by the buyer. All major credit cards and Paypal will resolve "did not receive" disputes in favor of the buyer except under very unusual circumstances -- including international shipments. At least at PayPal (and payments processed through PayPal) it won't make any difference that the buyer was offered and refused insurance. The shipper is still going to be on the hook.

So if you are a vendor you need to price the cost of replacement (including insurance) into your overhead or you will occasionally get burned.

That being the case - insurance is for the protection of the shipper - up to $100 is automatic if you use UPS (I think also FedEx but I'm not sure) so many shipments you don't have to worry about it.

USPS insurance costs are outrageous - but - I personally don't buy it. I send everything confirmed delivery which actually reduces the postage if you buy your postage online at the USPS website or through an approved reseller. I have NEVER has a shipment to a USA address lost when I used confirmed delivery which also sort of provides tracking for USA shipments.

I self insure my packages unless they are exceptionally high value. When I do purchase insurance I use a 3rd party provider through my approved postage provider who charges half what USPS charges.

For what it's worth, I doubt that it is ever worth getting in a dispute over a shipment getting lost. Keep in mind that the general rule is that the seller needs the buyer more than the buyer needs the seller. Also, the buyer can spread the word that the seller doesn't deliver - the seller really can't do that, even eBay doesn't let sellers knock non-paying buyers anymore.

 

[BradG]

I am a vendor of telephone recording equipment and ship worldwide. What you say is true in every word. Paypal will rule in the buyers favour nearly every time, and the majority of the time its not even worth disputing with them. i will gladly refund any customers which asks after they have returned the goods, and i cover their return postage too. if the item goes missing in the post i cover that and replace the item once we both agree it should have been received by then. id much rather make a loss of a few pounds, in order to preserve my reputation. Its been dented once in the past after a dispute, and i felt it in my pocket for a good six months.

 

[Haynie]

You speak the truth brother Smitty.

 

[wood128]

USPS Priority Mail now includes tracking info. No need to pay for delivery confirmation. But of course they raised the prices of Priority Mail , including the flat rate boxes. The small flat rate box went from $16.95 to $23.95 for most countries.

 

[Ed McDonnell]

Here's an interesting twist on the topic.

Let's assume the following:

1) UPS loses shipment
2) Vendor eventually agrees to replace lost shipment.
3) Customer, not wanting to wait for UPS because they've already lost a week or two waiting for the vendor to get to the point where they are ready to provide a replacement, offers to drive to vendor to pick up replacement product.
4) It's 90 miles round trip from customer to vendor.

Assuming the vendor agrees to let the customer pick things up (very likely), should the vendor:

A) refund the shipping charges paid on the original lost order
B) refund the shipping charges paid on the original lost order and credit the customer for the shipping charges they won't be paying because the customer is driving 90 miles round trip.
C) refund the shipping charges paid on the original lost order and credit some portion of the shipping charges they won't be paying because the customer is driving 90 miles round trip, but not the full amount.
D) tell the customer how lucky they are to be getting a replacement and not refund anything.

Ed

 

[Ed McDonnell]

USPS Priority Mail now includes tracking info. No need to pay for delivery confirmation. But of course they raised the prices of Priority Mail , including the flat rate boxes. The small flat rate box went from $16.95 to $23.95 for most countries.

Without confirmation, if the delivery is tracked as delivered, but the customer didn't get it (it was stolen before they got home or the delivery was to the wrong address) you still have a ****ed off customer to deal with. A vendor protecting themselves from financial loss on lost shipments is fine if your customers don't have a lot of competitive choices. Doing everything you can to make sure the customer gets the package is the surest way to hang onto customers and avoid financial losses in a very competitive market.

Ed

 

[sbell111]

Here's an interesting twist on the topic.

Let's assume the following:

1) UPS loses shipment
2) Vendor eventually agrees to replace lost shipment.
3) Customer, not wanting to wait for UPS because they've already lost a week or two waiting for the vendor to get to the point where they are ready to provide a replacement, offers to drive to vendor to pick up replacement product.
4) It's 90 miles round trip from customer to vendor.

Assuming the vendor agrees to let the customer pick things up (very likely), should the vendor:

A) refund the shipping charges paid on the original lost order
B) refund the shipping charges paid on the original lost order and credit the customer for the shipping charges they won't be paying because the customer is driving 90 miles round trip.
C) refund the shipping charges paid on the original lost order and credit some portion of the shipping charges they won't be paying because the customer is driving 90 miles round trip, but not the full amount.
D) tell the customer how lucky they are to be getting a replacement and not refund anything.

Ed

I'll go with A.

