glycerine
Member
There is a HUGE difference between the definition of "quality control" and the definition of "quality". Just sayin'
Quality CONTROL vs. Quality
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Rifleman1776
Member
glycerine
Member
Is it? I'm sure China uses quality control. Do they produce quality products?
paintspill
Member
i have the best quality control department. my wife. she is brutal when it comes to pointing out the flaws. but its made my pens better and me a better turner. i know if it passes her, it is officially sellable
glycerine
Member
Yeah, I usually run things by my wife as well and get her opinion. It's always good to have a second pair of eyes...
tomas
Member
Having been a manufacturing quality assurance manager in a previous career encarnation, to me quality and quality control are not the same thing. Quality control means that your process operates within a prescribed range of characteristics. The definition of the acceptable range of the characteristics is what determines the quality. The higher the quality, the narrower the range. Generally, the narrower the range, the more expensive the process in terms of material, labor, time, etc.
If my acceptable quality range for turning is to be within +- 1/16" of kit diameter, as long as I am within that range, my process is in control and I am acheiving the desired level of quality.
Just my $.02, worth exactly what you paid for it.
Tomas
glycerine
Member
That's what I'm getting at. There is a manufacturer's definition of "quality", in which quality control assures that a product meets a certain level of "quality". Then there is the consumer's definition of "quality", meaning that not every product that passes quality control standards are actually "quality" products.
There is a particular member here who keeps going on and on about quality, but they are only defining "quality" by the definition of quality control... in which case ANYONE can produce a quality product because THEY are the ones defining the quality control standards, thus defining what "quality" means! :monkey:
Russianwolf
Member
Tomas, you just hit the nail on the head. QC is about acceptability, not quality.
What manufacturer A finds acceptable to put their name on and sell may be different than manufacturer B and that may be different from what the customer finds acceptable.
Harbor Freight is a prime example. By the QC definition, all their products are quality (aka acceptable, they met spec) and they put the product on their shelves and sell them. By most people's meaning of quality, they are inferior in most cases and HF knows it. So HF throws a low price on them knowing that when (not if) it fails the customer likely won't bother to return it.
What happens if you have a product that doesn't meet spec, but performs better at the specified job than one that is in Spec? You definitely wouldn't say that the out of spec is not quality.
What manufacturer A finds acceptable to put their name on and sell may be different than manufacturer B and that may be different from what the customer finds acceptable.
Harbor Freight is a prime example. By the QC definition, all their products are quality (aka acceptable, they met spec) and they put the product on their shelves and sell them. By most people's meaning of quality, they are inferior in most cases and HF knows it. So HF throws a low price on them knowing that when (not if) it fails the customer likely won't bother to return it.
What happens if you have a product that doesn't meet spec, but performs better at the specified job than one that is in Spec? You definitely wouldn't say that the out of spec is not quality.
KenV
Member
QC = predictable results -- in the things being measure.
Many of the things we discuss are like one of our supreme court justices once said about obsenity - He would know it when he saw it.
Many of the things we discuss with "quality" are hard to put metrics upon and without measurement, how can you tell -- outside the luxury trade where it is like obsenity -- you know it when you see it and are willing to pay for it.
Harbor Freight is predictable -- and the width of performance range and wide variability in service life is predictable. That is why the do a good business with the lifetime warrenty jig.
Many of the things we discuss are like one of our supreme court justices once said about obsenity - He would know it when he saw it.
Many of the things we discuss with "quality" are hard to put metrics upon and without measurement, how can you tell -- outside the luxury trade where it is like obsenity -- you know it when you see it and are willing to pay for it.
Harbor Freight is predictable -- and the width of performance range and wide variability in service life is predictable. That is why the do a good business with the lifetime warrenty jig.
terryf
Member
In my opinion a quality product is one which falls into MY specification and not that of the manufacturer, irrespective of his/her quality manual/specs.
I recently looked into buying an oscilloscope and to my horror I discovered that a particular manufacturer considers a 30% MOE to be acceptable by their standards - certainly no good in the real world and most definitely not acceptable by my standards.
I recently looked into buying an oscilloscope and to my horror I discovered that a particular manufacturer considers a 30% MOE to be acceptable by their standards - certainly no good in the real world and most definitely not acceptable by my standards.
I think you are referring to me - if I'm wrong please correct me.
Yes, I do use a QC definition of quality as it applies to our products and since we are usually talking about the same product(s), I do think we should all be on the same page when using the term.
In my opinion it does no one any good to get an opinion regarding the quality of an pen kit unless both the giver and getter of the opinion are on the same page as to what quality is.
I will say this....almost 50 IAP members have contributed to my pen collection - some pens were made from very expensive kits and blanks, some from very inexpensive kits and blanks. Nearly all are excellent quality.....(now what did I mean by that?)
Andrew_K99
Member
This is the problem. We are not talking about the same products. Kit A and Kit B are not the same. If comparing Kit A and kit B we could say that one is of higher quality because of the material used and/or fit and finish of the components.
If a customer asked you for a high quality kit would you offer them a slim line? I highly duobt it. This is what you are missing in this conversation, we as customers don't really care about the manufacturing QA of the proudct, we assume it meets spec (if it doesn't you'll hear about it).
