Pen Turning Ethics

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Tn-Steve

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Hey Gang,

Not trying to stir the pot, but I have a question about "Honor among Turners". Lets say that TommyTurner creates a really great pen, maybe something special with a closed top, or combines parts from several kits to create a 'Franken-Pen', or does something kitless. Something that is unique, not just a very nice implementation of existing kits / designs / techniques.

Would you think it's right for someone else who has seen that pen to copy it, sell it as one of their products? (Let me make clear right now, this is NOT in regard to any incident that I've heard of, but more a general question about ethics and behavior).

I know for my part, I wouldn't feel right doing something like that. Falls in the category of "Intellectual Property Theft" for me. The very least I would do is contact TommyTurner, tell him how much I liked what he did, and if it would be alright for me to use some of his ideas on my own.

Steve W
 
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My good friend, John Devost (devowoodworking) summed it up nicely.

Treat people and ideas and property like you would like to be treated yourself.
The moment you turn around and kick / bite the hand that fed you, you are buggered.
 
Steve,

While I would LOVE to tell you that no one copies, the fact is it is happening all the time. When I came to the IAP a couple years ago, I had never THOUGHT of a pen made from a shell case (thanks Sylvanite, for the proper term), let alone a corn cob. Now, BOTH are commonplace on this forum. You know who introduced them??? Neither do I. But they were accepted and copied.

BUT, when the original corncobs were made, they were CA reinforced, NOW many of them are stablized - in other words, the method has been IMPROVED. For a long time on this forum there was a spirit of competition. Every pen was a little more intricate. There are still a couple of members who set new trails to follow.

So, copying is going to happen. But, so will improving. When we compete, we all benefit from the ongoing improvements - so what is the RIGHT course of action???

YOU have to decide for YOU.
 
There's quite a bit of space, most of it in the eye of the beholder, between copying and adapting a design. There are very few people here who consistently do original work. And another small group is dedicated to imitation as a form of flattery.

I'm about to 'adapt' a design myself because I like the effect. Am I being unethical? I don't think so. And I'm the guy who has to be satisfied.

Marc
 
I would add that from your original question it is unclear where "someone else" saw TommyTurner's pen. If TommyTurner posted it here in the show off your pens I would believe there is a (right or wrong) presumed openess by TommyTurner to have others follow suit.
If it was seen at an art show, private sale... I would think that MAY not be the same thing.

Either case it would probably be best to ask first.
 
marcruby said:
There's quite a bit of space, most of it in the eye of the beholder, between copying and adapting a design. There are very few people here who consistently do original work. And another small group is dedicated to imitation as a form of flattery.

I'm about to 'adapt' a design myself because I like the effect. Am I being unethical? I don't think so. And I'm the guy who has to be satisfied.

Marc
Click to expand...

Will you post pictures of your adaptation? (You need NOT answer, but if you do post pictures, others will try to adapt further, if you don't............)
 
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I would be honoured if any turner could take an idea of mine (not that I have any:wink:) and make use and profit from it. Acknowledgement would be appreciated and also further contributes to the theme of community and sharing. I do take issue with companies who sneak around fishing for ideas without contributing and finding our designs (again, if I had any) in their catalogs a month later.
 
my work is considered art. as such, it is copywright protected. there are varing levels of protection depending on how much documentation you wish to do. if someone asks about copying my original art to sell, i will sign a licensing agreement to allow them to do that. it protects me from the people who mass produce items. as for our cottage industry, i have no problem allowing anyone to copying my work. i use bits and pieces from all over as inspiration and as a way to learn. if someone really had heartburn about their design, then it's a simple matter to say "do not reproduce without written permission of the artist" in bold letters. this way ther's no question about whether it's ok or not.
just to be clear, i have no problem with anyone in the IAP copying my designs in part or as a whole. i think if we share, we all improve the product for our our customers and our own skills. pretty cool if you think about it..........bear
 
Right or wrong, if you post a picture of something new/original, chances are VERY good that it will get copied in one form or another.

