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jttheclockman

jttheclockman

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Feb 22, 2005
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NJ, USA.
Here is one of those quick stories that I am sure the elder members here and probably even younger ones will shake their heads at. My brother brought his pickup into dealer to get work done on it. he knows the head mechanic so they were talking in the shop. My brother asked Jason why don't you guys hire more mechanics? You are over stretched. Jason's answer was we do and fire them just as fast. Either they do not know what they are doing or just do not show up every day. case in point. As they were talking a young mechanic came up to the boss to ask what his assignment was. Jason asked him where were you yesterday? The kids answer was I JUST DID NOT FEEL IT YESTERDAY. My brother told me that story and said to him could you imagine when we started out and were still living under our parents roof and my Dad asks why either one of us was not going to work today and we used that line. My rear end would still be hurting today.:oops:

Just a different time. I have told Jason a few times we need to bring back Vocational schools to their fullest. Today there are so many good paying jobs if you have a skill and no better way than to learn in a Vocational school. I did it and my brother did it and then we went on to join the electrical union and served 5 year apprenticeships but the schooling and hands on training is so valuable and the end product is rewarding as well as filling a need in the working field. I am not putting down colleges but not everyone is cut out to go that route and can afford that. I know my parents would never had been able to send us to a college that had a huge fee. Just would not have happened. I am so glad I took the path I did and know my Dad was proud. he too went to Vocs as a woodworker.
 
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Couldn't agree more. There's a Vocational Tech school in the town where I live, it serves two or three neighbouring towns also for those who choose to go that route instead of community college or university. In my previous workplace, my colleague was the product of a Voc - which he followed up by getting a degree in Graphic Design at Mass College of Art. The fact that he rose through the ranks to IT Director shows there was no snobbery at that company. (Lot's of other faults, but not snobbery!)

I know of 3 others within a 20 mile radius - and this is eastern Massachusetts. All of the vocs I know of are within 25 miles of Harvard U, Tufts U, Boston U, Boston College, Northeastern U, Brandeis U, Wellesley College.

The landscape might not be as bleak as you think, if this "center of academic excellence" also has space for vocational techs. I'm hopeful.
 
It's a different era. We use to have woodworking, mechanics class and welding in high school. Those classes hardly exist anymore in schools. We have 7 yr old twin g-babies in elementary school doing most their work on ipads. Our 28 yr old daughter couldn't even tell time on an analog clock after she graduated high school. Our schools have taken out common sense training and replaced it with computers doing the thinking for them. We've replaced discipline with sensitivity training. Time outs are now "comfort zones". Masculinity is being replaced with "Feeling Expression ". Quality has been replaced with quantity. Our generation of completing a job with a feeling of satisfaction no longer exists. The workforce for hard workers is slowly being depleted and replaced with people with no ambition who only want success handed to them. The "Ladder to Success " has been replaced with a "Podium for Attention".
 
bsshog40 said:
It's a different era. We use to have woodworking, mechanics class and welding in high school. Those classes hardly exist anymore in schools. We have 7 yr old twin g-babies in elementary school doing most their work on ipads. Our 28 yr old daughter couldn't even tell time on an analog clock after she graduated high school. Our schools have taken out common sense training and replaced it with computers doing the thinking for them. We've replaced discipline with sensitivity training. Time outs are now "comfort zones". Masculinity is being replaced with "Feeling Expression ". Quality has been replaced with quantity. Our generation of completing a job with a feeling of satisfaction no longer exists. The workforce for hard workers is slowly being depleted and replaced with people with no ambition who only want success handed to them. The "Ladder to Success " has been replaced with a "Podium for Attention".
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Well Said!!!
 
I see it at work too. The younger generation just doesn't have the work ethic of the generation I belong to. I don't know if it's a Michigan thing or not but now that FMLA time off has become a law, they use it as a free day off even though it's unpaid. One person where I work, hit a deer on their way to work and now claims they have PTSD from it. They claim it for FMLA and take a day off whenever they like and cannot be questioned about it. Funny thing though it only happens on Fridays.
 
1. The county high school has an auto repair and body repair shop. Kids can make more money (they think) doing computer games or IT stuff. One U. Texas student made a million dollars one year working out of his dorm room designing software. One vo-tech teacher said kids, read that as guys, would take the class so they could work on their own cars and never look for a job.
2. One disability judge rubber stamped applications rather than take time to read them.
3. KenB259, did anyone ask how the deer coped with the accident?
 
