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I saw a post this morning discussing a new pen kit from PSI and it got me to thinking. As a new penturner, it would be very helpful if there was a central repository of reviews of pen kits including commentary from those that have used them. Up to this point I have been ordering one or two of various styles, etc. and trying them out, some of which I have been very disappointed in the quality. It would have been nice to avoid those. Just a thought.
Richard
 
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Thats an excellent idea Richard. In fact There are a few to use as an example over at the Guild. Rich K. does all the reviews for CSUSA and Bill Baumbeck and then posts his review, he does a very nice job. Rich just finished reviews of the new Baron kit and a couple monthes ago he did the reviews for the new Statesman, Jr. Statesman, Ligero andJr. Gentleman's pen and pencil set.

Wayne
 
Only problem with that is the "GUILD" is a pretty snooty group.....very impressed with themselves..... and the average new hobbyist is not encouraged to join up!!!
 
Wow, Randy, sorry to hear about your's and some other's thoughts about the Guild. I know there are a number of Guild members including myself who are very active on this forum. I have quite frankly never: "been impressed with myself"!! I always strive to do something well, and then to try to better that if I can---I'm a work in progress---and I always will be.
 
Randy,
At least at one time I was considered a big aponent of the guild.
and your comment comes across strong to me. I have people that will no longer speak to me for far less harsh words.
anyway. the Guild is not for the Avarage beginner, just the opposite. It is an attempt to gather together the cream of the crop. I do not appose the Idea of that. I Appose some of the methods used. and wether they are actually accomplishing that and other goals they have. admission requires Unique work. I think we have a couple of entries in the recent pen contest that would gain acceptance. but there is no real way to know beforehand.
as for it's members. many of them contibute to this sight. most of them I find to be the friendliest and most giving to the penturning craft. they are anything but stuck on themselves. one (the originator) has single handedly ran the Yahoo group for years.
one reason I know of that the guild was formed for was to advance the Art of boundries of penturning. personally I have seen more advancment from our pen contest than I have seen come from the Guild. that is simply lookng and asking myself are they doing what they planned to do.
I wish they would but I don't see it.
enough about that anyway. i've gotten myself in enough touble over the guild in the past.
 
Tom et al...there are a vast majority of good folks in the Guild. Every single one of them that I have had any dealings with. It's unfortunate that a couple of bad apples make the bunch seem spoiled. For my fellow IAP members...please believe me when I tell you that the folks at PMG are REALLY good folks. Of course, the ones that are also members here are the BEST! [8D]
 
I don't agree with Randy's statement. I think that the PMG is a great idea and the work there is phenomenal. As Daniel said there is a lot to be learned and the Guild members are great at sharing their knowledge.. but I doubt that I will ever be approved for membership because of the requirements ~
<b>"To approve you as a member and Master Pen-Maker, you will need to provide us with some evidence of your work, a master-piece writing instrument you have made. This could be a new pen design you have made, a new technique brought to pen making, something brought to a new level of perfection, or something done in a very artistic way, resulting in a pen that is not just new but also beautiful (and, of course, functional). Notice the repeated use of the word 'new'! Clearly an element of creativity is required. Just use of a beautiful stabilized blank is not sufficient, we are looking for work that shows advanced, innovative, and artistic skills"</b>
I make what I feel are very good pens to the absolute best of my ability... they sell well and my customers send me more customers... but I am not an experimenter. I do look at ways to improve some kits, but I am not into "creating" a new and exciting pen design.
I feel that the PMG should recognize penmakers that not only are innovative, but also those who have taken that extra step to create beautiful pens using standard kits and materials, but have done so in a way that definately sets them apart from the hobbiest or part time pen dealer. There are "pen dealers" out there that I would not send my worst enemy too... and then there are PEN DEALERS whose work I truly admire and try to emulate. I am by no means the be all and end all of pen makers.. but I do strive to consistantly up the quality level of my pens with each and every one I make.
 
Not smart enough to agree or disagree with any of the above. But my powers of observation haven't faded yet.

I just went to the PMG web site. I find that I can read discussions. Go to links. And see about three members photo albums, all the other ones are apparently off limits to ordinary folks. Apparently the only way to see all the Master Pen Makers work is to be one. I was not impressed.
 