B&C don't work because the customer wouldn't be paying for the second shipping regardless. D is poor customer service.

 

[knowltoh]

Here's an interesting twist on the topic.

Let's assume the following:

1) UPS loses shipment
2) Vendor eventually agrees to replace lost shipment.
3) Customer, not wanting to wait for UPS because they've already lost a week or two waiting for the vendor to get to the point where they are ready to provide a replacement, offers to drive to vendor to pick up replacement product.
4) It's 90 miles round trip from customer to vendor.

Assuming the vendor agrees to let the customer pick things up (very likely), should the vendor:

A) refund the shipping charges paid on the original lost order
B) refund the shipping charges paid on the original lost order and credit the customer for the shipping charges they won't be paying because the customer is driving 90 miles round trip.
C) refund the shipping charges paid on the original lost order and credit some portion of the shipping charges they won't be paying because the customer is driving 90 miles round trip, but not the full amount.
D) tell the customer how lucky they are to be getting a replacement and not refund anything.

Ed

What, no mileage reimbursement?

 

[18111]

Dumb! I purchased insurance for my last order.

 

[gwilki]

I am a frequent buyer, and a very infrequent seller. I have a lot of sympathy for those who sell and take paypal. The vendor always seem to be "wrong" in the eyes of paypal in the event of a dispute. A buddy of mine has been burned twice when the buyer told paypal that the box was received, but it was empty. Admittedly, this was twice in almost 50 sales, but it still cost my friend quite a bit. He started taking pics of the goods in the box. However, this is not much evidence when, in the mind of Paypal, he could simply have taken the goods out of the box immediately after taking the pic. Insurance in these cases is no help, as the carrier can rightfully say that the package was delivered.

The saying used to be "buyer beware". I believe the tables have turned now.

 

[Ed McDonnell]

Sadly, sellers have always had to deal with criminals. Switching from Bricks and Mortar to the web just means a different type of criminal. Scam artists instead of shoplifters and armed gunmen.

Allowance for losses is just one more thing that needs to be built into prices.

In your friends case, it could have been a legitimate complaint from the customers. They recently caught a UPS warehouse worker in the Keys helping themselves to the contents of various shipments and then resealing the package. When they arrested her, she was munching on a box of cookies she had just pulled out of somebody's package.

Ed

Who wonders if any of his local UPS employees are making pens out of PR.....

 

[mrcook4570]

Insurance companies are in business to make money, not give it away. In the thousands of packages that I have both shipped and received, I can think of only three cases that involved either damage or missing items. One I received damaged, one I shipped that was damaged, and one that was empty when received (this one was international so I suspect customs decided to 'reward' himself). As much as we sometimes complain about the shipping companies, overall, I think they do a very good job at least as far as % error is concerned.

Anyway, my point about insurance is that it will be MUCH cheaper to just roll the dice and not pay for any extra insurance. If a problem should arise, the savings in insurance costs will more than cover it.

 

[Smitty37]

USPS Priority Mail now includes tracking info. No need to pay for delivery confirmation. But of course they raised the prices of Priority Mail , including the flat rate boxes. The small flat rate box went from $16.95 to $23.95 for most countries.

It's cheaper to buy postage on line or from approved resellers if you select delivery confirmation.

 

[Smitty37]

Insurance companies are in business to make money, not give it away. In the thousands of packages that I have both shipped and received, I can think of only three cases that involved either damage or missing items. One I received damaged, one I shipped that was damaged, and one that was empty when received (this one was international so I suspect customs decided to 'reward' himself). As much as we sometimes complain about the shipping companies, overall, I think they do a very good job at least as far as % error is concerned.

Anyway, my point about insurance is that it will be MUCH cheaper to just roll the dice and not pay for any extra insurance. If a problem should arise, the savings in insurance costs will more than cover it.

In most cases I agree and I do just that. But --- Shipping to some locations involves a couple of orders of magnitude more risk of loss than others and if you send a replacement order you have the same high risk on it. In those cases I do insure.

 

[MesquiteMan]

Try getting USPS to pay an insurance claim on international shipments sometime! I shipped 5 gallons of Cactus Juice to Canada one time and it never showed up. It was not confiscated by customs, it just disappeared. It did make it into Canada but never made it to the customer. I opened a trace on it through USPS and after the 23 days you have to wait, I was told it simply disappeared. I asked about insurance since I had paid for it and they said they would have to mail me the forms that they were not available online. I asked them to do so and after 10 days and not receiving them, I called back. They said they sent them out and I should have received them but they would send them again. Ten days later, still no form so I called and they "sent" them a third time. To this day over 1 year later, I have never received the forms. I called them and they said they could not do anything until I filled out the forms that they basically refused to send! THAT was an EXPENSIVE loss since I had to re-ship and pay for postage all over again. Never have received a successful USPS insurance settlement so I stopped insuring and stopped using them for anything but international and small flat rate.

