Practice and Experiment

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TerryDowning

Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
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520
Location
Newhall, CA
This is a bit of a rant and hopefully some encouragement.

I've been a member of this forum for a while now, and it never ceases to amaze me how many people are looking for someone to do their homework for them.

Exact recipes, step by step instructions, etc. I'm guilty of this myself but I like to think I have learned. As time has gone on I realize the importance of practicing techniques until I get them right, especially using a skew and finishing.

I have also realized the importance of experimenting and fine tuning a process to achieve desired results.

This is art, you have to practice techniques and experiment.

FYI That 30 pen order that has to be done by a deadline is NOT the time to practice or experiment. Ideally you should have the skills required BEFORE taking that large order. Rather between orders or if you're like me and do this for a hobby, make every project a journey into new techniques or an opportunity to practice technique.

Take an idea you have seen on this or another site and experiment, try new things. You will screw up I promise you that, but sometimes, those screw ups turn into opportunities for new things as well. If nothing else, you have learned a way NOT to do something, which IMHO is just as important as learning the correct way to do something.

If you don't have tools described think of alternatives. Example. I don't own a chain saw, I do own a pruning saw and a couple of large hand saws. I can still process logs for bowl turning, it just takes me longer and I get a heck of an upper body workout! I wouldn't want to process very many of these, but then again, I don't do this for a living, YMMV. Along the same vein, I don't own a set of metric taps and dies and at this time, I can't justify the expense. I do have a set of standard taps and dies. While not ideal for custom pen making, they can be used t learn and practice principals and technique.

Last but not least, take time to learn about and understand materials and tools you are using. ALWAYS keep safety in mind and if something doesn't feel safe, don't do it.

End of rant, and hopefully some are encouraged to extend their skill sets.
 
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Terry; A bow saw works marvelously well for trimming that bowl blank to size. A Reciprocating saw (sawzall) also works well and the power helps.

I often mess up the first time, but rarely the secon time!
 
I would like to agree because I don't know of anyone who does things the same way I do. You have to practice and experiment unless you spend all your time blaming someone else every time you have a failure. If you haven't had a failure, I don't know you and don't want to!:rolleyes:
 
I agree to some extent but I don't see a problem with asking for info on a specific technique or process some one used to craft an object. But when one uses a material or a technique the student learned from an instructor as it were the student should give credit to the instructor for his or her willingness to share their knowledge and then the student should use that technique or knowledge to expand, change, or improve on the process.

There are many on here that are just starting out and benefit from those helpful instructions given willingly by the craftsman. After all isn't that the purpose of this site, to promote and expand this art form.
 
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I believe that there's a need to provide some information to kick start those that are just entering this hobby, it's how it grows. It's also good to provide some more detailed info for those wanting to expand and get started trying more advanced techniques. Thus why this site is so valuable to many of us.

It's like going to a seminar to learn something new, minus the benefit of having the expert in the room with you. Apprenticing with a master would be akin to the thought of taking ideas and techniques from others as well, but as you learn you also develop your own skills and techniques based on your own experiences, skills and techniques that often those that taught you might not ever have learned.
 
As with most issues there are two sides to every coin. How about the high school student that has a very limited budget and making his own resin blanks? Should he "do his own homework" and blow through all of the resin that he could afford to learn the hard way? Maybe there will be less people in the hobby because they get discouraged turning a specific blank and blowing it up because nobody will offer assistance.

Come to think of it, if that was the way it was suppose to be then what would be the purpose of the IAP other than to get a pat on your back and show off your work. Sure wouldn't be about learning and advancing your skills because we of course want you to do your homework.

Terry I really do understand your frustration especially when you work for months at learning or achieving something, but that is what this place it really about. Sharing your skills, ideas and talents to improve the hobby. So relax and look at it as a compliment when someone takes the time to ask you how you did something. Chances are they are really impressed with what you do.
 
I don't think he is referring to general questions etc., but the people that can't make search work don't know what google is, and my favorite from a couple of metal art sites I'm on is the "I just so busy, I don't have time to waste looking the information up or researching the topic!" I had a women jewelry artist tell me this when she wanted to know some information that would take years to learn to do the procedure correctly. So it isn't only on this forum but internet wide.

