Quick Vent

[mbroberg]

Is it just me, or is anyone else bothered by edstreet's continual nitpicking of everything that is posted.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f243/2014-pen-marketing-photo-contest-118863/#post1624937

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f228/about-entry-pictures-119088/#post1624866

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f22...t-sponsored-exotic-blanks-118978/#post1624678

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f241/featured-pen-contest-118437/#post1623471


I'm not too far awary from sending him a PM that I will probably, eventually, regret sending.

 

[mredburn]

Its not just you.

 

[maxwell_smart007]

He's the one person I wish I could put on ignore - but alas, being a mod, that's impossible!

 

[lyonsacc]

Yes, I just replied to one of his comments. I probably shouldn't have . . .

 

[Buzzzz4]

Yes

 

[toddlajoie]

Yea, I saw his nitpick in Pen Marketing, typed a response, then closed it out with out posting and took a walk (actually, went to do some work at the day-job) Spent that time thinking of a positive way to respond (not sure I'm 100% there yet, maybe 75%...) but I had thought it was just me... Thanks for letting me know that I'm not alone... Some of his other posts and behavior have rubbed me wrong, so I'm trying hard not to react to the comments based on where they are coming from...

May not be able to get a solid response to that until tonight when I have the time to type it out and read it...

 

[Displaced Canadian]

Not just you. I also have more than once typed a response and deleted it. We have a customer like this at work. I keep telling the guys to not react because that is exactly what he wants.

 

[toddlajoie]

Just got a PM from him asking me to respond to his questions...

 

[mbroberg]

Just got a PM from him asking me to respond to his questions...

Forward the PM to me. I will take care of it.

 

[Dalecamino]

I am quite proud of myself for not posting a comment in any of his threads :biggrin:

Skiprat did that FOR me. I had a feeling he was going to post some sort of photo in the Photo thread and, he did. NO, it's not just you.

 

[toddlajoie]

Skiprat did that FOR me.

Yea, I'm REALLLLLLY fighting the urge to hit the "Like" button on Skip's post, but I think that would look wrong...

Mike, I sent you a PM with the reply to his request that I typed out for a second set of eyes... I'm tempted to simply post:

No clarifications of any misunderstanding of the rules may be submitted by anyone who does not meet the contest requirements:

To enter, you must be a registered member of IAP with your First and Last Name and home town and state in your profile.

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[mbroberg]

I agree. However, we amended the Activity Rules last July and all that is actually needed is full first and last name. He does not have that in his profile however, I'm pretty sure his name is Ed Street. And, while I still encourage compliance with that rule during the Bash by having it posted in all the fules I admit to cutting people a little slack during the Bash because of the use of Entry Forms which require said information at the time of entry. So as much as I would like to, I won't go there with Ed.

 

[mbroberg]

Give me some suggestions as to what to do about Ed Street. I have written and deleted several responses to his disruptive posts. He is polluting the Bash with his BS and I need it to stop!:frown:

 

[maxwell_smart007]

He's just looking for a response - he's trolling for a violent Bash explosion...

We'd only be fanning the fire if we respond publicly to his crap.

Just ignore him - if it gets to be a problem, PM Jeff and have him talk to Ed.

 

[Displaced Canadian]

I have to agree with Andrew. You fight with a pig you both get dirty but the pig is having fun.
Would there be some way to tell him to can it by saying if he doesn't like the way a contest is being run to ask to run it the next year? Or to remind him that if only one person out of the whole group has an issue it isn't realistic to change the rules for one person. If he isn't going to enter what does it matter to him either way.

 

[mredburn]

How about a thick rope and a tall oak tree? Worked in the south for years.

 

[toddlajoie]

OK, so I was just about to post a reply to his follow up after I clarified the rules and clamped them down more than I wanted to.

I'm going to post it here to see if anyone has an opinion or thinks I'm fighting the pig... I see-sawed back and forth between irritated, pissy, and frustrated the entire time I typed it, and at times, I think they all came out...

Here's the link to the thread in case you haven't read already...

