Poll question... worth extra for better resin performance?

[McKenzie Penworks]

It may not be an official motto but one of the driving concepts with DiamondCast is constant improvement. To that end we've been experimenting lately with some more industrial resin options and I think I've found one I like. It's a bit of a nightmare to mix, requires a rather complicated curing process, and well... it costs more money. A fairly measurable amount more in fact. So, before I buy a pallet full and jack my prices up I wanted to run it by some folks and get some feedback.

Currently our .81" x 6" (Standard Round) blanks sell for $10-12 on average depending on the pigment. Long 9" rods bump that up to $15-18.

From a "per pen" cost standpoint that means you can get Sierras made for $5-6 each in material.

That's an aggressively low pricing point that we've had now for 3 years and I've never raised it despite improvements like switching to a vortex mixer, heat curing, etc.

The new resin offers the following improvements over Alumilite Clear Slow:

• Harder - Easier to polish, more scratch resistant
• Stronger - Less prone to cracking (even if you abuse it drilling it...), and drop resistant
• Higher heat deflection point - Won't get soft if left in a hot car, can be machined at faster rates without failure (I'm looking at you Mr. "I can drill that last inch without clearing the bit")
• Clearer - Colors are richer and deeper, can do clear urethane rods that compete with acrylic
• UV Resistant - Won't fade over time, as mentioned above you can use clear urethane for items like kitless demonstrators

Rough guess... we'd have to add $2 per pen blank. On a Sierra that means $6-8 per pen in material vs $5-6 regularly.

 

[McKenzie Penworks]

Another video of some of our testing.. This is the ever popular "Oil Slick" in the new resin. Working on completing the pen today or tomorrow.

 

[jttheclockman]

Personally I think you and others that do the diamond casting have taken it too far. That diamond dust looks good in certain mixtures like a dark blue or black but mixing with colors like that multi colored one you show is overboard and to me would not buy. You see this on FB all the time. The diamond dust represents a classy more elegant blank look. I say this because how many people buy blanks for that classy look and will this new resin mean that much more. Pens have been made out of casting resin for years on end and many people here buy them or cast their own and have sold them and the buyers could not tell the difference even if you showed them. Just one man's opinion.

 

[McKenzie Penworks]

Technically... only we make DiamondCast™. It's a patent pending process we created that has "inspired" (I believe you recently used that term? ) others to do similar, just without the quality control and superior processes we have in place. ($20k mixer as a good example...)

I'm fully aware that sparkle is not for everyone. We do quite a bit of casting for folks as custom order that has no sparkle whatsoever.

Just so you know, that Oil Slick (rainbow colored) blank is the top selling color path by 3:1 margin. I really wish it wasn't because it is a huge pain to make! When folks stop buying it I'll be happy to stop making that one but for now we can never keep it in stock.

Yes, resin isn't new and many people have been using epoxy and Alumilite for many years to cast their own. However, we're the only shop set up currently to handle industrial urethanes properly. The idea being that we can offer a greatly improved resin over the hobby resins, but it does come with an increased cost. I would only charge the exact increase we see in materials, no additional margins despite the improved product.

A big driver of this change is the fact that you can find our DiamondCast material on Esterbrook, Franklin Christoph and other name brand pens now. These luxury pen companies are looking at ways to improve their product and that means we can bring those same improvements to the hobby market. As a pen maker, I sure as heck want to be able to tell customers their resin pen will hold up better over time, won't fade, and won't shatter if they drop it... Our ring making friends will also benefit from those properties.

 

[jttheclockman]

Well then you answered your own question. If you have the market setup already and doing well then go for any change you see fit. I am sure there will be a market. Maybe not so much as the small hobby market but higher end dealers and vendors. I was not saying anything about the so called oil slick idea, I do not like the diamonds in it as do many other colored blanks. I think diamonds I think highend. To me an oilslick blank is not highend. Cool look but not highend.

 

[McKenzie Penworks]

I primarily ask because we don't have to use the same resin for everything we make... With our setup we could conceivably continue using Alumilite for the hobby market and reserve the high end resin for special projects by request. I'm definitely going to use it for ring blanks because there's just no reason to avoid it on rings... Scratch resistance, fading resistance, etc are all highly desirable in a ring and they use small amounts of resin so the increase is negligible.

