Pen Kit Photos

[jeff]

I've been toying with an idea and thought I'd see what you all think...

What if we had a forum section called something like "Pen Kit Experiences" wherein we had a thread for each pen kit.

The first post of that thread would be some basic statistics about the kit; weight, # of parts, a photo of all the pieces, platings available, links to vendor instructions, drill & tube measurements, etc.

Followup posts by any of you could include photos of completed pens with that kit, tips on construction, things to watch out for, variations on the "usual" assembly, etc. We'd be looking for more than "I like/hate this kit", although I think we'd turn thread rating on so people could rate the kits.

Just thinking out loud again here. Give me your thoughts!

ALSO, if you vote that you'd support the idea, tell us:

• the top five kits you'd like to see in the list.
• what info you'd like to see in the first post.

 

[PenMan1]

Sounds great, EXCEPT, could we make 2012 a year to eliminate the word "kit" from our vocabulary?

Pen components sounds so much more attractive! Also, each component set could be broken out by manufacture, along with a list of IAP vendors who stocks them.

If we "really decided to get froggy", we could also attach links to instructions, bushing sizes. I'll bet every vendor here would grant permission to post their instructions here.

This could really drive lurkers, if only members could access this information!

Respectfully submitted.

 

[D.Oliver]

Especially when I first started turning pens, this would have been invaluable. I don't have any preference on top five kits, but one piece of information that I would find useful is for a particular kit is if there are similiar kits that use differnt names such as Creekline & streamline & comfort or Sierra's & wallstreets.

 

[larryc]

What Andy said

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

Andy I've been harping on that for three years.....COMPONENTS...COMPONENTS!

 

[skiprat]

I kinda like the idea in principle. I might be a bit concerned that it would end up being a free advertising forum though.
What would happen if there was more than one ( or perhaps even several ) posts on the same pen kit? Would the most popular one with the most ratings become the 'one' or would all still be listed.
How would this forum differ from our current Review forums?

 

[bitshird]

The only problem I see is there are quite a few resellers, and many of them are members, and that unless each vendor of a specific "set of Components" were mentioned in the particular "set of Components" it would give some an unfair bias. The one thing I have to agree on is as Derek said, where there are how many names for one particular set of components, and yes I think the word kits "sucks"

 

[bitshird]

Wow strange minds do think alike !!!:thunder::monkey:

 

[G1Pens]

What about variations in names of "kits" For example...Mesa, Wall Street, Sierra, etc. I realize there are difference in each one but would you have a thread for each one, or one thread for everything similar. Other than that, I really like the idea...and I really do prefer the term components...but sometimes the work kit just makes more sense.....after all isn't really a component kit?

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

I agree to an extent but hopefully most of us are aware of the rules and can live by them. I do think that most rule breakers happen by not knowing rather than seeing how far we/they can go.

I kinda like the idea in principle. I might be a bit concerned that it would end up being a free advertising forum though.
What would happen if there was more than one ( or perhaps even several ) posts on the same pen kit? Would the most popular one with the most ratings become the 'one' or would all still be listed.
How would this forum differ from our current Review forums?

 

[Haynie]

I like the idea but wonder how you are going to handle ALL of the various incarnations associated with prettymuch the same pen.

Take for example all of the sierra types.

I don't know what pens I would put as the top 5. But I would wholeheartedly support pinning scans of the instructions at the top. The shop gremlins keep stealing mine.

 

[jeff]

I like the idea but wonder how you are going to handle ALL of the various incarnations associated with prettymuch the same pen.

Take for example all of the sierra types.

I don't know what pens I would put as the top 5. But I would wholeheartedly support pinning scans of the instructions at the top. The shop gremlins keep stealing mine.

I guess my approach would be to ignore the fact that what several people sell as differently named (or identically named) bags of components are exactly the same thing, and identify them by Vendor... OR just agree on the fact that some are identical and give in to that reality and have a single thread identifying multiple sources.