Can not comment on the other sites, as I have not participated. I just happened onto the IAP first and decided to set up shop here, seamed friendly enough for me and is.

But we should be just as cordial to other pen turning groups as they all do, what we all do. No matter what the level of turning is. We all make pens.( and other things) And some day we we all need one another for some reason or another. What goes around, comes arounds. No need for bad carma. Anthony
 
Looks like I touched a nerve, here, which was not my intent, originally. But since the cat is out of the bag, I guess a few more comments are in order.

Firstly, in no way did I mean to cast aspersions upon any individual member of the Guild. I’m sure Daniel is correct is stating that many(even most) of the members are very fine people. My comments were directed towards the organization and its underlying philosophical position.

Secondly, it is my belief that the single most important thing a master pen turner can do to further his craft/art is to bring new people into the activity and share with them the benefit of his/her experience. Inclusion, not exclusion, is the lifeblood of any organization. Given that these 58 people are the cream of the crop, they don't hold a monopoly on good ideas and skillful execution. My feeling is that the craft/art will be better served by everyone sharing their ideas and experiences than by the efforts of a few "experts" locked up in their own little room.

I’m a new pencrafter and have been helped tremendously by the members of IAP……haven’t learned a thing from the Guild!!! New Guild members don’t just grow on trees, you know. They develop over the years at places like IAP. Even the New York Yankee baseball team has a farm team to which they give tremendous support, rather than totally ignore!!

Years from now when I have the skills and talent that make people willing to purchase my pens for hundreds of dollars, I will still be looking to share my ideas with and learn from the thousands of IAP members and not the fifty some odd members of the Guild.

And for just a moment, let’s get back to the original reason for this thread. I think it would be an outstanding idea to add one more forum to the list……..one that some already think is to long……and set up a kit review section of our own. I understand there is something like this already available at the Guild; but if I and 775 other IAP members read their reviews and have questions, we won’t be permitted to ask questions if we need help!!

And now I'm off to the lathe to learn a bit more about my new craft!!
 
Originally posted by penworks<br />.....And some day we all need one another for some reason or another......
Click to expand...

Anthony: I don't disagree with your basic thinking, Only problem is that if "Joe-average-penturner" goes to the Guild with a question, they are not going to let him ask it!!
 
I also went to the PMG Yahoo Group and read what I was allowed to. Two or three members will allow you to look at their work in which I thought was very good. It was eye candy to me. I hope to be that good one of these days. What I found missing was photo's of the work that got them into the Guild.
I would love to see the standard they have set for a person to become a member.....Chuck
 
I was lucky and started looking for info here first.
Never was a real big fan of Yahoo's pop-up and never ending ads.
Heck I guess that I never even realized how lucky I was.
Merry Christmas to all
 
I'm sorry, but I'm new here. Maybe I've missed it, but I've been pretty impressed about the lack of flamming that I see on other forums that I participate in. It seems that a simple topic degraded pretty quick here. As I see it, Wayne simply said that reviews at the "Guild" might serve as a good "example" on how that might be accomplished here. I'm not familiar with the "Guild". I'm trying to learn about penturning and had hoped that someone could either direct me to some meaningful reviews of pen kits or my post could serve as a catalyst to develop a resource for novices such as myself as well as you seasoned vetrans. Does anyone have anything to add on that subject? I apoligize in advance if I have now offended someone.
Richard
 
Originally posted by BogBean
<br /> What I found missing was photo's of the work that got them into the Guild.
I would love to see the standard they have set for a person to become a member.....Chuck
Click to expand...

Chuck,

Try this link.

http://www.turtlewoodworks.com/submit/appsubexamples.htm

Lots of neat pens. You can actually get to this page through the front page of the Guild. Click on the "application," then after that page loads, "masterpiece" hyperlink.

Quite frankly, I am not sure how I got into the Guild. I don't flaunt the fact that I did. I am proud that the elders thought enough of my work to let me in.
 