DiamondCast as a material is sought out by pen buyers (primarily fountain pen world) for our bright colors and sparkle. It is certainly positioned as a premium material... I think what you're saying is that you prefer to market diamond in more traditional color paths that may be a bit more timeless. Certainly the bright resin mixes are hot at the moment, but that could very well be a trend that changes quickly. The deep blues, browns, greens, etc are certainly more conservative and fit into that "high end" category better. We also have a whole line now using high end artist pigments that are about as traditional as you get. Hard to get more high end than pure lapis lazuli!

Oh... one final thought on the high end brightly colored diamond bit... Those super bright color mixes are extremely popular with our female customers. The idea that we have real diamond in it along with those colors is a big draw for pen buyers, diamond painting buyers, etc. I know my own wife has stolen several pens that used to be mine. (A sincere thank you for the feedback btw John... I know I'm talking to each point you're making but I hope it's not coming across as argumentative, that is not my intention at all!)

 

[leehljp]

I would bet (not actually) that the oil slick appeals to a different clientele than dark blue/black. I agree with John's ideas on this, and I do see a difference in those who purchase. If you are pricing the dark blue / black at the same price you are the oil slick, you could be leaving money on the table.

The oil slick with diamond dust has bling and color and draws one kind of crowd. The black / dark blue, to me, would have a more stylish classy look in the right pen. Similar to the difference in prices of a good fountain pen vs ballpoint-roller ball. We know that a well designed fountain pen will draw double the price of the same pen in roller ball/ball point because of the clientele. It is saying that a rollerball/ball point buyer will not pay what a fountain pen collector will. The black/dark blue diamond dust will appeal well in a high end higher priced pen, but the oil slick probably not nearly as much. If you put them side by side at the same price, a high end buyer would bypass the sale because they appear on the same level. It is psychological but that is the way things work.

A similar situation happens when adding a high end pen or two in the midst of regular pens to increases sales of the lower priced pens. It works. Again, psychological, but it works.

Just my opinion.

 

[McKenzie Penworks]

Hank, I charge more for Oil Slick than most colors and the finished pens actually command higher prices as well. In the fountain pen world, Oil Slick tends to sell almost immediately and at higher prices. Those two are just two I happened to test and had videos of... but assuming the brightly colored ones don't command a premium price would be a mistake.

 

[jttheclockman]

Tim I too am not trying to be argumentive so hope you are not taking that way. The thing is you are asking us if there would be a market for the higher end resin blanks over blanks that we all have been using and selling for decades. You say you have a formula that does not crack or scratch. If that is the case then probably can easily fit in the hobby world. Is it a must have, I say no. We are getting into two different products here. Your diamond dust and this new resin and you want to combine I am guessing. I am saying is to me and me alone that your diamond dust is overkill in some blanks and not knowing your markets and I do know you sell through various vendors I am sure it will be a selling point. Maybe as time goes by your price point can even decrease with higher sales.

Yes to the point about saving the diamond dust for highend blank material and market as such. Now I know many are doing similar and yes you have patents but that does not cover the idea. People are adding similar materials to resins and may not be to your standards but again the common buyer does not know the difference. Many many many examples show up here all the time. I just posted one not long ago about a segmented pen that I make and charge $150 for and on ebay someone is charging $50. I could not possibly make any money at that price. The same goes for your field and making a name for yourself and quality goes a long way so you maybe able to market said higher pricing for your products. All I can say is if you are going to do it for some pen lines then see what happens in the hobby market and make a decision that way. Good luck. But again take the diamond dust out of the funky colored pens. You are degrading the highend blanks. (In my opinion)

 

[McKenzie Penworks]

Absolutely didn't take it as argumentative at all and love the discussion, which is why I posted here.

For me it's not two different products, but rather DiamondCast with an improved resin base that has properties that are highly desirable. We'll have to disagree on the bright colors being better without sparkle. We can always make ya something custom though haha

 

[leehljp]

If I may ask, what are your pens' selling price range?

 

[McKenzie Penworks]

If I may ask, what are your pens' selling price range?

That's tricky because I no longer really sell pens... We produce material used by everyone from first time pen turners to major pen makers... I've always encouraged pen makers to charge a premium for DiamondCast pens because it does market well to buyers.