I know that there are some members of this forum that will not post pictures of some of their pens; they want to keep the designs to themselves. Can't say as I blame them. Eliminate the variable (show others a design), eliminate the problem (have others copy a design).
 
It is an unfortunate part of the technology boom that not only is it more
difficult to protect original ideas, but that the act of showing these ideas
creates the opportunity for people to copy them, and perhaps through
over-exposure to outright theft of copyrights, it has come to be the norm
rather than the exception. Wow, do I love run-on sentences?

If we stop and think about it, how many of our avatars are not outright
copyright violations? How many of our signature lines? How many of our links?
If we didn't create it ourselves, there's a good chance we don't have the
right to post it. But this has become the accepted norm. Nobody even thinks
about it. Perhaps we have come to think that if we didn't physically put our
hands on it to 'take' it, we didn't do anything wrong? Or maybe there's a
feeling that is so much of our own labor goes into duplicating something, it
couldn't be wrong.. after all, it is our effort that produces it.
I don't have answers, just wondering.
 
What I find "unethical" here is the FACT that too little credit is given when members who either adapt or copy a design do not acknowledge such an act. This is NOT limited to pens either. Personally I think that it is courteous and ethical to at least acknowledge where the "inspiration" came from. The info does not have to be totally factual to the exact time/place/event, but some do not even make an attempt at this form to comply with etiquette. JMO
 
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Some of the things to consider as mentioned earlier: We all make pens from kits and slimlines are the ones some of us started with and pretty much they all look the same. There will be variations in anything we make especially with acrylics and other materials since I have yet to see 2 acrylics that are the same and in our own minds eye we feel they are different from others even though they may be made of the same material there will always be a difference. I do not feel the people here copy anyone elses products exactly nor claim they created the first unless they did create a unique item (cat poop blank lol) which I don't thnk we will imitate. I for one get inspiration from the pictures I see here and it gives me ideas of what can be not oh can I copy that and sell it for less that the original creator. Everyone here is an artist in their own way and that is the way it should be.
What really sucks is when big business sees your creation and mass produces the same thing and sells it for alot less than you did there by ruining your creation as unique and denying you future profits. I for one carve wooden spoons and other kitchen utensils as well as make pens (only a beginner) but I will not buy any mass produced kitchen tool when I can make it myself and be proud of what I, as a craftsman accomplished and my wife loves my products as do those I have made them for. I am learning we as a nation are going back to handmade originals in alot of areas where we are tired of buying junk made overseas in slave labor camps with unknown ingredients and chemicals.
Anyways that is how I feel and wish you all a good day.
 
For a truly one of a kind design...

For a truly one of a kind design, I'd have to contact the original artist and see if we could come up with a license agreement. I'd love to shart part of my profits with the artisan who helped me earn them. Of course, I am not talented enough to copy anybody at this point.:biggrin:
 
Ed (ed4copies) wrote it well and succinctly about Eagle the other day and I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him:

His (Eagle's) reaction, however, would be to encourage you to differentiate yourself from his work. While many believed he did not share his methods in detail for reasons they deemed "selfish", he actually hoped people would move BEYOND his methods. So, he reasoned, if he TOLD you how HE did it, what would motivate YOU to find a better way??

I agree fully with Ed in what he wrote about Eagle. I admired Eagle's stance - for the purpose of advancing a design or moving beyond his methods. In THIS case it is about advancing a design or method and I approve copying if it helps in advance the design or method.

However I believe everyone has the right to protect or restrict copying of their work if they so wish. It never hurts to write and ask. For the first one to show a new and different work, and someone wants to copy it - I believe it is respectful to at least acknowledge them when copying that work.
 
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The internet is a double-edged sword. The same information that allows others to steal designs and copy ideas also provides all of us with new ideas we never thought of, access to supplies, materials, and techniques we never would have learned otherwise. Since there is so much in pen turning that has to do with pure skill and practice, by sharing all of our ideas it forces us all to 'raise the bar' in order to be recognized for our abilities. If you really want to be known for your designs, then do something that few are even capable of doing (just look at Akbar24601's awesome work).