We'd probably only want to post links to vendor instructions. We've had copyright complaints when posting the actual file.

 

[jeff]

I agree to an extent but hopefully most of us are aware of the rules and can live by them. I do think that most rule breakers happen by not knowing rather than seeing how far we/they can go.

I kinda like the idea in principle. I might be a bit concerned that it would end up being a free advertising forum though.
What would happen if there was more than one ( or perhaps even several ) posts on the same pen kit? Would the most popular one with the most ratings become the 'one' or would all still be listed.
How would this forum differ from our current Review forums?

Just a few rules perhaps:

I'm thinking one post per member.
If you make it or sell it, don't post.

One could argue that the second rule would prevent us learning some gems of information from the guy who supposedly knows the most about his kits, but there should be enough members making them to provide the information.

I have not thought far enough to make rules. We have so many rules as is, maybe we don't need ANY rules and if I see something I don't like, I'll deal with it.

 

[ctubbs]

All of the previous ideas are helpful. The different names for the same 'components' are confusing at the least, however, the Seria (sp) style has so many variants with some better than others how do we distinguish between them? This is not a complaint, just a question. Over all Jeff, this is a great idea and will be a wonderful tool for the beginner as well as the experienced artisan. One central location to find all the needed information for any pen any of us will be trying to construct would be a God send. Thank you for all your effort you put into this site.
Charles

 

[jeff]

I kinda like the idea in principle. I might be a bit concerned that it would end up being a free advertising forum though.
What would happen if there was more than one ( or perhaps even several ) posts on the same pen kit? Would the most popular one with the most ratings become the 'one' or would all still be listed.
How would this forum differ from our current Review forums?

I envision they would all be listed.

The current reviews forum could serve this purpose, but I thought some structure behind this would be helpful. A database of sorts without getting too complicated.

Have a nice photo of a pen you made with that kit, post it.
Have a helpful tip about making those pens, post it.

You know, simple!

 

[ed4copies]

As a consumer who has turned and sold several versions, I can tell you with certainty that all slimlines are not created equal. Those obtained from Rizheng are very different from those of Berea.

The same statement is true, to a slightly lesser extent, of the Sierra. If you state certain facts about the Rizheng version, they do NOT apply to the Berea version. I am also aware of sources who do not make that differentiation and sell both kits, interchangeably.

IF you are striving for accuracy, these points must be acknowledged and the components from each manufacturer will receive different "grading".

This also assumes that you, the user, KNOW who your supplier bought the components from. I have seen posts where the user is asserting it is a Berea Sierra kit and I am quite certain it is NOT. But, as a vendor, I will not be allowed to assist in making this determination.

 

[Linarestribe]

I don't have a list but would love to see some info on high end kits.

 

[Finatic]

Should be an excellent resource.

 

[Smitty37]

I try

Sounds great, EXCEPT, could we make 2012 a year to eliminate the word "kit" from our vocabulary?

Pen components sounds so much more attractive! Also, each component set could be broken out by manufacture, along with a list of IAP vendors who stocks them.

If we "really decided to get froggy", we could also attach links to instructions, bushing sizes. I'll bet every vendor here would grant permission to post their instructions here.

This could really drive lurkers, if only members could access this information!

Respectfully submitted.

I'm all for that.

 

[jeff]

Sounds great, EXCEPT, could we make 2012 a year to eliminate the word "kit" from our vocabulary?

Pen components sounds so much more attractive! Also, each component set could be broken out by manufacture, along with a list of IAP vendors who stocks them.

If we "really decided to get froggy", we could also attach links to instructions, bushing sizes. I'll bet every vendor here would grant permission to post their instructions here.

This could really drive lurkers, if only members could access this information!

Respectfully submitted.

That's my thought as well on the forum being members only.

The library is that way now; visitors can see the thread titles only.