Randy,
Your last post on the Guild touches an alot of what I had to say. in addition I see the reaction many penturners have... such s yours and you are in a prety big crowd withthat.
now to the topic of this converstion. tis is one more item I will include on my list of things to bring to future board meetings. in the past it has also ben suggested that instructions be written for the various pen kits. in this case a prototype page was developed. the problem I see is that these ideas do not often materialise unless some single member takes the labor on themselves. i hope to help our board figure out a way to actually get these sort of ideas rolling and participated in. such as a committe to actually do the work while the members are incouraged to submit either requests or send in rough drafts, photos or whatever else is needed. I see this as a great project for first time turners to contibute to, it has always seemed to me that the details are much more noticed the first time you try something.
 
Originally posted by Randy.
<br />Only problem with that is the "GUILD" is a pretty snooty group.....
Click to expand...

Some of us are just quirky. [:D]

I think one of the things that the Guild does is to inspire innovation. It did for me, and still does.

The contest that was here was designed to do the same thing.
 
Richard...This site is pretty much "flame-resistant" but we're not "flame-proof". As a whole, we're like family, so we occasionally don't see eye-to-eye. Don't let a little friendly bickering make you think we're not close, because we are.

As for your suggestion, I have taken it quite seriously. I don't have a source for you at the moment. BUT, I will make every attempt to get such a library started. Most of the information is already here on existing kits. It is simply not organized. We also have turners who turn anything new that comes down the pike. We'll ferret that out as well.

With a little luck, I can cajole a few of our more literary members to write reviews AND processes, instructions, etc. One place for you to start for a few of the kits is the instructions and library links on our front page. By the way, as you gain experience and insight, we'd love to have you contribute in these areas as well!

For the rest of you, how about it? Who wants to be the first to write a review? Instructions? Processes? Sign up with me or just email your stuff to Jeff. Or ANY Board member! We'll get it posted! [8D]
 
....[/quote]

Anthony: I don't disagree with your basic thinking, Only problem is that if "Joe-average-penturner" goes to the Guild with a question, they are not going to let him ask it!!
[/quote]

Actually, you can ask questions here, or on the yahoo penturners, and it may be a guild member that answers. The members of the guild always seem to be willing to help out anybody, regardless how experienced they are.
 
Hi Tim,
Thank you for the link. Some very nice work in those photo's. How long have most of the Guild members been turning?....Chuck
 
Originally posted by BogBean
<br />Hi Tim,
Thank you for the link. Some very nice work in those photo's. How long have most of the Guild members been turning?....Chuck
Click to expand...
Chuck,
I think it varies. I really don't have a good answer for you. I have actually been doing this for about a year, but I wasn't working a real job, so I had a lot of time to practice, experiment, read messages, etc. For most poeple this is a hobby, so my year may be equal to several years of part time turning.
 
Randy and others,

I would like to clarify a couple points here regarding the Pen Makers Guild. First, the PMG was never devised to teach beginners how to make pens. It was added to the already existing Yahoo Penturners Group where most of the PMG members answer questions every day. Richard Kleinhenz has put in endless hours developing the site with FAQs, photo albums and all sorts of other aids to help everybody of ALL skill levels. The PMG exists to take penturning to a new level and to promote it into markets where users of kits were previously looked down upon. One accomplishment can be seen by looking at the cover and "centerfold" of the Winter 2003 edition of the American Woodturner magazine. Another will be released soon in the Pen World magazine. This is a high-end pen collectors magazine. Members are now starting to represent the PMG in high-end shows. There is truly an effort by the PMG leadership to promote the craft. I hope you can see the distinction between the purpose of the PMG and that of the Penturners group. They compliment one another, but are very different.

The following link should provide you with a webpage where you can see all of the members' photo albums: http://www.turtlewoodworks.com/pmggallery/galindex.htm
This link is attached to every message should you need it in the future.

I hope we can all try to understand the benefit of establishing skill recognition in the IAP and not have to endure the "discussions" that have already been hashed before. Let's make this a positive learning experience for all of us.
 
Hi Everybody!

I don't think we need a new forum just for reviews of pen kits. Most are discussed thoroughly on the main Penturning forum often enough. Besides, we do have an ongoing project to put together a Pen Kit Instruction Library. Reviews of the various kits could possibly be included in this section. I'm not sure about that! But one thing we do encourage here at Penturners.org is the submission of articles on the topic of penturning from our members. If that article takes the form of a review of a particular kit, that would be great!

