Pensplus Experiment

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Cwalker935

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May 18, 2014
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3,506
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Richmond, Va
At tonight's meeting of the Richmond Penturners Club we will be demoing and discussing various finishes which will include CA finishes, French Polish, and Pensplus. I will be doing the Pensplus demo. In preparation, I applied Pensplus in three separate ways to a piece of black cherry. In each step I sanded to 600 with the lathe on and then longitudinally with the lathe off with each grit. After sanding, I applied 6 coats of Pensplus at high speed, buffing between each application (2 forward, 2 reverse, 2 forward). The differences in application occurred during the sanding process. I think the 3rd approach yielded the best result, however, I wonder if the walnut oil would darken lighter woods a bit.

#1 dry sanding to 600, burnishing with burlap, applying 6 coats of Pensplus
DFE64704-90DC-47F4-945F-E28F9A15B1B3.jpeg



#2 Applying Pensplus between each sanding grit, applying 6 coats of Pensplus

80E47E09-EC01-4871-9905-EA75309B01EF.jpeg


#3 sanding with walnut oil with each grit, 6 coats of Pensplus
CE790DB4-0198-4A0C-BAD6-084F1B29C883.jpeg
 
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MedWoodWorx

Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2021
Messages
602
Location
Greece
At tonight's meeting of the Richmond Penturners Club we will be demoing and discussing various finishes which will include CA finishes, French Polish, and Pensplus. I will be doing the Pensplus demo. In preparation, I applied Pensplus in three separate ways to a piece of black cherry. In each step I sanded to 600 with the lathe on and then longitudinally with the lathe off with each grit. After sanding, I applied 6 coats of Pensplus at high speed, buffing between each application (2 forward, 2 reverse, 2 forward). The differences in application occurred during the sanding process. I think the 3rd approach yielded the best result, however, I wonder if the walnut oil would darken lighter woods a bit.

#1 dry sanding to 600, burnishing with burlap, applying 6 coats of Pensplus
View attachment 346701


#2 Applying Pensplus between each sanding grit, applying 6 coats of Pensplus

View attachment 346702

#3 sanding with walnut oil with each grit, 6 coats of Pensplus
View attachment 346703
You mentioned burlap, is that the fibrous material that sacks are made of?
 

jrista

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2021
Messages
2,241
Location
Colorado
I am a big fan of pens plus. I am very sensitive to CA, and it seems getting exposed enough to cause health problems is all too easy for me. Pens Plus has been kind of a saving grace for me.

I couple of thoughts of my own, with my own experience with PP.

  1. I sand to 2000-3000 grit with standard papers. I used to sand to 800, but I've found that sanding the wood to the point where it really shins on its own, produces a better final finish in the end. Sanding to 2000+ grit, gives the wood itself a really nice shine.
  2. I wet-sand with the last few grits (I guess, from about 1200 or 1500 on) using the Dr. Woodshop filtered pure walnut oil. I find that this particular walnut oil does not seem to have any undue darkening. I think, as with any finish, you get that normal, standard "darkening" (which, in all honesty, I don't know if that's truly what's happening...I think it is more that unfinished wood scatters light differently, and when you apply a finish the scattering changes, which looks different). This walnut oil looks almost totally clear. I wet sand with it, to make sure it penetrates, because if you just try to apply AFTER you reach 2000+ grit, you usually won't get very good penetration.
  3. Let the oil dry for a while, and re-coat as necessary to get sufficient saturation and a nice shinyish satin finish before applying the pens plus itself.
  4. With pens plus, I've found its NOT a "build up" kind of finish. I have gotten the best results, when I apply a liberal initial coat, and friction polish that until I get a pretty glass-like finish. I will then let this dry for a while. Depending on the wood, curvature of the surface, exposure of endgrain in the surface, you may find that the wood still soaks up some of the pens plus. You might see some dull spots after this. I will then do touch-up passes, lighter in the amount of pens plus I use, to correct these dull spots. I'll keep working at it until there are no more dull spots, and I have a glassy finish over the entire blank. I don't know whether to call this multiple coats or not...its a friction polish plus Cosmolloid 80H synthetic wax (same high end, high quality, ultra crystal clear was that is in Renaissance Wax, that really expensive museum finish). As with any friction polish, subsequent coats really just blend into a single coat. But I guess technically, I am applying more than one "coating" of the finish, with my initial+touchup passes.
I can get some super shiny results with this:

EV1KgwW.jpg


One thing I have experienced with PP. In cold enough weather, it can be tough to apply properly. When we had a couple of real cold spells a few weeks back, I couldn't apply it properly. Even before the real DEEP cold hit, it was cold enough (teens, low teens) that even heating my shop, I was barely getting to 40F. I had some trouble getting my pens plus finish to come out as shiny as pictured above, and I had more trouble with those dull spots. I was taking each set of finished blanks in the house as quickly as I could, to allow them to dry or "cure" at around 68 degrees, which seems to help. Still, the cold did seem to introduce an increased hassle factor. At the time, I was told that CA may not actually be a solution to that, as it can have its own issues when cold. I also tried "Craft Coat", which I first picked up in late fall. I actually like that, its a urethane finish, doesn't seem to cause me any breathing problems, but it too, became challenging to apply. I have not actually tried to apply poly during the cold... I've wondered if it might be easier, however I do know that poly, as wonderfully nice a finish as it is (one of the best!) it DOES introduce yellowing, which I'm not always a fan of on all woods. I do like the neutral effect that Pens Plus seems to have most of the time.
 

MedWoodWorx

Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2021
Messages
602
Location
Greece
I am a big fan of pens plus. I am very sensitive to CA, and it seems getting exposed enough to cause health problems is all too easy for me. Pens Plus has been kind of a saving grace for me.

I couple of thoughts of my own, with my own experience with PP.

  1. I sand to 2000-3000 grit with standard papers. I used to sand to 800, but I've found that sanding the wood to the point where it really shins on its own, produces a better final finish in the end. Sanding to 2000+ grit, gives the wood itself a really nice shine.
  2. I wet-sand with the last few grits (I guess, from about 1200 or 1500 on) using the Dr. Woodshop filtered pure walnut oil. I find that this particular walnut oil does not seem to have any undue darkening. I think, as with any finish, you get that normal, standard "darkening" (which, in all honesty, I don't know if that's truly what's happening...I think it is more that unfinished wood scatters light differently, and when you apply a finish the scattering changes, which looks different). This walnut oil looks almost totally clear. I wet sand with it, to make sure it penetrates, because if you just try to apply AFTER you reach 2000+ grit, you usually won't get very good penetration.
  3. Let the oil dry for a while, and re-coat as necessary to get sufficient saturation and a nice shinyish satin finish before applying the pens plus itself.
  4. With pens plus, I've found its NOT a "build up" kind of finish. I have gotten the best results, when I apply a liberal initial coat, and friction polish that until I get a pretty glass-like finish. I will then let this dry for a while. Depending on the wood, curvature of the surface, exposure of endgrain in the surface, you may find that the wood still soaks up some of the pens plus. You might see some dull spots after this. I will then do touch-up passes, lighter in the amount of pens plus I use, to correct these dull spots. I'll keep working at it until there are no more dull spots, and I have a glassy finish over the entire blank. I don't know whether to call this multiple coats or not...its a friction polish plus Cosmolloid 80H synthetic wax (same high end, high quality, ultra crystal clear was that is in Renaissance Wax, that really expensive museum finish). As with any friction polish, subsequent coats really just blend into a single coat. But I guess technically, I am applying more than one "coating" of the finish, with my initial+touchup passes.
I can get some super shiny results with this:

View attachment 346760

One thing I have experienced with PP. In cold enough weather, it can be tough to apply properly. When we had a couple of real cold spells a few weeks back, I couldn't apply it properly. Even before the real DEEP cold hit, it was cold enough (teens, low teens) that even heating my shop, I was barely getting to 40F. I had some trouble getting my pens plus finish to come out as shiny as pictured above, and I had more trouble with those dull spots. I was taking each set of finished blanks in the house as quickly as I could, to allow them to dry or "cure" at around 68 degrees, which seems to help. Still, the cold did seem to introduce an increased hassle factor. At the time, I was told that CA may not actually be a solution to that, as it can have its own issues when cold. I also tried "Craft Coat", which I first picked up in late fall. I actually like that, its a urethane finish, doesn't seem to cause me any breathing problems, but it too, became challenging to apply. I have not actually tried to apply poly during the cold... I've wondered if it might be easier, however I do know that poly, as wonderfully nice a finish as it is (one of the best!) it DOES introduce yellowing, which I'm not always a fan of on all woods. I do like the neutral effect that Pens Plus seems to have most of the time.
I have followed pretty much the same procedure with good results but then i noticed that some of my pens would develop a sticky feel to the touch after some time. Has that happened to you ever? I have switched to wet sanding with dr's walnut oil to a high grit (2000 or 3000) and then some more oil that i try to burnish with some paper towels. It is a very "natural" finish, nice to the touch and looks; it also seems to work fine with hardwoods.
 

jrista

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2021
Messages
2,241
Location
Colorado
I have followed pretty much the same procedure with good results but then i noticed that some of my pens would develop a sticky feel to the touch after some time. Has that happened to you ever? I have switched to wet sanding with dr's walnut oil to a high grit (2000 or 3000) and then some more oil that i try to burnish with some paper towels. It is a very "natural" finish, nice to the touch and looks; it also seems to work fine with hardwoods.
I've never had a sticky feel...HOWEVER, I also DO NOT touch the finish, regardless of whether its the first "coat" or subsequent touchups, until its dried in a room temp room for at least 8 hours. If you touch the finish right off the lathe, its not hardened. I did get some fingerprints stuck in the finish the first few times I tried using it. That was over a year ago now. I use this little tool I created, a dowel, sharpened on one end, with two nuts and a washer sandwitched tightly between them at the other, to get the blanks off the lathe without touching them.

As long as you let the finish cure well, then it doesn't seem to have problems. I even left this one pen, a kit I tried that ended up being extremely cheap and I really didn't like it, out in the sun for hours, then picked it up and played with it, even scratched at it with my fingernails, and it had no issues. Left it out there the rest of the day in the hot sun, and it still didn't have any issues.

I think, as long as the entire finish, wax surface coating and all, is allowed to dry and cure properly, you shouldn't have issues with it. I have been using one of my earliest PP finished pens for over a year now on my desk, and it still has the same feel to the finish that it did when I first made it.

I will say this...actually. Some of my earlier pens with Pens Plus, I used just too darn much of the finish. I've mentioned a few times, IME, this is not a "build up" finish...you don't layer it on and on and on until its real thick. In fact, if you do that, I think that may in fact lead to problems down the road. The finish definitely feels different, maybe even "soft", even after drying for a day, if you layer it on thick. I use a "liberal" coat the first coat, to make sure it really covers the whole blank...but, I do not try to build it up these days. I find that this is more like a thin film finish, where the oil and shellac penetrate the wood, while the wax rises to the top and provides a protective coat above it all. The wax, if you apply this finish correctly, should literally be utterly crystal clear. It shouldn't have a soft satin look to it...it should look like glass, or the surface of an incredibly clear pond. It should be CLEAR. This is the main thing about Pens Plus...its not just a friction polish, its got that Cosmolloid 80H synthetic crystal wax in it...those crystals are small and regular in size, which is actually in contrast to most natural wax crystals which are large and irregular (which is why bee and carunauba wax give you more of a satin sheen...they scatter light much differently than C80H.)