 

[Lenny]

All of the previous ideas are helpful. The different names for the same 'components' are confusing at the least, however, the Seria (sp) style has so many variants with some better than others how do we distinguish between them? This is not a complaint, just a question. Over all Jeff, this is a great idea and will be a wonderful tool for the beginner as well as the experienced artisan. One central location to find all the needed information for any pen any of us will be trying to construct would be a God send. Thank you for all your effort you put into this site.
Charles

One way I would like to see them sorted is by bushing/tube sizes.

There are so many it gets confusing keeping track of them.

I keep a spredsheet with what I think is pertinent info for each set of components: drill bits used, bushing sizes (measured when new ) tube lengths, etc. ... (and update it very infrequently!) :redface:


Jeff,
I think this idea would be a very valuable addition to the site! I say do it.

I have attached my spredsheet if anyone is interested in having a look.

 

[Smitty37]

Who's fault.....

As a consumer who has turned and sold several versions, I can tell you with certainty that all slimlines are not created equal. Those obtained from Rizheng are very different from those of Berea.

The same statement is true, to a slightly lesser extent, of the Sierra. If you state certain facts about the Rizheng version, they do NOT apply to the Berea version. I am also aware of sources who do not make that differentiation and sell both kits, interchangeably.

IF you are striving for accuracy, these points must be acknowledged and the components from each manufacturer will receive different "grading".

This also assumes that you, the user, KNOW who your supplier bought the components from. I have seen posts where the user is asserting it is a Berea Sierra kit and I am quite certain it is NOT. But, as a vendor, I will not be allowed to assist in making this determination.

That is probably true and visa-versa but that is at least in part due to the manufacturers themselves.

I know for sure Rizheng and Dayacom, and I'm pretty sure Berea, function as OEM manufacturers as well as providing their own branded products.

As a seller of my own branded products produced by an OEM manufacturer, I am under no obligation to identify by whom they are manufactured and neither is any other seller. Also, any seller buying from an OEM manufacturer can be having things built to his own specifications so even knowing the manufacturer you might not have a valid comparison to another product.

We tend to equate "Made in Taiwan" or "Made in ROC" as actually being manufactured on Taiwan - but if you press them, most of the Taiwan manufacturers will admit to using subcontractors on the mainland while maintaining Quality Control to the same standards as items made in their own factory - if they have a factory. There is also at least one Taiwan manufacturer besides Dayacom providing "Made in Taiwan" kits to one of the big sellers

We also tend to equate "Made in China" with Rizheng - again not necessarily, there are quite a few factories in mainland China that can and do turn out pen kits or pen kit parts and if you are big enough you can link up with one of them exclusively - about 20,000 to 30,000 kits per month will do it for a lot of them.

I have no objection to doing this thing so long as everyone becomes aware of the limitations. Yes, it would be nice to be able to equate the names of all the similar component sets with each other but even if we do that how many vendors are going to guarantee their parts are interchangeable with another vendors component sets? Not me.

 

[markgum]

love the idea. Especially since I have bags of components obtained here and there. I will have to ponder the top 5 for a couple of days.

 

[Smitty37]

mmmmmm.....

I like the idea but wonder how you are going to handle ALL of the various incarnations associated with prettymuch the same pen.

Take for example all of the sierra types.

I don't know what pens I would put as the top 5. But I would wholeheartedly support pinning scans of the instructions at the top. The shop gremlins keep stealing mine.

I guess my approach would be to ignore the fact that what several people sell as differently named (or identically named) bags of components are exactly the same thing, and identify them by Vendor... OR just agree on the fact that some are identical and give in to that reality and have a single thread identifying multiple sources.

We'd probably only want to post links to vendor instructions. We've had copyright complaints when posting the actual file.

But how would you decide they are exactly the same thing? The can look alike but have a different base metal, different plating thickness and different plating formulas.

Also, "Made in China" does not necessarily mean made by Rizheng (I use Rizheng as an example because they are the best known of the Chinese makers) even if Rizheng makes a similar product.