Yeah, attendance is the most common thing people get fired for at my job.

As far as trade/vocational schools, I think people should take full advantage of them. Also, with an apprenticeship you actually get paid to learn instead of racking up tens of thousands worth of tuition debt for a degree when you probably won't even work in that field anyway.
 
Seen it more than once at the hardware story I work at. In fact, one kid even admitted he was only there to get a pay check.
I agree that not everyone is cut out for a college degree. Seen it more than once where someone gets a degree in something and then decides it not what they want to do after all.
In my biased opinion, I think the only thing better than vocational school (which you have to pay for in many cases) is to join the military. I can't speak for all branches, but my son joined the Coast Guard and will retire in about 2 more years with a lifetime pension at 41 years old. There are many areas one can choose to go into. He chose machinery tech and has received training in diesel engine repair, small engines repair, HVAC, and water purification to name a few. He is also trained in some areas of law enforcement, self defense, and is a marksman. All this while being paid and traveling the country (at no cost to him) from the Gulf of Mexico, Atlantic coast, Pacific coast and Tennessee valley. He has also been on joint training missions in the Caribbean and Central America and traveled the Panama Canal twice to the western Pacific and Costa Rica.
 
I think back to my Fathers generation ( the great generation)....they stepped up and saved the world in a two front war, and the women and men not qualified for because of age or physical well being went to work supplying the fighting force. I am sorry, I think it is my generation that messed up this current generation....we allowed our children to just participate, and give out participation awards, and cuddled them in our arms when they got beat in a competition when they were allowed to compete, and when they stubbed their toes sent them to a specialist instead of rubbing some dirt on it and sending them back in. It's no wonder we have an entire generation of "I'm just not feeling it" as they refuse to work". I have deep fears as China is gearing up for world dominance, because this is not the generation that can save us.
Rant over....
 
Yes some place along the way we lost the WAY. We are now relying on this younger generation to take us into the beyond and save this planet. I am not going to see it so let me know how it went when we meet again. I am also sure many of us can list the odd jobs we did as we grew up to make a few dollars to go to the movies. The amount of pay of our first jobs compared to what they get as starting salary now. yes prices are higher but this was the case when we grew up as well. We let that all happen and continue to. Until we get leaders that know and understand what we face and not just line pockets of the rich we will be spinning wheels for a long time. Look at the fiascal of the electric cars now. The put the cart before the horse and we will pay dearly for this. Jobs, there are plenty of jobs out there. people just need to want to take them and have that sense of pride instead of taking handouts. Kids being coddled today does not help anyone in the long run. They do not know how to fight out of that foxhole. A whole different generation.
 
I could not agree more with the previous posts. However, one thing that has not been talked about is the relative stability of jobs in the trades, providing one show up and works hard. It seems there is always going to be a need for electricians, plumbers, and auto mechanics just to name a few. That may not always be the case in other fields that require a college education. Let me illustrate with my own experience. In 1968 I graduated with an MS in chemistry. While working in the lab I pursued an MBA at night. I worked for two major companies--Rohm and Haas and Pfizer. I was in the chemical division of Pfizer which was re-branded to the food science group in the 90's and sold in 96. My expertise was in industrial applications and the buyer had no need for my expertise. In that time period Rohm and Haas was purchased by Dow. I can't comment much on how that went, but, driving past the old location there were plenty of empty buildings. I suspect lots of hard working folks were looking for jobs, many of which would require relocating, often for a substantial distance.

I was lucky and found a job in NY to which I could commute to on weekends. The commute was a PITA and since my oldest was in high school commuting seemed a better option than moving. I don't know how representative my story is, but, I would guess that if a plumber, electrician or other tradesman lost a job through no fault of his own, a new position could be found without having to move across the country and upsetting the whole family's life.

Larry
 
I agree with what's been said but let's remember there are exceptions. We have a lot of young people serving our country who have their heads on right. I salute them. I have a granddaughter working 3 jobs, another one a senior in high school who will graduate high school with an associates degree at the same time, another high school senior who works part time, plays high school softball and will graduate with honors. Two grandsons who are high school freshmen, both honor roll students and student athletes. Let's look for something positive too!!🤪👍
 
Scotty said:
I agree with what's been said but let's remember there are exceptions. We have a lot of young people serving our country who have their heads on right. I salute them. I have a granddaughter working 3 jobs, another one a senior in high school who will graduate high school with an associates degree at the same time, another high school senior who works part time, plays high school softball and will graduate with honors. Two grandsons who are high school freshmen, both honor roll students and student athletes. Let's look for something positive too!!🤪👍
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Absolutely there is always that look at life differently and they stand out but there are those that look at life differently that STAND out also but differently. We need today's youth. Can not survive without them. Need new ideas and passion. As far as trades school and those jobs, yes they will be there but that is the whole point they will always be needed so why not travel that road. I was never cut out to sit behind a desk. I needed to be in the field and work with my hands. Does not make that Colledge grad any smarter than me.It is just that we a different skill sets. Same as making pens we all have different skill sets.
 