AK
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- in short you would apply some consistant measurements to each kit to determine it's relative quality. That is my argument Andrew.
No, nor would I offer an Emperor without asking about what style they might like.
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studioso
Member
as a production manager, I feel the need to chime in, even though I think that there is no disagreement here:
when talking about quality in the retail market, it's a marketing term used to describe a perceived quality:a product that outperforms the competitor's product. it's like saying "better built".
quality control is a term used on the shop floor: it defines the way a manufacturer defines quality parameters to a product and assures that any item on the market doesn't deviate from the standards, whatever deviation they establish.
the classic example in school used to be that jaguar is perceived as a better quality car than toyota, but from a manufacturing standpoint toyota adheres to better quality controls standard. I think things might be different today with sticky gas pedals and all..
when talking about quality in the retail market, it's a marketing term used to describe a perceived quality:a product that outperforms the competitor's product. it's like saying "better built".
quality control is a term used on the shop floor: it defines the way a manufacturer defines quality parameters to a product and assures that any item on the market doesn't deviate from the standards, whatever deviation they establish.
the classic example in school used to be that jaguar is perceived as a better quality car than toyota, but from a manufacturing standpoint toyota adheres to better quality controls standard. I think things might be different today with sticky gas pedals and all..
Andrew_K99
Member
What kit you would suggest is not the point, the point, and you've grudgingly agreed, is that you recognise that a slim line woudln't be a high quality kit (as asked for by a customer) even though it is manufactured to high standards and meets it specifications.
You have to ignore the manufacturing mind set you are so focused on when defining quality between different things.
AK
Read the whole sentence....maybe I have to be clearer "No, I would not offer any kit without asking about what style they might like."
nativewooder
Member
My thought on "quality control" is that it is about standards set by the Board of Directors of large companies. Unfortunately, many of those Boards are made of wealthy members who have no idea what they are setting standards for. And my favorite is WallyWorld,
which will sell anything that comes out the door in China. They don't worry about quality or quality control because they think their customers can't spell either one! And they are mostly correct.
:biggrin:
which will sell anything that comes out the door in China. They don't worry about quality or quality control because they think their customers can't spell either one! And they are mostly correct.:biggrin:
Russianwolf
Member
and lets say we all get on the same page and agree to a very specific definition/standard for quality.
What happens when OUR customer disagrees (as Hank's did), do I now have to explain to them that they are wrong "as we've agreed to a standard in the industry".
Quality is by definition subjective. Even in the old meanings, "People of Quality" I likely wouldn't think are of quality to waste my time with them. (I don't find much value socializing with high society types even though I have to in my profession). For another example, I don't think any kit with a cross refill is quality. Others disagree, but the only person whose opinion matters to me is mine.
Even in QC its subjective. The reason being is the specs are arbitrary. Someone decides what the acceptable specs are. The next person may have picked other specs as acceptable for the same job. And so on. So you can test all you want, but you are still using a subjective target.
What happens when OUR customer disagrees (as Hank's did), do I now have to explain to them that they are wrong "as we've agreed to a standard in the industry".
Quality is by definition subjective. Even in the old meanings, "People of Quality" I likely wouldn't think are of quality to waste my time with them. (I don't find much value socializing with high society types even though I have to in my profession). For another example, I don't think any kit with a cross refill is quality. Others disagree, but the only person whose opinion matters to me is mine.
Even in QC its subjective. The reason being is the specs are arbitrary. Someone decides what the acceptable specs are. The next person may have picked other specs as acceptable for the same job. And so on. So you can test all you want, but you are still using a subjective target.
Hula daddy
Member
In my simple mind
Quality = not a piece of crap
Quality Control = can be a piece of crap as long as its made at a constant crappy level.
In the Mid 90's I helped develop a lot of testing procedures for companies who trying to get obtain the ISO 9000 certifications. They really did not review the procedures to see if they worked and would produce a quality product. they were really only concerned that it would produce the same level of quality consistently.
So when you are told ' we follow strict quality control protocols ' it is subjective and means nothing as to the out come of the quality of the product
Quality = not a piece of crap
Quality Control = can be a piece of crap as long as its made at a constant crappy level.
In the Mid 90's I helped develop a lot of testing procedures for companies who trying to get obtain the ISO 9000 certifications. They really did not review the procedures to see if they worked and would produce a quality product. they were really only concerned that it would produce the same level of quality consistently.
So when you are told ' we follow strict quality control protocols ' it is subjective and means nothing as to the out come of the quality of the product
Gilrock
Member
Hold on....grabbing a bucket of popcorn. 
The spec is the baseline and yes - it is arbitrary. Conformance to that spec is not subjective, it either meets it or it doesn't.
Well we agree here, I wouldn't know what people of quality are... Quality beer would be another - to me a beer that I like the taste of is a quality beer and one that I don't like isn't and I don't care what anyone elses opinion on a beer's quality is. It needs to pass the taste test.
jasontg99
Member
What is the point of all this??? It feels like we are on a merry go round. A lot of movement, but no forward movement. Same old argument. Nothing new is being brought to light.