I have done just the oil finish myself as well on a couple experimental pens. I haven't tried to sell them, as in all honesty, being a pure oil, I really do wonder if after some time, it would get sticky? With the pens plus, that wax ends up coating the outside of the pen, and when it hardens properly, it gives you a fairly hard, crystal clear, and fingerprint-resistant (which does indeed seem to be the case based on my own experimentation) finish. It is NOT as hard as CA, of course...but it seems to be fairly durable. Now, with woods, they can be dented, or potentially get more of a deep or gouging scratch, if you stick your pen in a pocket with say keys. I have a keyring part that, actually was my first part finished with Pens Plus, probably near a year and a half ago now, and it held up very well over that time. Being on my keychain, it did end up with some gouges...but at the same time, I stupidly chose to use flame boxelder as the wood, which is rather soft.

Anyway, I do think there is a proper use for PP. That involves not touching the finish until its cured, and curing in my experience requires about 8 hours or so at around room temp. Cold weather, can definitely hamper curing. Very warm weather, seems to exacerbate the amount of dull spots that can appear (maybe the DNA is evaporating too fast?) I let my blanks dry in the house on this little pen blank drying rack I created, just two pieces of wood glued together in an A-frame, with pairs of wood pegs set vertically, across the length of both sides of the frame. I'll use that little dowel tool to get the blanks off the lathe. Each peg in the rack has a dimple at the top, where I can put the point of my removal tool, tilt it up, and drop the blank over one of the dowels in the rack. So I never touch the finish until at least 8 hours have passed. OFten I'll do a set of blanks in the evening, bring the rack in to dry, and leave it overnight, so its frequently 12 hours or so before I touch them.


One thing I have learned is that, not all the dull spots are "real". Sometimes, just on the surface, little bits will appear dull. I now take a clean microfiber cloth to each blank to clean them up before I decide if they need any touchup. Usually, most blanks, around the ends, where the endgrain can soak up the finish, they do look dull, and most blanks go back onto the lathe for touchup there. I will usually keep working at those ends until they shine like glass too.
 

MedWoodWorx

Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2021
Messages
602
Location
Greece
I've never had a sticky feel...HOWEVER, I also DO NOT touch the finish, regardless of whether its the first "coat" or subsequent touchups, until its dried in a room temp room for at least 8 hours. If you touch the finish right off the lathe, its not hardened. I did get some fingerprints stuck in the finish the first few times I tried using it. That was over a year ago now. I use this little tool I created, a dowel, sharpened on one end, with two nuts and a washer sandwitched tightly between them at the other, to get the blanks off the lathe without touching them.

As long as you let the finish cure well, then it doesn't seem to have problems. I even left this one pen, a kit I tried that ended up being extremely cheap and I really didn't like it, out in the sun for hours, then picked it up and played with it, even scratched at it with my fingernails, and it had no issues. Left it out there the rest of the day in the hot sun, and it still didn't have any issues.

I think, as long as the entire finish, wax surface coating and all, is allowed to dry and cure properly, you shouldn't have issues with it. I have been using one of my earliest PP finished pens for over a year now on my desk, and it still has the same feel to the finish that it did when I first made it.

I will say this...actually. Some of my earlier pens with Pens Plus, I used just too darn much of the finish. I've mentioned a few times, IME, this is not a "build up" finish...you don't layer it on and on and on until its real thick. In fact, if you do that, I think that may in fact lead to problems down the road. The finish definitely feels different, maybe even "soft", even after drying for a day, if you layer it on thick. I use a "liberal" coat the first coat, to make sure it really covers the whole blank...but, I do not try to build it up these days. I find that this is more like a thin film finish, where the oil and shellac penetrate the wood, while the wax rises to the top and provides a protective coat above it all. The wax, if you apply this finish correctly, should literally be utterly crystal clear. It shouldn't have a soft satin look to it...it should look like glass, or the surface of an incredibly clear pond. It should be CLEAR. This is the main thing about Pens Plus...its not just a friction polish, its got that Cosmolloid 80H synthetic crystal wax in it...those crystals are small and regular in size, which is actually in contrast to most natural wax crystals which are large and irregular (which is why bee and carunauba wax give you more of a satin sheen...they scatter light much differently than C80H.)