Scotty said:
I agree with what's been said but let's remember there are exceptions. We have a lot of young people serving our country who have their heads on right. I salute them. I have a granddaughter working 3 jobs, another one a senior in high school who will graduate high school with an associates degree at the same time, another high school senior who works part time, plays high school softball and will graduate with honors. Two grandsons who are high school freshmen, both honor roll students and student athletes. Let's look for something positive too!!🤪👍
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Of course there are always exceptions like this. There are still some parents who can lead their kids on the right paths of responsibility, accountability and respect. The problem is the percentage of this gets lower each generation.
 
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This fact remains. Of course these is an overall view, individual results may vary. We have vocational systems that are well funded and available to everyone, even older adults that may want to learn to weld etc. Students can even earn college credits at the vocational schools. Our granddaughter's boy friend for example joined the Air National Guard and finished two years of college at the local vocational school and is finishing his accounting degree on line. The Air Force is paying for it all and he's working at the local Air Force base full time while doing all this. Compared to his girlfriend, our granddaughter, who went to a private college basically to play volleyball. She however graduated in 3 1/2 years with honors and has a marketing/finance degree. The point is, there's lots of ways to get from point A to point B. You pay your money and take your choice. Work ethic is learned at home IMO.
 
It isn't just the trades that suffer from this affliction. I did some college, but I went into technology, and I'd been tinkering with all of that since I was 7, 8, and didn't end up needing a full degree. I moved quickly from college to the real world and salaries jobs, and never looked back.

I've been at this career since the mid 1990s, an was even doing work in the field for friends and other people before that. I've been making money at this career for about 30 years. I'm now the guy who usually does all the interviewing and hiring, mentoring, etc. Sadly, also the guy who often has to recommend whether we keep an employee or fire them, and all too often I end up having to recommend we let people go because of a radically poor work ethic, poor attendance, lack of effort (especially when I know they are extremely capable, but just won't put in the effort), etc.

The younger generation of modern day software engineers, or other people related to the field, are often very intelligent, sometimes extremely intelligent. However there really is a lack of....any real "interest" or "pride" in their work a lot of the time. A real lack of any honest responsibility. You can have a young 20-something "kid" super excited about a job. For maybe a month. Then they suddenly stop showing up, might not be at work for a day or days at a time, then when they do show up, the effort isn't there, the quality isn't produced, personal progress on skills and the like plateaus. Most of the time, once this happens, there is no turning things around...and we have to let someone go.

I've mentored a lot of young software engineers over the last decade or so. I had so much hope for all of them at the start, and so many times ended up surprised and disappointed at an utter lack of pride and effort in the long run, and even more so the whole "I JUST DIDN'T WANT TO WORK TODAY!" or "I NEEDED A MENTAL HEALTH DAY (er, WEEK!)" where they just don't show up for work at all. The really irksome thing about the not showing up, is there was never any warning. They just weren't there to do their job, no emails, no slack messages, no phone messages, they just didn't show up.

The real problem with that, no matter what the career, is the work STILL has to be done. Someone has to do it, and it will then fall to the responsible few who DO who up, and DO do their jobs day in and day out. Somebody always picks up the slack, works double time, triple effort, to get everything done that has to be done, and the saddest thing of all is there are only so many hours in the day... Only so much any given man can do, which means something has to suffer: quality, volume of work, or even achieving success at all.