I now ship all my packages via UPS. I have negotiated rates and and their prices are lower than USPS, sometimes by a significant amount. As soon as I print a label, as long as it is before 4 pm, they are alerted and will show up the same day for the pickup. I no longer have to do a request for pickup like I did with USPS. I have also actually had them pay every claim I have had to make, even before I started double boxing my chambers. Their insurance process is simple with an online form and they cut me a check within a few days. Not to mention, their tracking is FAR FAR superior.

 

[Smitty37]

Try getting USPS to pay an insurance claim on international shipments sometime! I shipped 5 gallons of Cactus Juice to Canada one time and it never showed up. It was not confiscated by customs, it just disappeared. It did make it into Canada but never made it to the customer. I opened a trace on it through USPS and after the 23 days you have to wait, I was told it simply disappeared. I asked about insurance since I had paid for it and they said they would have to mail me the forms that they were not available online. I asked them to do so and after 10 days and not receiving them, I called back. They said they sent them out and I should have received them but they would send them again. Ten days later, still no form so I called and they "sent" them a third time. To this day over 1 year later, I have never received the forms. I called them and they said they could not do anything until I filled out the forms that they basically refused to send! THAT was an EXPENSIVE loss since I had to re-ship and pay for postage all over again. Never have received a successful USPS insurance settlement so I stopped insuring and stopped using them for anything but international and small flat rate.

I now ship all my packages via UPS. I have negotiated rates and and their prices are lower than USPS, sometimes by a significant amount. As soon as I print a label, as long as it is before 4 pm, they are alerted and will show up the same day for the pickup. I no longer have to do a request for pickup like I did with USPS. I have also actually had them pay every claim I have had to make, even before I started double boxing my chambers. Their insurance process is simple with an online form and they cut me a check within a few days. Not to mention, their tracking is FAR FAR superior.

I don't insure with USPS either...I use Endicia insurance and the underwriter is U-Pic and my experience with them is good.

 

[Smitty37]

Here's an interesting twist on the topic.

Let's assume the following:

1) UPS loses shipment
2) Vendor eventually agrees to replace lost shipment.
3) Customer, not wanting to wait for UPS because they've already lost a week or two waiting for the vendor to get to the point where they are ready to provide a replacement, offers to drive to vendor to pick up replacement product.
4) It's 90 miles round trip from customer to vendor.

Assuming the vendor agrees to let the customer pick things up (very likely), should the vendor:

A) refund the shipping charges paid on the original lost order
B) refund the shipping charges paid on the original lost order and credit the customer for the shipping charges they won't be paying because the customer is driving 90 miles round trip.
C) refund the shipping charges paid on the original lost order and credit some portion of the shipping charges they won't be paying because the customer is driving 90 miles round trip, but not the full amount.
D) tell the customer how lucky they are to be getting a replacement and not refund anything.

Ed

I'm not sure about UPS but my guess is that their insurance payment will not cover the shipping charge so the seller won't recover shipping on the original lost order so A is out for me.

Crediting the customer for charges he won't be paying doesn't make any sense to me so B is out for me.

The customer is getting a replacement order for the original and not paying anything for it so why refund anything about the original order. So C is out for me.

The choice and decision to drive 90 miles was made by the customer for the customer's convenience. Hence I would not offer any refund for shipping he would not have paid to begin with. Hence D is the choice but I would omit the part about telling the customer how lucky they are to be getting a replacement

 

[NewLondon88]

Here's an interesting twist on the topic.

Let's assume the following:

1) UPS loses shipment
2) Vendor eventually agrees to replace lost shipment.
3) Customer, not wanting to wait for UPS because they've already lost a week or two waiting for the vendor to get to the point where they are ready to provide a replacement, offers to drive to vendor to pick up replacement product.
4) It's 90 miles round trip from customer to vendor.

Assuming the vendor agrees to let the customer pick things up (very likely), should the vendor:

A) refund the shipping charges paid on the original lost order
B) refund the shipping charges paid on the original lost order and credit the customer for the shipping charges they won't be paying because the customer is driving 90 miles round trip.
C) refund the shipping charges paid on the original lost order and credit some portion of the shipping charges they won't be paying because the customer is driving 90 miles round trip, but not the full amount.
D) tell the customer how lucky they are to be getting a replacement and not refund anything.