Example of a higher end fountain pen: https://www.esterbrookpens.com/sparkle/ or https://www.gouletpens.com/products/esterbrook-estie-fountain-pen-rocky-top

A few Franklin Christoph in stock: https://www.franklin-christoph.com/search?q=diamondcast

I sold the Queen City test pen to a serviceman that really wanted it for $100. I'd consider that a pretty good deal for him. We decided a while back not to make pens because we'd be competing with our customers. Most of my turning is for gifts or to test new concepts like this new resin.

 

[leehljp]

OHH, OK, I see the differences. You were speaking of blank sales, not pen sales. That is a different story. I was reading it as your Pen Sales. So, of course you will sell more oil slick blanks simply because of the attractiveness of the color and bling. Blank for blank on lower end and mid level, color will sell more, but on the high end pens, ($500 = $2500+) in "general" they are more "subtle" in appearances.

 

[jttheclockman]

Sure you pick two of the top pen makers and they sell all their pens in a high$$ range because they sell at highend pen shows. You have to remember we are where you started and most members are joining are there also. Your blanks probably do well because of the glitter. People like that. Not me. I am not your customer base at all. I make my own blanks and do alot of segmenting and on tube casting. I will buy the occassion blank and in fact I am waiting on some of Eugene's colorful blanks. Bought some unique colored blanks from Beartooth woods and waiting on those too. But again will segment with them and the materials I use do not have scratch resistant resin in them. Will that be a huge selling factor, I believe not but may play well with kitless pen makers more-so. All I can say is good luck and you have come a long way. Hope others will chime in for you and give their thoughts. Take care and be safe.

 

[greenacres2]

I'm all kit pens, and do little marketing so don't sell more than 50 pens a year.--most off my desktop at my office. DiamondCast twin barrels i'm mostly at $75-$80 on Cigars, $90-$120 on Jr. Gent and such. $50 on Sierras. Tim has cast a few custom colors for me--and when i pull my daily carry out at a local university it draws attention--and have had a few sales that way...with slightly better numbers. For our little company (65 ee's), the Andromena on an Exotic Blanks "Thank You" pen is the trophy for our employee of the month--with the diamonds adding to the aura.
Like an exceptional piece of timber, i find it important to let the turned DC blank be the show, with tasteful hardware being the stage.
earl

 

[MRDucks2]

Hey, Tim - Reading through the comments and thinking about it a bit I see the question a little differently. Would I pay more for a premium resin in a premium blank - Yes. Would I use the premium blank as often if my blank material costs were 33-40% higher than now. - Yes, because I only use the premium blank when doing something special. So while the answer is Yes in general, I only use those blanks in special pens/projects to begin with.
I don't think you will hurt your routine buyers. People who haven't tried your blanks yet may wait a little longer. As long as you demand is strong and your higher end buyers want something better and they are a decent piece of your overall sales, your risk seems small.
I remember Willie on Duck Dynasty commenting early on that he wanted to market the brand for all it was worth while he could because the show had a finite life and after a few years they would no longer be around. He wanted to get all he could while he was on top. They will always fans, they just have a more narrow audience now.
You are still rising. Get it while you can because one day something close enough to your quality will be mass produced by someone you can't afford to fight at half the price. Then you'll still have fans, but a more narrow audience.
Plus you can always buy Alumilite in the future and bring the original back out if you want more market after some of the glitter has worn off.
Just my thoughts. Best of luck going forward.

 

[darrin1200]

I think its not so much about will people prefer the more durable material. Of course they would, they would be silly not to. But as Hank said, if you put the two beside each other and they look the same, Most "weekend" hobbiest's will take the less expensive version.
Right now, I pour my own alumilite clear slow. So I generally don't buy alumilite blanks unless it is requested specifically or it is something I can't do. (ie... your diamond cast). Would I personally pay more for the the increased quality of the blanks in my pens, absolutely. But not if there was another right beside it for 20% less that looked identical.
I don't think it would be wise for you to offer the same blanks in two different quality levels. As a bespoke pen maker, I won't use a product that is indistinguishable from an inferior version. Because the increased polishability and durability are always desired. I would just upgrade your materials. The pricing increase is not that dramatic, and then you would just market it as an improved formula. You may see a slight dip in sales with the new price, but I am sure it will recover quickly.

Just my two cents.