Poly glue....what went wrong?

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mnerland

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So I thought I was a poly glue convert for my tubes to blank. Tonight I had a complete "spin off".....loss of adhesion.
Pulled the tube out.....completely coated.....plenty of foam (water treated) when I started, sanded tube etc. This was a
stabilized box elder burl blank, so I'm wondering if anyone else has seen this happen. Maybe a reaction to the stabilization
fluid? Not a loss.....I spun the glue off the tube and ran the drill back through the blank and finished with epoxy. Any comments?
 
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leehljp

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Just to keep this honest, there have been failures with epoxy on here before (reason: old, uneven mix, not known), but other than occasional "pushing the tube out" there have been no failures with poly glue that I have read.

And I have had, along with a few other posts over the years, blowouts with using epoxy. The problem with epoxy is the same with CA, there are still pockets of air inside, even on the best.

What Brand of poly were you using? How old was it? Was it white poly? Many people have come to think of "Gorilla" glue as "polyurethane", but Gorilla has expanded into several kinds of glue including CA. They have a low foaming poly that does not seem to have the same properties of its regular brownish poly glue.

"Stabilization fluid" . . . did you do your own stabilizing? How long since it was stabilized before using it?
 

monophoto

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Just to keep this honest, there have been failures with epoxy on here before (reason: old, uneven mix, not known), but other than occasional "pushing the tube out" there have been no failures with poly glue that I have read.

And I have had, along with a few other posts over the years, blowouts with using epoxy. The problem with epoxy is the same with CA, there are still pockets of air inside, even on the best.

What Brand of poly were you using? How old was it? Was it white poly? Many people have come to think of "Gorilla" glue as "polyurethane", but Gorilla has expanded into several kinds of glue including CA. They have a low foaming poly that does not seem to have the same properties of its regular brownish poly glue.

"Stabilization fluid" . . . did you do your own stabilizing? How long since it was stabilized before using it?
Great questions. Let me add one more - exactly what were you doing when the failure occurred? Is it possible that the blank overheated? Excessive heat can cause any glue to soften.
 

TonyL

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To Lee's point...I had every adhesive I used fail at least once despite following the instructions. I am sure it was something that I did. If it happens twice in a row, I stop using it/discard. However, that has not happened yet....but I am working on it! :)
 

jttheclockman

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If you have pockets that glue fails then your hole is too big. Tough to see how epoxy could ever fail. Two things come to mind. It is too old, it kicks before you need it to using 5 minute stuff, used too much hardner. I have nothing to compare my epoxy use to because I never used anything else since I started this hobby. I push all the time System3 T88 epoxy. It is a product that needs 24 hours to cure. CA is water thin so I can see failures there. The expanding stuff is too messy in my opinion. Anything else I am not aware of. Failures are due to operator error or product age.
 

mnerland

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Thanks for all the info! I'll try to answer all the questions in this one post.

*The poly glue was Gorilla (Brown) purchased about 1 month ago
*I let it cure for at least 24 hours. (As I said, "I had plenty of foam also")
*I did not stabilize this myself. Purchase from PSI
*At the time of the failure, I was just approaching "roundness" with a roughing gouge and turning fairly slow (1600 rpm)

Again, thanks for the discussion. It just seemed odd to me that it failed when the tube was so evenly coated.

Mike
 

penicillin

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I have done a lot of pens with polyurethane glue. It is my glue of choice for pen making. I use it for every pen, other than a few special needs (e.g., translucent pen blanks). I usually glue about 8 or 10 pen blanks at a time. I do it inside the house where it is comfortable, but with great care not to make a mess. I have never had a failure. It is hard for me to imagine that the failure above occurred, but it did. Here are a few notes and clarifications about polyurethane glue.

How To Apply Polyurethane Glue for Gluing Brass Pen Tubes in Pen Blanks:

Materials:
* Pen tubes and matching drilled pen blanks
* Sandpaper - Any small throwaway bit of sandpaper will do, in any grit that is not extra course.
* Q-tip type cotton swab - If you have a lot of pens to do, you may need more than one, as they get swollen and yucky in use.
* Disposable glove
* Paper towel - If you have a lot of pens to do, you may need more than one sheet. Keep a waste can nearby - polyurethane can be messy.
* Wax paper - Used to protect your work surface from foaming glue as it cures. Those Rockler silicone project mats work great, and they are reusable.
* Water - I use an empty plastic pill bottle to hold the water, for convenience
* Polyurethane Glue - I use Gorilla Glue (original) and White Gorilla Glue (see comments below)
* Chisel
* The long "drill bit" part of pen mills that match your pen tubes, used to push out dried glue.