Ed

I'm not sure about UPS but my guess is that their insurance payment will not cover the shipping charge

They absolutely will. If nothing else, they refund the shipping.
They took your money to provide a service. (ship pkg from point A to B)
they did not provide that service. They refund the shipping.

Curtis makes a good point about double boxing, too. If you ever have
to file a claim for damage, having the item double boxed almost always
makes the claim get approved. (provided the internal packaging isn't
grossly inadequate .. .ie newspaper, shredded paper, kitty litter)
And if UPS does the packaging themselves, claims are paid. Period.

 

[Ed McDonnell]

I'm not sure about UPS but my guess is that their insurance payment will not cover the shipping charge so the seller won't recover shipping on the original lost order so A is out for me.

Crediting the customer for charges he won't be paying doesn't make any sense to me so B is out for me.

The customer is getting a replacement order for the original and not paying anything for it so why refund anything about the original order. So C is out for me.

The choice and decision to drive 90 miles was made by the customer for the customer's convenience. Hence I would not offer any refund for shipping he would not have paid to begin with. Hence D is the choice but I would omit the part about telling the customer how lucky they are to be getting a replacement

Interesting perspective Smitty. Here's how I look at it.

B and C are not realistic scenarios, but given the state of math education these days, I can find people who think that not only is B fair, but that the customer is still losing money on the deal. Go figure.

A seems the fairest to me. Whether UPS refunds the shipping costs on the lost shipment or not, it's a sunk cost. If the vendor has to ship a replacement they will be paying new shipping costs. If the customer picks it up, they don't pay additional shipping costs.

With D, the customer pays the shipping costs on the lost shipment and then pays the cost (about the same as the shipping costs) in gas to drive and get the replacement. That's two shipping costs paid by the customer. Hardly seems fair to me.

My bottom line is A is an acceptable deal. Customer gets the product sooner (without the risk of another lost shipment) and the vendor doesn't have to pay additional shipping, and instead credits the customer. Either way it's the same outcome for the vendor and the customer is happy. Win win.

With D, the vendor saves money by not paying additional shipping costs, but the customer has now paid double shipping costs. And the customer is probably pretty ****ed off as well. And realistically, if D is the best the vendor can offer, then the customer would be crazy to not just tell them to ship it and let them pay the additional shipping charge. A lose lose proposition.

Maybe it depends on whether you have a customer or vendor hat on when you are answering this one.

Ed

 

[MesquiteMan]

UPS will definitely refund the shipping on the lost or damaged order. They will even refund it if it was delivered with a portion of the order damaged. For damaged shipments, you have to give an invoice for what was damaged including shipping and they will pay it no questions asked most of the time. Occasionally they will want to inspect the package but if it is packed according to their guidelines, it will be paid no problem.

 

[Smitty37]

I'm not sure about UPS but my guess is that their insurance payment will not cover the shipping charge so the seller won't recover shipping on the original lost order so A is out for me.

Crediting the customer for charges he won't be paying doesn't make any sense to me so B is out for me.

The customer is getting a replacement order for the original and not paying anything for it so why refund anything about the original order. So C is out for me.

The choice and decision to drive 90 miles was made by the customer for the customer's convenience. Hence I would not offer any refund for shipping he would not have paid to begin with. Hence D is the choice but I would omit the part about telling the customer how lucky they are to be getting a replacement

Interesting perspective Smitty. Here's how I look at it.

B and C are not realistic scenarios, but given the state of math education these days, I can find people who think that not only is B fair, but that the customer is still losing money on the deal. Go figure.

A seems the fairest to me. Whether UPS refunds the shipping costs on the lost shipment or not, it's a sunk cost. If the vendor has to ship a replacement they will be paying new shipping costs. If the customer picks it up, they don't pay additional shipping costs.

With D, the customer pays the shipping costs on the lost shipment and then pays the cost (about the same as the shipping costs) in gas to drive and get the replacement. That's two shipping costs paid by the customer. Hardly seems fair to me.

My bottom line is A is an acceptable deal. Customer gets the product sooner (without the risk of another lost shipment) and the vendor doesn't have to pay additional shipping, and instead credits the customer. Either way it's the same outcome for the vendor and the customer is happy. Win win.

With D, the vendor saves money by not paying additional shipping costs, but the customer has now paid double shipping costs. And the customer is probably pretty ****ed off as well. And realistically, if D is the best the vendor can offer, then the customer would be crazy to not just tell them to ship it and let them pay the additional shipping charge. A lose lose proposition.

Maybe it depends on whether you have a customer or vendor hat on when you are answering this one.

Ed

Actually I would rather reship than have someone come to my house to pick it up.