 

[jeff]

I like the idea but wonder how you are going to handle ALL of the various incarnations associated with prettymuch the same pen.

Take for example all of the sierra types.

I don't know what pens I would put as the top 5. But I would wholeheartedly support pinning scans of the instructions at the top. The shop gremlins keep stealing mine.

I guess my approach would be to ignore the fact that what several people sell as differently named (or identically named) bags of components are exactly the same thing, and identify them by Vendor... OR just agree on the fact that some are identical and give in to that reality and have a single thread identifying multiple sources.

We'd probably only want to post links to vendor instructions. We've had copyright complaints when posting the actual file.

But how would you decide they are exactly the same thing? The can look alike but have a different base metal, different plating thickness and different plating formulas.

Also, "Made in China" does not necessarily mean made by Rizheng (I use Rizheng as an example because they are the best known of the Chinese makers) even if Rizheng makes a similar product.

I didn't mean "OR" as in "OR, here's a better idea..." :biggrin:

The preferred option would be to create threads for every vendor-pen combination. That way there won't be any complaining such as "hey, mine's not the same as those!"

 

[studioso]

I like the idea. Smitty and eddy,while your discussion is is important (and informative) I don't think it is necesserely relevant to this new forums: I think the point is not to give exact sizing of tubing and bushing: we already have wracinowsmy's PDF chart which is quite extensive.
In fact I would NOT separate platings or different manufacturer.
I would have one thread per pen component, for example:"Sierra, wall street" or whatever.
In the threat people can write about their experience with different manufacturers.
Reason:
How would I use such forum?
Let's say I want to try a new kit, or a costumer requests a particular kit.
I want to know where is the best place to buy it, what should I be aware off, what platingis best etc.
Say I want to read about the baron. Id rather go to a single thread, and read members opinions about different challenges, different manufacturers, etc. under the same component!

Just my 2 cents

 

[PenMan1]

Just kicking this can around a bit, and considering SkipRats comments.

"What if"........ This section only had a photo of each pen, (yes every variation would have a seperate listing), the available platings, the measurements at each critical joint, tube lengths and diameters, drill sizes and a link to each vendor where they could be purchased. (almost like a tool spec sheet on Amazon, etc).

With upkeep from membership, this could be our most valuable resource, as eventually every component set made ANYWHERE could be listed.

It could even "spawn" a second forum of what set pieces works with other set pieces. I kinda know some of these things through experimentation and I think it is VERY VALUABLE INFORMATION TO POCESS!

Just a thought?

 

[PenMan1]

A little more info, Wayne has made an excellent start with his library post.

I see this forum as a more visual example of Wayne's excellent work.

 

[ed4copies]

I like the idea. Smitty and eddy,while your discussion is is important (and informative) I don't think it is necesserely relevant to this new forums: I think the point is not to give exact sizing of tubing and bushing: we already have wracinowsmy's PDF chart which is quite extensive.
In fact I would NOT separate platings or different manufacturer.
I would have one thread per pen component, for example:"Sierra, wall street" or whatever.
In the threat people can write about their experience with different manufacturers.
Reason:
How would I use such forum?
Let's say I want to try a new kit, or a costumer requests a particular kit.
I want to know where is the best place to buy it, what should I be aware off, what platingis best etc.
Say I want to read about the baron. Id rather go to a single thread, and read members opinions about different challenges, different manufacturers, etc. under the same component!

Just my 2 cents

How will you do that?

The Baron is only offered by Arizona Silhouette. He has dozens of platings. Of course the Navigator from WoodCraft is the same components, made by the same company. Oh, so is the sedona---well, one version. Of course there are OTHER versions of the Sedona, made in a different factory. No, their components are NOT identical.