Besides, it's only the people doing this as fulltime income that should be worried about it anyway. How many pen sales have you really lost from another turner at your craft show or whatever that stole your idea? We're all so spread out for the most part that our customers don't even come across other pen turners with copied ideas, so don't sweat it. Very few of my customers have even heard of hand turned pens at all before. That being said, I personally withhold many of my best designs from here because it is my livelihood and I have mostly internet based sales that do compete with many other turners selling in the same 'arena'. But it doesn't stop me from participating in the IAP because I have more to gain than I do to lose, just like everyone else.
 
Seer said:
Some of the things to consider as mentioned earlier: We all make pens from kits and slimlines are the ones some of us started with and pretty much they all look the same. There will be variations in anything we make especially with acrylics and other materials since I have yet to see 2 acrylics that are the same and in our own minds eye we feel they are different from others even though they may be made of the same material there will always be a difference. I do not feel the people here copy anyone elses products exactly nor claim they created the first unless they did create a unique item (cat poop blank lol) which I don't thnk we will imitate. I for one get inspiration from the pictures I see here and it gives me ideas of what can be not oh can I copy that and sell it for less that the original creator. Everyone here is an artist in their own way and that is the way it should be.
What really sucks is when big business sees your creation and mass produces the same thing and sells it for alot less than you did there by ruining your creation as unique and denying you future profits. I for one carve wooden spoons and other kitchen utensils as well as make pens (only a beginner) but I will not buy any mass produced kitchen tool when I can make it myself and be proud of what I, as a craftsman accomplished and my wife loves my products as do those I have made them for. I am learning we as a nation are going back to handmade originals in alot of areas where we are tired of buying junk made overseas in slave labor camps with unknown ingredients and chemicals.
Anyways that is how I feel and wish you all a good day.
Click to expand...

On that same thought.....we had a 'Blacksmith' at our local turners meeting this last week......he had some very nice hand made turning tools. I really like his roughing gouge, his prices weren't bad and I'll probably go up there sometime and check out his shop. He hasn't put them online yet, but when he does, I'll let you all know.

Like I told my wife, if it's as good or better than the mass products stuff.......I'll support our local artists!!!


Barney
 
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Every time I put a tool to wood I create my own work, if it was not inspired from a member here, or from a book I would lie, but just like a fingerprint it is still my minds eye that tells me what and how it will turn out. I can't tell you, and I am sure you all do the same, look at a half turned blank and say" what the hell is this" and cut it off and start fresh. I can not repay the thanks to the people who here have given me info on what I was doing wrong, or saving me money by inspiring me to try to do something I had no idea was even posible. I do hope that I can inspire someone like myself to do some of the things I am working to better myself with. Even though I have taken some prizes at jurried shows, I still am not feeling my work is the best it can be. I don't post photo's for 2 reasons, one I am still not good enough to get the photo's up on the site, and two, I am not proud enough to say my work is enough to inspire anyone yet. But everyday I work to improve my product.
 
I do have a question about this. If someone who has been turning pens for a long, and is not a member of IAP (shocking I know but I think there might be a few out there), comes up with new designs on his own and then joins IAP, and sees the same new designs made by someone else, who owns the original idea? (I know, long run-on sentence.) Now this is assuming that neither person met each other before and just independently came up with the design. If that new person would post his designs claiming credit, there would be some who would accuse that new person of stealing ideas from the person who has been established on IAP longer. (ie-the dogpile from a few months ago) How do we prove who owns a design idea even if there is a copyright or trademark?


Notice - I am just trying to discuss please don't flame me.
 
Rob, Do a search on Ebonite (vulcanized rubber). You'll discover that two people supposedly came up with the process independently within a couple years of each other.

It does happen and nothing is wrong with that.

But if one person can prove that the other was inspired or copied their work, then they would have a legal basis to stop them.
 
Mike,

Yes, they have a legal basis, but probably not the MEANS!

Defending a patent or copyright is expensive. I believe it was JimGo who once told me $20,000 is a nice start, total could run to SIX figures!! That's a LOT of pens.

So, it's a question of ethics. IF you can live with yourself, that is pretty much the acid test. For some, that means steal everything and who cares, for others there is a much higher standard. WE (IAP or society) have little control over others' ethics.