Next, to the idea that the Guild is snooty - well, of course we are! [:D] Just kidding! The concept of a guild is to only admit those who meet the standards of the group. Because of this, if you're not a member you don't get to post on their site. It's their site, and this is fair. They are pretty generous by allowing everybody to read their discussions. Most Guild members are also members of other forums, and are very helpful and knowledgeable people! One of the two founders of this forum, and the IAP, is a Guild member! (Who could that be?) Ask your questions here, and you will likely have a Guild member answer you.

Now, as for the Guild hiding the pictures of their members pens - Hogwash! When the Guild site was formed, one of the first things they acknowledged was that the photo albums provided to the YAHOO Groups were inadequate! So they set up their photo album on a non-YAHOO page! If you go to the main Guild page at this link:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PenMakersGuild/

about half way down the main page you will see some BIG RED LETTERS that say "PEN GALLERY", and those letters are also a link to the outside pen gallery of the Guild. Here is a link you can follow to that Pen Gallery:

http://www.turtlewoodworks.com/pmggallery/galindex.htm

Try it! You'll like it! There are some of the most amazing pens there that I have ever seen! There is enough inspiration there to satisfy even the most jaded penturner! I know, because I get pretty jaded at times, and that site refreshes and energizes me!

Now, as far as the Guild's policies on gaining membership, good or bad they are what they are. A guild is exclusive. I happen to agree with the opinion that the highest calling of a "Master" is to introduce apprentices to their craft. It is one of the reasons Jeff and I started this site and this organization, to share penturning information. And I think this place has become the best source for penturning information on the web (I'm prejudiced on this topic!). But don't expect all sites to be the same, or have the same goals. The Guild site has different goals, and I believe they meet their goals quite well! Different strokes.

But don't shut yourself off from penturning knowledge just because you're not allowed to be a member at this time. Go there, look at the pictures, read the discussions, and learn from some of the best!

Opinionated? Who's opinionated? [8D]

Scott.
 
I agree with the use of the library rather than a separate forum for reviews. Even with my limited foresight, I see a time when our library contains reviews of kits, articles, instructions, processes, tool evaluations and so much more. I don't see these things as needing forums for discussion necessarily, but I think they may spark some posts and that's a good thing.

The more we grow the membership, the more talent we gather. I know that we will soon have volunteers to take on some of these important aspects of building out the site. I, for one, can't wait.
 
In response to Chuck's question---I can't answer for other members, but I've been turning for a little over ten years---there was some idle time now and then----but, about two years ago or more I started visiting some pengroups online. I think the first was one PSI had, and then I found the Yahoo penturners site---and, quite honestly I have learned a great deal from the Yahoo site, and I know Rich K has given a lot to that group. I can't tell you how much it helped me to grow by the knowledge others shared which is also happening in the IAP. In general, I've found penturners mostly willing to help others to grow in this activity----whether it be on Yahoo or IAP---and I continue to visit both. And I gotta tell ya---Tim is a quirky guy---in fact, he's gonna start posting his pens in my Guild album---thanks so much Tim!!!
 
Mr Prez...As a newcomer to woodturning I have found the library articles here very helpful, especially the instruction features. Hopefully, there will be more coming soon! Hint [}:)]
 
Hi Scott,
Now, as for the Guild hiding the pictures of their members pens - Hogwash!

The photo albums I was talking about being locked out of is in the link section. I tried the red pen gallery link but it did not work at that time but it is working now. Thank you for the link....Chuck
 
Jim,

Thank you for your post, as it said much that I was planning to say. I found the Yahoo penturners group first, then Daniel pointed me to this group. I have found the Guild members to be most helpful when I have posted questions on the Yahoo group. No, I am not a member of the Guild. To complain that they won't let me in is like a "C" student saying the National Honor Society is too snooty to let him in. Just because a group is listed on Yahoo does not mean everyone can join. If you want to learn this craft, join here and at the Yahoo PenTurners group, read, learn, ask, contribute, and just maybe one day you can be a Guild member. In the meantime, as we used to say back home "Kwit-yer-bitchin"!!
 