So, its not just a trades problem. My experience is, a lot of younger people who have been to college, have NOT been prepared for the real world, and have the same...personality, ethical, pride...entitlement (!!) issues as anyone who say should have gone into the trades. In fact, on the contrary, I think a lot of the time, these younger generation graduates are being prepared by our colleges with a monstrous sense of entitlement that ends up becoming deeply engrained, and near impossible to break, even with real-world consequences like losing a job. I get a sense that people who have actually been to a vocational school, or perhaps been taken up directly under the wing of an older-generation master as an apprentice, end up developing a better ethic, if they "suffer" (properly learn!!) under a hard driving but highly skilled master craftsman or the like. These days, I trust our colleges and universities less and less to turn out truly capable productive individuals who have well developed skills in their field of interest, and an ethic to be a hard, reliable worker.
 
montmill's post reminds me of the recent UAW strike. $32 an hour plus all the benefits? Why did I go to college? I have worked assembly for a heck of a lot less than that when in college; $2.25 per hour to be exact. But...no responsibilities; those were the headaches of the supervisors and management. Work, go home and forget about until the next day to clock in.
jrista hit the nail on the head. Colleges are teaching crap that have nothing to do with work. One college was offering a course in movies.
I was in sales for restaurant equipment and supplies. The restaurants played "server roulette" as I would see the same people in a different restaurant each time I made the rounds.
 
jrista said:
...
So, its not just a trades problem. My experience is, a lot of younger people who have been to college, have NOT been prepared for the real world, and have the same...personality, ethical, pride...entitlement (!!) issues as anyone who say should have gone into the trades. In fact, on the contrary, I think a lot of the time, these younger generation graduates are being prepared by our colleges with a monstrous sense of entitlement that ends up becoming deeply engrained, and near impossible to break, even with real-world consequences like losing a job. I get a sense that people who have actually been to a vocational school, or perhaps been taken up directly under the wing of an older-generation master as an apprentice, end up developing a better ethic, if they "suffer" (properly learn!!) under a hard driving but highly skilled master craftsman or the like. These days, I trust our colleges and universities less and less to turn out truly capable productive individuals who have well developed skills in their field of interest, and an ethic to be a hard, reliable worker.
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I agree Jon, you hit so many critical issues here for example, ethics, integrity, entitlement, pride in workmanship, stick with something until you are done vs. being a butterfly.

I spent most of the last 20 years of my career supporting people running segments of our business and the one thing that I ALWAYS preached on hiring is, to hire for Attitude and Aptitude. Within reason, as long as they have a baseline skill set (eg. tech school, trade school, engineering degree, whatever the job requires), we can teach the rest, but bottom line, you cannot teach Attitude and Aptitude, you either have that or you don't! I spent 35 years in a business that relied upon workforce from trade schools, tech schools, colleges and universities. I have an engineering degree and then 20 years into my career got an MBA and I can tell you from experience that many of the most important things I learned about my job and leadership were learned were from tradesman. My point is that everyone has a critical role in our world and that we all need to get off our high horses and respect and value what others contribute.

I am very concerned about the future of our country because I have watched the quality of our workforce slide and the desire of our workforce to actually work slide. The focus on college at the expense of the trades is absolutely detrimental to our future. People complain that immigrants and other countries are taking our jobs. The problem is that the more recent generations don't want to work, they don't want or cannot handle those jobs. They want to be "influencers". Social Media is killing our society. I hate to say it, but I am glad I retired (recently) and that I don't have to deal with the workforce quality issues personally anymore.

I do, however, plan to engage and volunteer as a mentor at the University where I completed my MBA. I did this for a while, but things got too crazy at work and personal life, but now that I am retired (all of 5 months), I have the time and energy to re-engage. Hopefully I can make a difference for at least a few individuals.
 
The news said that 45% of small businesses are not requiring a Bachelor's degree.
Anyone wonder what degrees these guys had?: John D. Rockefeller, Cornelius Vanderbilt, Andrew Carnegie, Leland Stanford, etc. and the list goes on.
My father worked for a fellow who showed my father: There's my name on the door. In 1959, he was worth $19 million and served on the BOD for some companies in Ohio and Pennsylvania. All with a 4th grade education.
 
egnald said:
I came in late this morning, so I am planning on leaving early to make up for it. - Dave
PS I learned some basic gunsmithing in my High School shop class. Can you imagine what would happen if a teenager took their shotgun to School today.
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We had a gun club in our High School. On gun club nights we trooped onto the morning school bus with our .22 rifles in soft cases.
 
jrista, I have often heard what they could have done if they were in legitimate business. Goes to show the relationship of supply and demand.
 
bsshog40 said:
It's a different era. We use to have woodworking, mechanics class and welding in high school. Those classes hardly exist anymore in schools. We have 7 yr old twin g-babies in elementary school doing most their work on ipads. Our 28 yr old daughter couldn't even tell time on an analog clock after she graduated high school. Our schools have taken out common sense training and replaced it with computers doing the thinking for them. We've replaced discipline with sensitivity training. Time outs are now "comfort zones". Masculinity is being replaced with "Feeling Expression ". Quality has been replaced with quantity. Our generation of completing a job with a feeling of satisfaction no longer exists. The workforce for hard workers is slowly being depleted and replaced with people with no ambition who only want success handed to them. The "Ladder to Success " has been replaced with a "Podium for Attention".
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easier to contol
 