FWIW
 
This is a further drift, but to further what Mike just said, as a further example:

Alexander Graham Bell filed patent for the telephone only a hours before Elisha Gray filed his, have you ever heard of Elisha Gray?

In any event discoveries, ideas, improvements coincide quite bit...
 
Do a search on Ebonite (vulcanized rubber). You'll discover that two people supposedly came up with the process independently within a couple years of each other.

It does happen and nothing is wrong with that.

But if one person can prove that the other was inspired or copied their work, then they would have a legal basis to stop them.
Click to expand...


But that is my point - how do you prove that? Who here, when designing a pen blank, checks for patents or copyrights? Most of us turn to enjoy. We like the challenge of coming up with something unique and different. When we spend so much time worrying about who is stealing what then we lose that enjoyment.
 
Mike

I agree with you and as you say it is very hard to prove. As an example, Dale Chihuly (a glass artist) filed a a lawsuit against a pair of glassblowers, whom he accused of copying his work. But was found unsuccessful as the glass blower federation (GBF) said that Chihuly's designs feature basic shapes therefore any novice would be able to create the spiral glass which feature in many Chihuly's compositions.

Sorry if its a little confusing, but I think that when you post here, you have an expectation that others will use your ideas, that's what makes this board so great

of course that's just my opinion...

Steve
 
I recently made an tool similar to one Rifleman1776 made, which is one similar to one called a Skogger,which is almost a copy of a similar tool.
I made mine a little bit different, I believe the original was made from Stainless Steel, which is quite expensive. I also thought it was too short for precise control, of course this was just my opinion!
Frank posted where to get the inserts so I made one, having had to buy a box of the inserts and having a CNC mill and a lathe, I made more changes to the one made by Rifleman1776, I found a source for good quality Rohs compliant steel bar stock made in the U.S A. and the company that makes the carbide inserts and started making some for sale.
So I guess I really should thank Frank (Rifleman1776) for allowing me to semi copy his Idea. Also the fellow that made the original tool which is called I believe an Easy Rougher. I felt there isn't the necessity of making this type tool out of Stainless, and not doing so has allowed me to market the tool I make at an affordable price. As far as pen designs,unless you are designing every element of the pen such as the ones that Skiprat or several others do, or you have your item patented or copyrighted there isn't really much to be said.
One of the basis for this forum is education and most of that is by copying or trying to copy a more advanced turner, look how many people there are turning pens similar to Eagle's masterful work, and since they didn't bug him to write a tutorial on it he would be proud and congratulating them on their innovations, and figuring out how to do it themselves, not whining about them almost copying his designs.
As a former instructor I always looked forward to one of my students showing me up with something that they had learned based on what I taught them or that they learned out on their job or figured out on their own, I think that is how we are supposed to evolve, learn and grow. :peace:
 
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SteveH said:
Mike

I agree with you and as you say it is very hard to prove. As an example, Dale Chihuly (a glass artist) filed a a lawsuit against a pair of glassblowers, whom he accused of copying his work. But was found unsuccessful as the glass blower federation (GBF) said that Chihuly's designs feature basic shapes therefore any novice would be able to create the spiral glass which feature in many Chihuly's compositions.

Sorry if its a little confusing, but I think that when you post here, you have an expectation that others will use your ideas, that's what makes this board so great

of course that's just my opinion...

Steve
Click to expand...
Yeah, basically if the pair of blowers visited Chihuly's shop , then started mimicking his designs, he MIGHT have a case. Otherwise proof is very hard to come by.

In the Vulcanized Rubber case, one man was in the US (Goodyear), and the other in the UK (forget his name). The funny thing is the guy that got the first patent isn't the one that gets the most credit (at least not here).

As far as the cost, it ain't cheap to be sure. But the first step isn't too painful and works sometimes and that's a simple Cease and Desist letter from an attorney. It can be a fair wake-up call and will cost you a couple hundred tops.
 