I am happy with the IAP and at the moment being a new pen turner am not ready for the Guild. I like see the masters work but need to concrete on what I am doing now which is learning this exciting new art. I hope one day to be able to submit a pen to the Guild but if not I am sure I will learn a lot from this group. Everyone can't be masters but we can all learn. A Merry Christmas to all and Happy Holidays.
 
Goldentouch,
You have a good, positive attitude. Keep doing what you're doing. As you gain confidence, try something new with materials or pen design. If you want to be in the guild, you can certainly do it. It just takes persistence. When you submit an entry, don't take it personally if you aren't immediately accepted. Take it as a challenge to develop something newer and better. Besides, spending more time in the shop is not exactly what I call punishment. [:)]
 
Good advice Jim. It took me a very long time before I felt I had something worthy of submitting to the Guild. I feel I was fortunate to be admitted---quite honestly, if I had not been, I would have kept trying when I felt my work was worthy. Now, it takes a physical submission---so the work can be seen first hand---which I think is good. I believe I was the last member to be accepted on the basis of photos. I would say that I hope many here will eventually be accepted into the Guild---and good luck to all who make that attempt!!! My understanding too is that those voting on acceptance into the Guild do not know who's work it is when they see the work submitted. If some here have tried and not yet been accepted---I do hope you'll try again!!!

A friend in penturning always,
 
I did not read all of the post but I am referring to the first post. When new turners ask me about kits I show them a catalog and pick out the kits not to buy because seem to look cheap, and not what they look like in the catalog. I have a large show box full of kits that did'nt cut the mustard for one reason or another. There should be a pen kit review.
 
I know this is an old topic but I feel that another point of view, and question or two, are still valid. Any guild or association that accepts members based on the quality of their work can only use arbitrary and subjective standards. This is not technical stuff that can be measured. Human judgement is (and rightly should be) always subject to question and criticizm. Here in Arkansas we have several influential knife making groups. One designates a knifemaker based on the judgement of a panel of old-time 'masters'. A, now deceased, famous Arkansas knifemaker, named Jimmie Lile, who has knives owned by past Presidents and royalty was never eligible to even be judged simply because he used a technique not accepted by the 'masters'. That certainly is something open to criticizm. As an answer, there are several knifemaking organizations, all very fine, that utilize different standards. By its very nature, the PMG will never be without it's critics. But it's purpose, as I understand it, to promote quality and innovation is laudable. I am sure that as time passes the Guild standards will evolve into a form more acceptable to more people. As for it's critics, I would ask 'what are you doing to promote penmaking?.
 
The "guild" is an awesome group it makes stepup your craft also make exercise your brain and try new different and igenious ideas.[:)]
In a sense they are the "masters" of penturning, they had their trail and errors too like us newbies[:D]. I hopefully to enter the pearly gates of the "Guild" in the future....[:D]
 
I tried to learn from their site as well. What I learned was that they all climbed up into the treehouse and pulled up the ladder.

Hope they are happy with each other..
 
patsfan I think that your comment is an insult to many individuals both here at Penturners.org and at the Yahoo Penturners group that give freely of their time answering questions and giving their advise to anyone who wants it. We have several Guild members that belong to both of the sites and their ladders are always down for anyone who wants to climb them. Many of these people are also friends of mine and so I take that as a personal insult as well. If you had read some of the posts you would have found who many of these people are, and after you have been here for a while you will reccognize their names.

Wayne
 
my observation was on the site itself,especially as compared to this one.

If I have insulted you personally, I am sorry.
 
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Hi Mike (patsfan),

One of the big problems with the Guild site is that it is at YAHOO! Making it better/worse is the fact that they realized the limitations of working within YAHOO from the start, and chose to house their photo gallery elsewhere. This is better because it is better organized and has more room, worse because some people can't find their way there. If you look on their main page, look for the words "Pen Gallery" in big red letters - that is a link - click on it and it will take you to the gallery. As far as the messages on their site goes, it is much easier to read them using the search feature built into our site here at Penturners.org. Look on our main page in the left column for Penmakers Guild Search, and click on that. Using our search strips all the garbage from YAHOO out of the messages.

This is if you want to access the information there. If not, then don't! We have a fine group of experts here as well, and should be able to help with most questions you might have!

Scott.
 
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