Instructions:
1. Roughen the outside of the brass pen tube with sandpaper. The sandpaper type doesn't matter. Wipe or blow off the sandpaper and brass dust when finished.
2. (Optional) Plug the brass pen tube with the material of your choice: dental wax, PlayDoh, etc. In theory, this prevents the glue from getting inside the brass tube. I don't bother. I find it easy to clean out the dried polyurethane glue. I do not find it easy to clean out dental wax or PlayDoh.
3. Repeat steps 1 and 2 for each pen tube you are planning to glue. Keep each tube with its matching pen blank to avoid confusion.
4. Put the disposable glove on your hand that will hold and insert the pen tubes
5. Polyurethane glue needs moisture. Take a Q-tip type cotton swab, dip it in the water, and then use it to moisten the inside of the hole in the pen blank.
6. Hold the pen tube in your gloved hand.
7. Use the other hand to apply the polyurethane glue in a spiral around the pen tube.
8. Set the glue bottle down and pick up the wetted pen blank.
9. Using a twisting in-and-out motion, insert the gluey pen tube into the pen blank. Your motion should spread the glue uniformly around the tube and inside the pen blank. Relax. There is time to do it right.
10. Use your gloved thumb to push the tube fully into the pen blank hole. I like to take my gluey thumb and wipe off the excess glue from the top of the pen blank.
11. Use the paper towel to wipe the excess glue from your gloved thumb. Put the sticky, messy paper towel in a safe place.
12. Set the pen blank on its side, down on the wax paper. Leave room so that the foaming glue won't go past the edge of the wax paper.
13. Repeat steps 5 through 12 for each pen blank and matching tube.
14. When you're done, wipe the top of the glue bottle clean with a clean, new paper towel. Squeeze the glue bottle to remove the air, and while squeezing, screw the cap back on the glue bottle.
15. Allow the polyurethane glue to cure for 24 hours or more.
Caveat: I have heard rumors that the foaming glue can push the pen tube partly out, beyond the top of the pen blank, but it has never happened to me. I make sure that the pen tube is fully inserted, slightly below the top of the pen blank, to leave room for milling. I leave the pen blank on its side, level, while the glue cures.
16. After the glue cures, use the chisel to knock off the excess glue from the top of each pen blank. CAUTION: Never never never allow a finger or thumb to be in the path of the chisel!! Use a clamp to hold the pen blank and/or keep your fingers below the surface that you are scraping.
17. Use the "drill" part of a pen mill to push the dried glue out of the inside of each pen tube. It usually comes out very clean for me, but on extremely rare occasions, I need a rattail file to clean it gently.

Notes and Clarifications about Polyurethane Glue for Pens:

* Gorilla Glue (original) and White Gorilla Glue are both polyurethane glues. Both should be used with water. Polyurethane glue foams as it cures. The original Gorilla Glue cures to a pale yellow. White Gorilla Glue cures white.
* White Gorilla Glue works just as well as original Gorilla Glue. It is more runny, which I don't like because it tends to drip before I can get the tube in the pen blank. White Gorilla Glue hardens faster than the original Gorilla Glue, but I still recommend waiting a full 24 hours to cure before turning the pen.
* Clear Gorilla Glue is NOT a polyurethane glue, it is a a silane-based glue. It does not foam. It can also be used for pens. It still requires 24 hours to cure.
* There are other brands of polyurethane glue, and they are equally good. I buy Gorilla Glue for the convenient small size.
* I buy the smallest bottles of Gorilla Glue for pens. They cost around $5 each at any hardware store. Read the label carefully to make sure you are getting original Gorilla Glue and not Gorilla Wood Glue or some other product.
* The smallest bottle will glue 40-50 pens or more. Even though you get a better value from buying larger quantities, I can't use up that much before it goes bad - in about a year.
* Protect your polyurethane glue from moisture. Don't store it in the refrigerator or freezer. When you remove it, the condensation will kill it.
* Before putting the glue away, clean the tip with a clean, dry paper towel. Squeeze the air out of the bottle to remove as much airborne moisture as possible. While squeezed, apply the cap to seal it.
* You know your polyurethane glue is done when it gets thicker and harder to squeeze out of the bottle, or it changes color. Throw it away and buy another.
* Despite the hype, polyurethane glue is not stronger than other glues typically used in woodworking. Epoxy is stronger. So is wood glue (for wood joinery, never for pen tubes).
* I like how polyurethane glue expands to fill gaps between pen tubes, but that foamy glue does not form a strong bond. Polyurethane glue will not compensate for a pen blank hole that is too large for the pen tube. I like the foaming action because it prevents the pen tube from wiggling during assembly and use where there are small chips or minor gaps.
* If you have a pen blank with a hole that is too large for the pen tube (but still possible to salvage). Do not use and count on polyurethane to "fill the gap." See the note above. Instead, use epoxy to provide adhesion and structural strength. Add prayer after it cures. :)