I have done just the oil finish myself as well on a couple experimental pens. I haven't tried to sell them, as in all honesty, being a pure oil, I really do wonder if after some time, it would get sticky? With the pens plus, that wax ends up coating the outside of the pen, and when it hardens properly, it gives you a fairly hard, crystal clear, and fingerprint-resistant (which does indeed seem to be the case based on my own experimentation) finish. It is NOT as hard as CA, of course...but it seems to be fairly durable. Now, with woods, they can be dented, or potentially get more of a deep or gouging scratch, if you stick your pen in a pocket with say keys. I have a keyring part that, actually was my first part finished with Pens Plus, probably near a year and a half ago now, and it held up very well over that time. Being on my keychain, it did end up with some gouges...but at the same time, I stupidly chose to use flame boxelder as the wood, which is rather soft.

Anyway, I do think there is a proper use for PP. That involves not touching the finish until its cured, and curing in my experience requires about 8 hours or so at around room temp. Cold weather, can definitely hamper curing. Very warm weather, seems to exacerbate the amount of dull spots that can appear (maybe the DNA is evaporating too fast?) I let my blanks dry in the house on this little pen blank drying rack I created, just two pieces of wood glued together in an A-frame, with pairs of wood pegs set vertically, across the length of both sides of the frame. I'll use that little dowel tool to get the blanks off the lathe. Each peg in the rack has a dimple at the top, where I can put the point of my removal tool, tilt it up, and drop the blank over one of the dowels in the rack. So I never touch the finish until at least 8 hours have passed. OFten I'll do a set of blanks in the evening, bring the rack in to dry, and leave it overnight, so its frequently 12 hours or so before I touch them.


One thing I have learned is that, not all the dull spots are "real". Sometimes, just on the surface, little bits will appear dull. I now take a clean microfiber cloth to each blank to clean them up before I decide if they need any touchup. Usually, most blanks, around the ends, where the endgrain can soak up the finish, they do look dull, and most blanks go back onto the lathe for touchup there. I will usually keep working at those ends until they shine like glass too.
You raise an interesting issue that i haven't thought before;room temperature and PP curing. I work in an unheated workshop and this may have a negative impact to the PP curing. As i mentioned earlier when i contacted the Dr himself, he mentioned that non perfectly dried wood can also prevent the PP from fully curing.
Since my process is pretty much the same with yours (i also don't touch the finished pen and leave it overnight to dry) i suspect the problem is caused from one of those factors.
Here is the thread i started for anyone who is interested, cheers.

 

jrista

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2021
Messages
2,241
Location
Colorado
You raise an interesting issue that i haven't thought before;room temperature and PP curing. I work in an unheated workshop and this may have a negative impact to the PP curing. As i mentioned earlier when i contacted the Dr himself, he mentioned that non perfectly dried wood can also prevent the PP from fully curing.
Since my process is pretty much the same with yours (i also don't touch the finished pen and leave it overnight to dry) i suspect the problem is caused from one of those factors.
Here is the thread i started for anyone who is interested, cheers.


Hmm, hadn't considered the dryness of the wood myself... I wonder if that explains why I had some trouble with a set of pens I made recently. Not only was it cold, but, it was probably not entirely dry wood, as I cut blanks out of some branches that I cut off my plum tree in my back yard. The wood is A-MA-ZING!! LOVE IT! But I am thinking, it was dry, but not completely devoid of moisture...

I definitely had problems with the cold in general, though. I had problems with both PP, and Craft Coat. Neither went on well. The craft coat on one pen I was able to clean up in the end. I can probably put a few more coats on, sand it back a bit to smooth it out, then polish it up an still have a success...but, it definitely doesn't go on well in the cold.

I haven't tried wipe-on poly in the cold, but, i suspect it too would have problems. Most of these finishes have some kind of volatile in them that evaporates, which as I understand is part of how the finish cures properly. In the cold, those volatiles won't evaporate properly, or even at all, and I think that can definitely lead to problems.
 
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