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f243/2014-pen-marketing-photo-contest-118863/

Ed, I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not going to hire one to go over the rules for a contest on an online forum. I'm sorry for my lack of ability to clearly account for every possible interpretation of the rules as they are.

I included this line:

We do not want the images to be identifiable as the entrant, by name, logo, etc.

at the time as it seemed like the easiest, shortest, and clearest way to state that we do not want anything in the photo to scream out the identity of the photographer. I realize very well that this is a limiting factor in what you can do with the photo, but it is pretty clear if you look around, that there are MANY examples of fantastic Marketing Photos that do not include any identifiable marks (if you don't trust me, look through Exotic's Guest Artist Section and note how often there is something IN THE PHOTO identifying anything at all, let alone the guest artist. Maybe you can see the name stamped on the underside of the clips, but I cannot...)

Based on the original intent of the rules, the photos in your linked threads of Toni's blanks with the pouches would certainly have qualified, if you were the photographer, They would not have qualified if Toni was the photographer. Based on the revisions, they do not qualify for either of you. The image on Exotics would not qualify for a number of reasons...

The photos at the end of the contest will be voted on by the general IAP community, as that was a key piece of feedback we got from last year's bash. As such, I will have no say on what people think when they cast their votes. The thread will state (as clearly as I am able) the goals of the contest, but there is not going to be any way to list specific intentions or desired use of the photos. Photos will be judged as they stand. You are free to leave space for things to be added at a later time, but I cannot guarantee that the general population will understand that. I very much do not want this to be a "show off your pen" contest, and have been actively pushing people to do more with staging sets and scenery, but it has to be done within the restrictions of the contest.

This is a Marketing Photography contest, not a Marketing Contest, not a Advertisement Campaign Contest. Just Photos, Photos alone, and it's supposed to be fun.

I think we should certainly put him in charge of all contest rules next year...

 

[mredburn]

No we should not because there will be a 27 page set of rules for each contest with all exceptions and situations defined and the responses. I used to run a gun club that hosted all sorts of competitions, rifle, pistol, shotgun, all disciplines. We had several people like Ed. Its not enough to have the "spirit of the rule" they need strict interpretation. " do I have to have both feet on the ground?" What if I do this, what if I do that. Ed is very detail oriented. He just seems to do it to be baiting people into responding so he can argue with them.

 

[ed4copies]

Let me start by saying, EdStreet and I met for the first time in Virginia at last year's MAPG. We were NOT instant friends. As everyone probably knows, Exotics has had a business relationship with Toni Ransfield for several years. We know Toni pretty well and she was also at that event. But we were much too busy to spend any quantity of time with Toni or Ed. In fact, we spent very little time with Jeff or Mike Broberg, either. So, we left Virginia not knowing EdStreet.

Since then, it is no secret that EdStreet has been a big promoter of Toni. To some, this is the only side of Ed they choose to see. Yet, he has helped Roy with his website, "plugged" Robotacion for his products and created some maxi photos that could yield information that will force some of the industry participants to "come clean" on the sources of their products.

I type all of this to put forward my prejudice: I have come to LIKE EdStreet. I believe he has shown many talents that others in the IAP could learn from. I KNOW Dawn is working on her photography skills and Ed has been a willing teacher---because she ASKED.

So, I would merely suggest to those who have spent dozens or hundreds of hours on this bash---try not to take his questions personally. He has asked me the same questions---he is honestly interested in entering contests and he believes Toni's blanks belong in "advanced". I contend that they will get "killed" in that arena, because the "IAP member body" perceives kitless as the be-all and end-all. The pens that will win advanced will not be kits.

So, in my judgement a "Toni blank" would be best placed in intermediate, where the kit is required. Certainly, this blank is stunning---but I suspect there will be newer designs shown, so even Toni will have to "break the mold" of roses.

Probably, too much information.

But I do implore you to step away from the predisposition that Ed is nothing but a trouble-maker. He does not write with diplomacy---but try reading WHAT he says, not HOW he says it. There is much to be learned from his words and he DOES understand the English language----a talent that is "seriously on the decline" as Ed would say.