Some Reasons Why a Polyurethane-glued Pen Failed During Turning:

* Hole too large for pen tube. The polyurethane foaming action fills the gap, but that foamed glue is weak.
* The pen turner did not allow enough time for the polyurethane glue to cure.
* Lack of moisture in the pen blank made a weak cure.
* Polyurethane glue was not applied sufficiently and spread well-enough to make good contact between the pen tube and the pen blank. Instead, the glue foamed to make it appear well-glued, but as I said above, the foamed polyurethane glue is not strong.
* Polyurethane glue was too old.
* Polyurethane glue was subjected to undesirable environmental conditions, such as extreme heat or cold, or moisture in the bottle.
* The root cause has nothing to do with the type of glue used and the pen would have failed with epoxy or CA just as well. Punky wood, dull tools, poor technique, lathe speed, etc. etc. etc.
* Pen Turner is unlucky. :p

(Note: Not all of these apply to the OP.)
 
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henry1164

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Per the last post.....glad I don't use poly glue. I'd spend most of my time in glue-up phase! Gorilla glue clear all the way. No water, no sanding (other than scuffing tube), no foaming, etc. etc. No failures with Gorilla glue clear!!!
 

penicillin

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Per the last post.....glad I don't use poly glue. I'd spend most of my time in glue-up phase! Gorilla glue clear all the way. No water, no sanding (other than scuffing tube), no foaming, etc. etc. No failures with Gorilla glue clear!!!
How long do you wait for it to cure?
 

henry1164

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How long do you wait for it to cure?
At least overnight. I never push drying time. Also, it would be fully 24-36 hours on acrylic blanks that have tube hole painted (after first overnight drying time for the paint to fully dry/cure).....taking no chances. To keep me from cheating on drying time if I'm ever having turner's withdraw, I keep a supply of wood and acrylic blanks/kits glued up and available for immediate turning!
 

penicillin

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Clear Gorilla Glue is good stuff. As I said above, it is a silane-based glue, not a polyurethane. I have used it on pens, and it works great - I think of it like epoxy, but without the messy mixing. Remember to store Clear Gorilla Glue in the light or it will yellow.

I want to comment and clarify my post above:

* I like and use polyurethane because it is forgiving with minor issues - the foaming action fills little gaps, covers small drilling issues, etc. To be clear, polyurethane won't fix a situation where the pen tube is obviously too loose, okay? Foamed glue isn't strong, but it fills minor gaps and is better than nothing.

* Although I was very very detailed in my procedure above, glueing pen tubes with polyurethane doesn't take a lot of time. It takes less time than epoxy, and it is less expensive than other glues for pen tubes, too. For me, it just works.
 

mnerland

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Clear Gorilla Glue is good stuff. As I said above, it is a silane-based glue, not a polyurethane. I have used it on pens, and it works great - I think of it like epoxy, but without the messy mixing. Remember to store Clear Gorilla Glue in the light or it will yellow.

I want to comment and clarify my post above:

* I like and use polyurethane because it is forgiving with minor issues - the foaming action fills little gaps, covers small drilling issues, etc. To be clear, polyurethane won't fix a situation where the pen tube is obviously too loose, okay? Foamed glue isn't strong, but it fills minor gaps and is better than nothing.