There were two scientists that simultaneously developed the Periodic Table of the Elements, one Russian and one German. They were both identical, except that Dmitri Mendeleev used his table to make predictions about elements that hadn't yet been discovered. They later were discovered and were found to be in line with the Table. And now Mendeleev is credited with developing the Periodic Table. Now, nothing we are working on is nearly as important or influential as that, but it just goes to show you that if an idea is good, there are billions of people out there that are capable of discovering it, and they don't necessarily have to know each other. However, history will remember the one who did the BEST version of the creation, not necessarily the first. :)
 
Might be helpful to revisit the copyright issue...

"COPYRIGHT MYTHS"

The following notes were taken from a presentation given by Peter Meza (a Colorado Lawyer for the Arts member), of Colorado Springs, titled "Copyright Myths" (http://www.lawyersforthearts.org/). To learn more check out this website: http://www.copyright.gov/ .

Copyright protection comes from the U.S. Constitution. 1976 Copyright law passed in Congress.

As soon as you create the work, copyright exists.

Copyright doesn't protect ideas, but the expression of ideas – the work itself is protected. Others can't copy literally what you did. Wanting to turn a vessel from a watermelon is an idea; your creative expression (actually turning the melon) is the expression, and copyright-able.

If you want to sue someone for infringement, you must register & pay a $35 fee for the copyright on an individual piece of artwork. This can be done after the infringement happens. Placement of a copyright notice on a work denies an infringer the right to raise an "innocent infringement" defense if sued. You must use the copyright symbol, ©, Artist's name & year/date. This includes photographs made of your copyrighted work.

An artist does retain the copyright to works sold, but it is a good idea to put this info in writing. Mailing a letter to yourself or an email with an attachment of the work doesn't work.

You cannot copyright a title of a work – Anything copyrighted needs to have an element of creativity.

If a piece is created as "work for hire", the artist does not own the copyright. For commissions, the artist must put in writing that he/she owns the copyright, or the commissioner may own the copyright. Check it out.

If you own the rights of a photo of a Celebrity, you cannot use the photo anyway you want. The Celeb has rights to control use of an image. If you use a model, or photograph a recognizable person, you should get a "release form" signed if you intend to sell the images or distort them. If you own negatives of another person's photos, you don't automatically own the right to make prints & sell them.

Owners of artwork do not have the right to distort, mutilate or remove work from public placement without contacting the artist.

If you use only a small percentage of another person's artwork, it is not OK. Using other people's artwork for educational purpose can sometimes be OK, but it is best to get written permission before using other people's artwork in any format. If you use a large percentage of an author's work, you are in a sense robbing that artist of income.

You can do a parody of another artist's work, if you don't use a huge portion of the work.

Grey area is creation of a website. If both the web master and the person hiring the web master have input into how the web site ultimately looks (creative content), there needs to be a written contract stating who owns the web site.
 
GouletPens said:
There were two scientists that simultaneously developed the Periodic Table of the Elements, one Russian and one German. They were both identical, except that Dmitri Mendeleev used his table to make predictions about elements that hadn't yet been discovered. They later were discovered and were found to be in line with the Table. And now Mendeleev is credited with developing the Periodic Table. Now, nothing we are working on is nearly as important or influential as that, but it just goes to show you that if an idea is good, there are billions of people out there that are capable of discovering it, and they don't necessarily have to know each other. However, history will remember the one who did the BEST version of the creation, not necessarily the first. :)
Click to expand...


Elemental, my dear Watson. :wink:
 
Thanks Ed for the information. That is enlightening!

Brian,
For many years, if you asked someone with a little knowledge on the subject of "Radio" who invented it - they would generally say that Marconi invented it. But it was actually Nikola Tesla.

Even between these two fellows and including Edison, we can see two distinct behaviors on ideas and inventions.

Tesla certainly had his distractors but he constantly overlooked patent royalties for the purpose of advancing the development and use of the invention. Others were proud of their invention and were more strenuous in the defense of the patent and promotion of "who" made it.
 