Woodchipper said:
3. KenB259, did anyone ask how the deer coped with the accident?
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Don't know about KenB250's deer, but a few miles from my house a guy hit a deer in the subdivision... as the deer went through the windshield and out the back window, he kicked the driver as he went through... the deer left the scene of the accident, but the driver spent 2 weeks in the hospital. They're still looking for the deer to ticket it for leaving the scene of an accident. LOL
 
TellicoTurning said:
It was not unusual at all to see a pickup pull into my high school parking lot with one or two guns in the gun rack behind the student driver.
`Don't remember ever having a school shooting since everybody was armed.....'Course that was in Texas.
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Ditto my Louisiana high school. 1 shotgun & 1 rifle per rack was typical.
 
Colleges are not doing what they once did either. Special elite students used to be the ones going to college. I have a couple of friends who teach at a college and they have to have a special extra class for these kids to learn how to write proper sentences. Stuff most of us older people had learned in elementary school. Most colleges have to dumb down the entrance quotas to fill their schools. Because there is no money like guaranteed government money. I would say half the students don't belong there and should be taking vocational training. As well, most of the colleges today don't teach how to think and understand logic. They indoctrinate them into their own personal causes... whatever that might be.
 
d_bondi said:
Robber Barons one and all...
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Joe Kennedy Sr., got his money from bootlegging. Bought liquor in Europe, delivered to Canada, smuggled across the border into the US. After prohibition, he invested his millions. Read: Five Families by Selwyn Raab; Killing the Mob by Bill O'Reilly. The latter will show how crooked politics really is. Another good book: When the Mob Ruled Las Vegas, author unknown at this time.
 
I could not do it at that time ...but looking back I would have enjoyed teaching shop. Teaching people to use their skills properly, show up on time, how to present themselves,..how to turn anything into a business. Makes me sick today... 2 kinds of people. Professionals and Hackers.
There is no substitute. The best hustle is a 9-5 with a paycheck....and do the job right the first time
 
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Before I married the first time, I did do 2 years at local JR college... most of my fellow students were just out of high school, I had already done 4 years in the navy and worked a year in Dallas and another one or 2 in Los Angeles before I enrolled on the VA program in the Bay Area of San Francisco.... .. I was kind of the "old man" of the class. Often had a different perspective from the rest of the class. After I got my AA and then got married, I was too busy making a living and raising my new wife's daughter to go further... although I did try one class at a local night school college program. The instructor didn't seem to be interested in teaching though, he spent about 2/3 of the class time telling us about his new sail boat. The cost of it, and the cost to maintain it... was not interested in his boat and dropped out.

When my son got out of the army in mid to late 90s, he enrolled at University of Texas... he made almost one whole semester before he decided he could make more money doing computer work... he worked at IT man for a local newspaper in Austin until the Y2K scare came up.... he applied for a job with a company that was supposed to work on the problem and to help companies avoid problems... the interviewer was a former army colonel that like him and asked if he could program in a particular language, he couldn't but said he could.... on the way home from the interview he bought a book on that language, read it over the weekend and started on Monday at his new job.... the colonel loved him. (Y2K turned out to be a bust, a problem that never happened.

He later left that company and with a buddy started his own computer company then sold it out and did other computer work... today he's the manager of programming for a company that is doing something for education and speech therapy for young children. He oversees programmers in 5 or 6 different countries, reports to his boss in Japan and his sales manager in New York... All with only one semester or part of a semester of college. I don't know how much he makes, but he just bought and paid cash for a house near him for me to live in...

He was always smart with computers and someday I hope to be as smart... not likely though. When he was 12 I came home from work to find a cable from the TV in the living room running down the hall to his room where he had contrived a switch box to his computer monitor so he could watch TV or switch over to the monitor to do his work or gaming. I also learned about that time he was watching contractors behind us building houses... they had 3 going at once.... one of them showed him how to install the plugs in the wall sockets, handed him a screwdriver and left him to finish up... he told me he had wired all the plugs in the three houses...

I have heard that Michael Dell and Bill Gates never finished college.... Kids don't need college, just a little drive.
 
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