So, you all have done a lot of work on the bash-----been there, done that. I understand that you don't need "crap". But, when you can, step back and ask yourself if there MAY be a real reason someone could be confused.

"Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers>>>>>>>>>"

Thanks for reading,
EdB
lots of IAP titles, but who really cares??

 

[mredburn]

I would get rid of your first statement. You could amend your quote to read
"We do not want the images to be identifiable as to the entrant, by any name, or logo of the entrant in the picture."

The rest of it is ok

 

[MesquiteMan]

Everyone, please re-read Ed's post above. He nailed it spot on and is pretty much what I would type.

I have had issues with Ed Street. I ended up writing him a long PM. He replied. We better understood each other afterwards. Since then, I have spoke with him on the phone numerous times. He is not the jackass some make him out to be. He diplomacy ABSOLUTELY SUCKS! I told him that and he agreed. He says he is working on that. He really does mean well in most of the posts he makes. If he is rubbing you wrong, just ignore him. If he is not breaking a rule, then he has a right to post what he wants, even if someone else does not like it or the way he says it.

 

[mbroberg]

Ed and Curtis. Thanks for the perspectives. Having had a good nights sleep I am not quite as on edge as I was last night. If EdStreet is an acquired taste, I have not acquired it yet. He rubs me the wrong way. I'll try to take what he has to say with an extra grain of salt.

 

[ed4copies]

Everyone, please re-read Ed's post above. He nailed it spot on and is pretty much what I would type.

I have had issues with Ed Street. I ended up writing him a long PM. He replied. We better understood each other afterwards. Since then, I have spoke with him on the phone numerous times. He is not the jackass some make him out to be. He diplomacy ABSOLUTELY SUCKS! I told him that and he agreed. He says he is working on that. He really does mean well in most of the posts he makes. If he is rubbing you wrong, just ignore him. If he is not breaking a rule, then he has a right to post what he wants, even if someone else does not like it or the way he says it.

Actually, as the contest chairs work to make entries anonymous, they are protecting the interest of a guy like EdStreet. Yet, he is perfectly happy to let his work be judged by IAP members who he knows don't particularly LIKE him, but he believes his work will be judged on its merits. (I think he grossly overestimates the voting public---their prejudices will "strongly outweigh" their judgement of quality).

So, he will probably submit a couple entries, done in the manner he believes is correct. IF they are "thrown out of" the contests, we will publish them on Exotics and our FaceBook webpage. I believe his work has merit and should be seen. If there is no room for it in the IAP contests, so be it.

It will get an audience.

Amazing with 20 some contests, have we eliminated some of our most prominent artists, who don't happen to turn? Or, should they just quietly submit work, as Marla has done, that is likely turned by a friend?
Ed deserves the same respect I would give any of you.

 

[ed4copies]

Ed and Curtis. Thanks for the perspectives. Having had a good nights sleep I am not quite as on edge as I was last night. If EdStreet is an acquired taste, I have not acquired it yet. He rubs me the wrong way. I'll try to take what he has to say with an extra grain of salt.

Good luck with your procedure Mike!!

You have spent an incredible amount of time making this bash enjoyable for the membership and you deserve our thanks and, when you are tired and your mind has larger concerns, you deserve our understanding. NONE of this is meant to demean any thing you, or any of the rest of the bash team have said or done!!!

You are a great leader for the bash----keep it up!!! "Good health to you, my friend"!!!

EdB

 

[toddlajoie]

Amazing with 20 some contests, have we eliminated some of our most prominent artists, who don't happen to turn? Or, should they just quietly submit work, as Marla has done, that is likely turned by a friend?

Nothing in the Photography Contest Rules requires it to be a pen you created, or even a turned pen.

 

[mbroberg]

Thanks Ed B.

Ed S. is just one of those people who cannot reconcile reality with his perception of what reality should be.