A long time ago at a school I worked at, a young women teacher was stuck in the parking lot filled with snow. It was starting to get dark when she came in crying about not being able to move the car. Two of us guys went out to help, first thing I noticed was both of the drive tires were as bald as my head! I showed the other guy he said nicely to her that she might think of getting at least newer used tires. She snapped back,"Why should she waste money on tires when she always find a couple of suckers to push her out!" Well the two suckers told have a nice night and went back into the building leaving her were she was.
That are always people willing to take advantage of the good hearted/natured people. Mostly I call them the "legends in their own minds" :wink:
:clown:
 
Clarification

Just so we're clear.

I'm all about sharing experience especially when it's safety related. I find the library an incredible resource. But at least look in the library or use the search function, or Google and do your own home work.

It's also reasonable to ask for assistance or clarification. I have been mystified many times and have asked "how'd you do that??" (AFTER I have researched the issue and attempted something on my own, as many times the answer is in the doing) and then refine my own methodology for something similar. I've tried suggestions and didn't like the procedures provided so I came up with something that gave me the results I wanted. This is what sharing allows to do.

Lately I'm seeing a lot more posts asking for all of the secret information or silver bullets up front and people want all the answers to all possibilities without ever trying on their own. Then when they see dozens of posts with different styles, opinions, or techniques they get frustrated.

There is no magic process or material and there are no silver bullets. Each of has to practice and figure out what works best for our self. We all need to experiment with different materials and determine which is best for our needs at the time. This is what keeps this whole venture in the realm of ART and not science.

Start a process and give it a whirl or a dozen different tries, if you get stuck, ask for help. But don't hem and haw, ask for all the answers and wait until all the answers arrive before attempting anything. is all I'm saying.

I did say in my OP that this thread started as a bit of a rant so take it for what it's worth:smile:

In closing I want to add that it's not just this forum or even the internet that I see this mentality. This instant gratification give me all the answers mindset is prevalent throughout our society. I fear this is a side effect of the information age and the disposable world we live in. With so much knowledge, material, and finished goods at our fingertips, we (society in general) are getting lazy and are no longer willing to work for answers or results. I freely admit to falling into this trap myself from time to time. This is an area in my life that I believe needs improving so this rant is also directed inward.
 
I agree with all points stated and no I'm not a politican. This is my second reply to the IAP Forum as I have only been a member a short time. That being said many people have told me I have a creative mind and I tell them I just know where to steal some great ideas. I would like to thank all who post their creations and techniques to help get others started. I still have trouble with several things I do because I didn't have the right equipment or the exact procedures. It has been fun and frustrating but very rewarding when it all comes together. I still have trouble with snakeskins and feathers but I do get some nice ones from time to time. I'm currently working on some quarter blanks and so far I'm really excited. Thanks again to all that has shared. I'll post some of my pens when I have time to figure out how to do it. I'm also very computer challenged.
 
I had to wait a bit to be humble...sometimes I shoot my mouth off. I really enjoy every little bit of knowledge I get here. There are forums that think of pen turners as lower that a worms belly in a wagon rutt. Having neither the intelligence, time or $$ to try every itteration on the planet, it kinda sucks that we need others to guide us. Those that give to the rest of us...thanks and God bless.
 
I always believed that a persons life was too short to learn everything on your own. Having a mentor explain how to perform an operation does not mean that you have the skill to mimic him the first time. It still takes time and practice. Learning from others is the way of the world. I guess if we are to learn everything on our own there would not be any use for schools or universities. They show us how to learn, but we have to do the learning and get the skills that come from performiing the tasks as demonstrated. I hate to think how long it would take, and how many patients would die, if a surgeon had to learn it all on his own.

Most of us are very good at creating unique pens. But it is impossible for each and every pen to be unique. We take a set of instructions, or look at a picture of a pen we admire and figure out how to create our version. If you do not think that we all have our own way of doing the same processes, read the replies to a "simple" question from a new member. We give umpteen different views on how to perform the task. We all may end up in a similar place but the way we get there are many. I don't think that a person will ask a question about how a pen was created as an opportunity to steal anothers ideas; it is a way to learn and to arrive at a starting point to the creation that we have in our mind as to how to improve on that idea. Imitation is a form of flattery. There are things that we do that are unique and ground breaking. If so that person may not want to share the "secrets" of manufacture as they will lose that market advantage. If you cannot share a process fine, but many of our new creations are not unique enough to be held in that manner. Share what you want, if you feel it is beneficial to others, or not.:biggrin:
 
Why can't I ever find that image of the dead horse being beaten when I do a Google search for it :frown:

Seems as if the topic of sharing versus doing all the leg work yourself surfaces about as regular as which CA process is the best or which kit is the best these days. I am against spoon feeding every little bit of information and quite often will deliberately leave out dimensions and sizes of things I am sharing to get people to think on their own but there is nothing wring with sharing in general.