* Although I was very very detailed in my procedure above, glueing pen tubes with polyurethane doesn't take a lot of time. It takes less time than epoxy, and it is less expensive than other glues for pen tubes, too. For me, it just works.
Thanks, I kinda started this thread. I appreciated your detailed instructions. Actually the only thing I didn't do was put on gloves. Other than that I did everything you detailed. This discussion kinda took a life on it's own, but anyway......I just glued up 4 more tubes with my poly. I agree it is simpler and less expensive. I think I had a fluke issue.

Mike
 

leehljp

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Thanks, I kinda started this thread. I appreciated your detailed instructions. Actually the only thing I didn't do was put on gloves. Other than that I did everything you detailed. This discussion kinda took a life on it's own, but anyway......I just glued up 4 more tubes with my poly. I agree it is simpler and less expensive. I think I had a fluke issue.

Mike
Mike,

We take problems like this somewhat seriously, because we want to be able to help others when the problem arises. All of the information given was not for a life of its own but rather a preponderance of possibilities in order to track down the root cause. Knowing the root cause of a problem is what makes this forum so helpful.

And, granted, sometimes someone doesn't want to draw a lot of attention to their problem, but it is helpful to find out - Why did this happen? What was different about THIS time versus before. Finding the root problem helps in finding the correct solution and then that is passed on to others. Again, that is what this forum does well.

Could you tell us a bit more about your stabilizing fluid. Did you buy the box elder already stabilized or do it yourself? Knowing what to avoid would be very helpful to all. Thanks.
 

monophoto

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Mike,

We take problems like this somewhat seriously, because we want to be able to help others when the problem arises. All of the information given was not for a life of its own but rather a preponderance of possibilities in order to track down the root cause. Knowing the root cause of a problem is what makes this forum so helpful.

And, granted, sometimes someone doesn't want to draw a lot of attention to their problem, but it is helpful to find out - Why did this happen? What was different about THIS time versus before. Finding the root problem helps in finding the correct solution and then that is passed on to others. Again, that is what this forum does well.

Could you tell us a bit more about your stabilizing fluid. Did you buy the box elder already stabilized or do it yourself? Knowing what to avoid would be very helpful to all. Thanks.
Hank is right - the objective here is to do enough detective work to figure out what went wrong so that the community can know what to do differently in the future. Polyurethane glue is notorious for being very sticky and adhering to almost everything (especially your hands) except for certain plastics like HDPE. I'm certainly not an expert on stabilization, but I do understand that there are several fluids that can be used for this purpose.

I note that you purchased the blanks pre-stabilized. So unless the manufacturer screwed up the process (there is always the "Monday car" phenomenon), I would not be inclined to suspect a problem with stabilization. Instead, I suspect a problem with gluing.

I generally prefer polyurethane glue for gluing pen tubes even through is is horribly messy - mainly because it sticks so well to everything (which is why it's messy). The fact that it foams means that it can fill gaps. However, that foam has very little mechanical strength, so if you drill an oversize hole, polyurethane will fill that hole, but the bond will be weak. That leads me to add a few questions to the list that Hank started:
1. What was the tube diameter in the kit you were using, and what size hole did you drill?
2. Did you moisten the hole with water before inserting the tube? Adding moisture cause the bond to be stronger and helps the glue penetrate into the fibers of the wood.
3. Did you scuff the surface of the tube with sandpaper? Polyurethane will stick to smooth brass, but scuffing the tube provides tooth that creates a stronger bond.
4. How did you apply the glue - my approach is to first use a plastic coffee stirring stick to insert glue inside the hole. Then, I smear glue along the tube, and then rotate the tube while inserting it into the hole. I put it in part way, pull it back out, and then push it in again to make sure that glue is distributed as uniformly as possible inside the hole.
5. At any time, did you apply any acetone to the blank (perhaps to remove sanding dust)? Acetone will break down the bond and cause it to fail.
 
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penicillin

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Thanks, I kinda started this thread. I appreciated your detailed instructions. Actually the only thing I didn't do was put on gloves. Other than that I did everything you detailed. This discussion kinda took a life on it's own, but anyway......I just glued up 4 more tubes with my poly. I agree it is simpler and less expensive. I think I had a fluke issue.

Mike
Hi Mike - You're welcome and thank you. I hope I answered your questions. To be honest, my goal is to post for posterity. It is my hope that others will find the posts through general web searches, and the high level of detail will teach them how to do something, increase confidence, or help them figure out what may be missing or different from their own methods.
 
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