I guess that I just cannot understand what is so difficult about adhering to a set of contest rules. My impression is that Ed S. is perplexed over the fact that the Pen Marketing Photo Contest does not rise to the level of marketing that he practices. Why does it have too? Submit photos that comply with the rules of the contest and there will be no problem. Submit photos that reflect what he thinks the rules should be and they will be disqualified.

 

[maxwell_smart007]

I still respectfully disagree with the above - I think he's a rabblerouser looking to cause trouble, and basks in the attention that occurs when people linguistically wrestle with him in the open forum....

Much of this is likely clouded by some of the conversations I've had with him via PM, regarding mod actions.

That being said, I'm content to ignore him...

 

[Brooks803]

I've had my dealings with Ed Street as well. Mostly on Facebook. We've had our share of arguments, but also we have seen eye to eye on some subjects. I don't disagree with some people assessment of him being a PITA, but I have also encountered the "nicer" version of Ed.

I'm also glad this is being talked about bc I've been trying to think up the best way to breach a question that deals with Ed S.

Like Ed Brown mentioned, he's been advocating that Toni's work belongs in the advanced contests over any other. I disagreed and said I personally think it should go in the intermediate bc most people are going to think custom/kitless when it comes to the advanced contest. I also reminded him that I couldn't really get into the conversation much since I'm running the contest. I didn't want to give any real advice, etc. He agreed and we changed subjects. However, he did send me a photo of some dragon scale pens he had just finished made with toni's blanks and I got the feeling that he's wanting Toni to be the one entering the contest, not himself. My question is, and Ed B touched on the subject, we all can assume Ed S. will be taking the photos of any of Toni's entries, but how do we know Toni was the one that actually did the work? Not just the blank, but any finishing and assembly?

I for one am not really concerned until an entry is actually made. At that time I'd ask any question on who did what. I just wanted to get every one else's opinion of how far do we really need to take things? It seems like Ed has made a target of himself for us right now, but is he the only person we're worried about when it really comes down to contest entries and their validity/rule following?

 

[mredburn]

This is an issue separate of Ed S. We are on the honor system when we submit an entry. Unless something really presents itself as hard evidence we need to take in on faith that the pen submitted is made by the person submitting it.

 

[mbroberg]

I agree with Mike R. How do we know anyone completed, photographed and submitted their own work? In the Advanced Contest is there any rule that prohibits someone other than the pen maker to take the photo?

Is Ed S. saying that one would need to be "Advanced" in order to turn polymer clay?

 

[ed4copies]

I agree with Mike R. How do we know anyone completed, photographed and submitted their own work? In the Advanced Contest is there any rule that prohibits someone other than the pen maker to take the photo?

Is Ed S. saying that one would need to be "Advanced" in order to turn polymer clay?

I BELIEVE from our conversations that his point is that TONI is advanced in her polyclay techniques, so the product is "advanced".

 

[ed4copies]

The question of Ed turning (or finishing and assembling) as well as photographing Toni's blanks is another question he has asked. Frankly, I don't know the answer, as I have told him.

But, if he ASKS the question, will it be perceived as more "nitpicking"? And thus the answer is more likely to be to interpret the rules against his entry as was done above.

Certainly seems a valid concern.

 

[mbroberg]

Toni IS advanced (IMHO) in her polyclay techniques. But to even consider anyone and everyone who uses Toni's polyclay advanced makes no sense. Or is he talking only about Toni? If Toni makes a blank and puts it on a kit pen, should be it be considered advanced?

 

[Displaced Canadian]

I agree with Mike. This is one of those things when judging you have to separate what is a nice blank and what is a well made pen.

 

[mbroberg]

The question of Ed turning (or finishing and assembling) as well as photographing Toni's blanks is another question he has asked. Frankly, I don't know the answer, as I have told him.

But, if he ASKS the question, will it be perceived as more "nitpicking"? And thus the answer is more likely to be to interpret the rules against his entry as was done above.

Certainly seems a valid concern.