Why share anything, why not just shut down the forum and everyone go their own ways and do their own thing OR............ perhaps those unhappy with what they see, just find another forum to participate in or not participate in I guess would be more appropriate!

I don't understand why it bothers some people so much when they see others asking for assistance or when they see some volunteer their assistance.
 
I agree with George. I for one feel that if you don't want the questions don't read the the posts. Most people here and on other forums ask questions because they get caught doing something. Maybe they have tried and tried and still can't get something so they ask for help. No one is forced into answering. I myself find the exchange of information helpful and I don't mind sharing my knowledge. I have learned so much from the exchange of information and improved my own skills in pen making and turning in general. I am thankful for those that share and the camaraderie and community created by those that share here.
 
I have no problem with people asking for help with home work. I do have issues with people asking to have the homework done for them. It is a big difference.

I always helped my kids with their homework, I never did it for them.
 
TerryDowning said:
I've been a member of this forum for a while now, and it never ceases to amaze me how many people are looking for someone to do their homework for them.

Exact recipes, step by step instructions, etc...

Last but not least, take time to learn about and understand materials and tools you are using.
Click to expand...

You say "looking for someone to do their homework for them", I say "doing their homework". Or, in your words, taking "time to learn about and understand materials and tools."

Certainly, experimentation and experience are required. That does not reduce the value in seeking (and getting) good guidance as a starting point.
 
Well put Mike.
Help and guide others if they ask, that is sharing. That is the American way. (OK, that is my patriotism for the day)

Ray
 
IAP library is a great source of information. To shut it down as some have suggested is not an option as far as I am concerned.................
 
I think the differences of opinion which we see in this thread and many which have preceded it over the years , is that for some of us the journey to an end point is integral to and an enjoyable part of that end point , whereas for others the end point is the primary focus .
 
1080Wayne said:
I think the differences of opinion which we see in this thread and many which have preceded it over the years , is that for some of us the journey to an end point is integral to and an enjoyable part of that end point , whereas for others the end point is the primary focus .
Click to expand...
Do you mean to tell me that there are those who come here not only for inspiration but for a set of instructions (step 1, 2 3, complete with illustrations) that they can print out and put in a binder they call "How I make my pens" :eek::wink:

Let's look at this situation using section making as an example.

Obviously it's a part of making a custom pen that's kicking a lot of butts out there, at least getting beyond the first few so how does one reach out to help those who are indeed trying to get over their hurdles without spoon feeding those not willing to lift a finger without an assembly manual?

I think tutorials in the library are a good way and a tutorial doesn't need to be detailed 1,2,3, steps but general guidelines with a few key details left out to deliberately make the reader stop and think. Actually, the tutorial is better than hashing out in a thread where there will be some passing out erroneous data and just further confusing the one seeking advice.
 
Then there's the concept of standing on the shoulders of giants. I don't mind sharing details of how I do things, I know whoever uses the concepts will make it fit thier style and make it thier own. Who knows how much further that person may advance the craft and return with something better to share with us.
 
Gary Beasley said:
Then there's the concept of standing on the shoulders of giants. I don't mind sharing details of how I do things, I know whoever uses the concepts will make it fit thier style and make it thier own. Who knows how much further that person may advance the craft and return with something better to share with us.
Click to expand...

Gary you are right but I think Terry's problem is when someone looks for all the minute details and then tells people it is there design. They are smart enough to not do it here but other forums they try to pass it as their design....

Sharing is great! Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't be able to do a lot of what I do today without great help from others but I have not been force fed. I received clues but not procedures and I think that is best and will advance our hobby faster than just plain out exposing the "keys to the castle".

Just my 2 cents....
 
Texatdurango said:
Actually, the tutorial is better than hashing out in a thread where there will be some passing out erroneous data and just further confusing the one seeking advice.
Click to expand...

Or another opinion - I'm the complete opposite the way I think of things. Tutorials are nice, but hashing things out in a thread is better than a tutorial because it offers alternative ideas and suggestions that make people think more than a tutorial that shows one persons way of doing it. It may seem confusing, but since different people explain differently and do things in a multitude of ways, the advise speaker can ask clarification or pick up more information that sinks in best with their skills.
 
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