In the case of kit pens, we are all using the exact same parts that must in some form or another meet the fittings at each end. variation between those ends can be staggering to be sure. So take the idea of Celtic Knots for example. since someone has posted a picture of one should I never make one myself?
In wood turning in general this sort of theft is an argument that has been going on since the lathe was invented. there are definable design components in general turning though that are not necessarily present in penturning specifically. Where the line is that is considered theft of anouther persons idea is not clear, and never will be.
It finally comes down to ethics and personal choice. and what is fine by me may very well not be fone for you. I woudl make a Celtic knot and never give it a seconds thought while others may be racked with guilt.
as far as this group. if you post it expect it to be copied.
 
Interesting discussion, but nothing that I'm going to get my knickers in a knot over. Because, and please, no one take any offense at this, I believe that most of pens here (with the few obvious exceptions) aren't really unique enough worry about. Where the difference is evident though, is in the skill levels of the people creating them. I'd also like to echo the comments made by Brian Goulet earlier, about how little impact any "copying" is likely to have.

I've only recently started turning pens (my output to date is around forty), but I've somehow already accumulated blanks and kits for another sixty. (I know, you sages warn all us newbies about the addiction! But do we listen? No!) My point is, in just a couple months I'm already into this nonsense for about a grand. Now I'm starting to see where I might like to try and flog a few of these to recover some of my expenses; and, I'm sorry, but just because someone posted a black chrome Sierra with a red acrylic blank, doesn't mean that I won't try to sell one; but if I do sell one, I really don't think it is going to affect anyone's bottom line either. Like Brian said, we're all so spread out (all over the world from what I've seen here, and elsewhere) there won't be a lot of competition in our local markets. In fact, perhaps as more and more people sell pens, interest and demand for them will increase.

When I first considered turning pens I visited every website I could find; I watched every online video I came across; I read tutorials until I was nearly blind; and I read what seems like thousands of posts. What impressed me most about pen turners, is the same thing I found when I joined my local woodturning guild - a passion for your craft, and an incredible selflessness when it comes to sharing ideas and techniques with your fellow turners. I can't think of any other associations where this level of generosity is so prevalent.

Speaking of the local guild, at the last meeting the President's Challenge was to bring in something segmented, and so I did up a segmented pen (the only pen from about sixty members present). I don't even remember anymore what article I'd read or what picture I'd seen that gave me the idea, but when asked about it at the meeting, I admitted that it wasn't an original idea; that I been inspired by something off the internet. That was the best I could do to acknowledge this unknown source, but it was good enough for me.

Now, one last question for Brian. Why not post more pictures here? Since your signature includes a link to your website (and an impressive site it is) they're simply a mouse click away anyway!
 
In the case of the Celtic knot how many tutorials have been put on here, I wonder how most of the Automobile industry got by using 4 round wheels and tires on so many different cars, but lets not forget the NSU Prinz or the trusty DKW or the mighty GoGo Mobile all of which only had three wheels and tires. Oh I guess they got forgotten.
 
Spats139 said:
Now, one last question for Brian. Why not post more pictures here? Since your signature includes a link to your website (and an impressive site it is) they're simply a mouse click away anyway!
Click to expand...
I don't mind posting my website b/c I DARE anyone to try to copy it and put one together themselves. I don't think I would wish that amount of work on any of you! And thank you for the compliment:rolleyes:
 
There really is no way of proving who invented a lot of things. I received a PM from a member who was accusing me of being unethical because I make and sell coffee bean blanks cheaper than the person who invented them on IAP. My family has been making pens for over 20 years and we had made coffee bean pens better than 8 years ago, long before IAP was ever founded. The person had the right idea, but had the wrong information and decided to act on it. I am not claiming that my family made the first coffee bean pens, since we got the idea from someone else and they also had it passed on to them. The way we used to do it was a whole lot more labor intensive and involved glueing the beans on one at a time and then filling in with epoxy.
By the way, my grandfather who passed away over 15 years ago used to carry a "shell case" pen, that he had received from someone that he served with in WWII. I'm pretty sure that the guy who made it for him wasn't the inventor either.
 
I think we hope someone else will experience our idea's. It is nice when the idea is used and accredited to the original idea, but not always necessary, and sometimes not always possible. We post not just to show off, but to inspire others.
 
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