What is the question / valid concern? I guess I am incredibly slow. None of this is all that complicated. Of all our active members how many have the level of difficulty that Ed has with the issues he raises. If Ed, I, or anyone else turns, finishes and assembles a pen using one of Toni's blanks then what has happened is Ed, I or someone else made a pen using one of Toni's blanks. Since these are PEN contests, not BLANK contests we are talking about I can't imagine what the question would be. Pens entered in a pen contest must be turned by the person entering the pen. What am I not seeing here?

If I turn a pen using one of Jonathon's blanks is my pen going to be judged on how well I turned, finished or assembled the pen or is it going to be judged on the quality and WOW factor of Jonathon's blank? Seriously, I guess either I have an over abundance of common sense or he has none because as I said, this is really not complicated.

 

[maxwell_smart007]

Toni IS advanced (IMHO) in her polyclay techniques. But to even consider anyone and everyone who uses Toni's polyclay advanced makes no sense. Or is he talking only about Toni? If Toni makes a blank and puts it on a kit pen, should be it be considered advanced?

Toni is advanced - those turning Toni's blanks and adding to a kit are not.

 

[ed4copies]

The question of Ed turning (or finishing and assembling) as well as photographing Toni's blanks is another question he has asked. Frankly, I don't know the answer, as I have told him.

But, if he ASKS the question, will it be perceived as more "nitpicking"? And thus the answer is more likely to be to interpret the rules against his entry as was done above.

Certainly seems a valid concern.

What is the question / valid concern? I guess I am incredibly slow. None of this is all that complicated. Of all our active members how many have the level of difficulty that Ed has with the issues he raises. If Ed, I, or anyone else turns, finishes and assembles a pen using one of Toni's blanks then what has happened is Ed, I or someone else made a pen using one of Toni's blanks. Since these are PEN contests, not BLANK contests we are talking about I can't imagine what the question would be. Pens entered in a pen contest must be turned by the person entering the pen. What am I not seeing here?

If I turn a pen using one of Jonathon's blanks is my pen going to be judged on how well I turned, finished or assembled the pen or is it going to be judged on the quality and WOW factor of Jonathon's blank? Seriously, I guess either I have an over abundance of common sense or he has none because as I said, this is really not complicated.

I have said the same thing about the word "Marketing", but it turns out I was wrong. Seemed intuitively obvious that if you are marketing you can show a brand, but other concerns trumped what was obvious to me.

So if Ed enters a pen using one of Toni's blanks, in the Intermediate or the Advanced, it is HIS decision where it belongs?? And using Toni's blanks is definitely within the rules??

I will be happy to advise him of that, just want to be certain I am correct---as my last advice was dead wrong.

 

[mbroberg]

Yes. HE should enter the contest that HE believes best reflects HIS pen turning / pen making ability. The source, quality, complexity of the blank he uses really has nothing to do with that decision. It is what HE does with the blank that is the point of the contest.

 

[ed4copies]

Then, continuing that logic, there is no contest that Toni could enter, since she is NOT a penmaker. (That makes sense to me---Just want to confirm BEFORE I talk with Ed).

Yet, her blanks CAN be subject matter for Ed to enter a photo contest, as long as he does not have any identifying text in the picture. (Which does NOT make sense to me, since everyone here knows Toni's roses---but I yield to the chairman's right to make a decision).

 

[ed4copies]

If we look at the published criteria for selection to the finals of the Advanced contest, we find this:

Finalists will be chosen based on
Originality of design

Workmanship- The Overall fit and finish. It should be flawless.

Use of material - Composition and originality.

Over all looks – We want the most beautiful pens.

Apparent writing comfort.- Does the pen look comfortable for writing.

Durability- How well does it look like it will hold up to use


But, since we are saying the blank is secondary and not part of the judging, how will we decide on a "beautiful" pen? Is this really meant to say the design of the pen is beautiful--since we anticipate mostly kitless---the "lines" of the pen are pleasing??

Words have meaning----but that meaning is open to interpretation. If you are an "Unpopular member" or "pain in the a$$", you may be well advised to try to know the interpretation BEFORE you enter to avoid being kicked out.

Kind of interesting when viewed from another perspective, isn't it?

FWIW,
Ed