So, would you like all that in one thread? Should the two different manufacturers be noted for the Sedona? How will you know which one you were shipped, when you bought it? If you DON'T know, you will tarnish the reputation of the GOOD one, when you report on the other one's flaws.

Oh, should the Rinehart also be in this evaluation? It uses the same tube sizes---but I'm sure everyone already knew that.

Can you see the difficulties here? If you use the tubes as the deciding factor, you will have a REALLY fun time when you hit the CSUSA Jr. Gent.
Discounting all the other "crosses" for the Jr. Gent, should the Jr. Statesman just be an "offshoot"? Does the fact that it costs twice as much make it "different"?

In order for this project to be of value, one would HOPE we are trying to achieve maximum ACCURACY. To do that, the more specific the "model", the more RELEVANT your experiences are to the purchasing decision.

Edit in: Just realized I did not talk at all about Canada and Australia sources. So, when I said the Baron is only available from Arizona Silhouette, that was not including international sources---which tends to muddy what, until now, were pristine waters:biggrin::biggrin:

 

[PenMan1]

Studioso:
I respectfully disagree.

I see this forum almost like a PDR (Physcians Desk Reference). It would show a picture of the product, the physical attributes the important stuff like refills, sizes, known issues, different ways it can be bought and who here sells them.

30 different pill manufacturers make a form Meloxicam. Each is a little different, even in how it looks. Without the PDR, I would frequently be lost.

In fact, if this pen "book" were available, (even at a cost of $100), it would be sitting on my desk and would be updated yearly.

 

[jeff]

...In order for this project to be of value, one would HOPE we are trying to achieve maximum ACCURACY. To do that, the more specific the "model", the more RELEVANT your experiences are to the purchasing decision.

Perhaps we should invite any vendor to submit his data in the format we request. There's the opportunity to inject complete accuracy from the vendor's point of view. We'd use that information in the first post of each thread.

Everything beyond that would be personal experience, not personal opinion. By that I mean, "I don't like the looks of this pen" is not particularly helpful. "This is easy to assemble and sells well at shows I attend." seems to me much more along the lines of helpful feedback.

 

[ed4copies]

Jeff,

I am NOT opposed to this idea----I just see LOTS of problems making it accurate.

In several years of reading the IAP, there has been many instances where information given certainly appears to "mislabel" the source of a sierra. But, as a vendor, I cannot correct blatant mis-statements of fact (they are NOT lies, they are mis-informed customers). So, I approach this project with skepticism. IF you (I would normally say "we" in this instance, but "vendors keep out" makes that inapplicable here) can keep it accurate, it will be a GREAT resource.

It will be interesting to watch it's development.

 

[mdburn_em]

I think it's a great idea that can add tremendously to the forum. That being said, I think the problem will be the input from vendors.

Too little and it's not going to be helpful and in fact it will be hard to tell fact from fiction. Too much and it's chaos with tons of self-promotion.
I think vendor input will be important or maybe more precisely independant vendor input will be important

I also think lumping similar types (sierra) together will be less than successful, unless each gets it's own platform in a subfolder-so to speak.

 

[Jerryconn]

I like the Idea.
The kits that we should start with I think are the ones that are:
A. Ones that are the most popular, (i.e. Cigar, Slim Line, Sierra (or whatever you want to call it) Baron, ElGrande) or
B. The ones that seem to be the most problematic (perfect fit, sierra click, etc.).

One of the things I wonder about is machining variations, it is not uncommon for measurements to drift during production runs .002 , .003 or more thousanths so this information would always have to be verified during turning and assembly.

I am also all for dumping the word "Kit" for "Components"

Having a "one source" for the information would be good in my opinion.

 

[wood-of-1kind]

Andy I've been harping on that for three years.....COMPONENTS...COMPONENTS!

Hey Roy,

how about 'pezzi di ricambio'. Man that would sound good beside a bella penna advertisement.:wink:

 

[Smitty37]

Me too

I am skeptical as well. For similar if not identical reasons. For instance, does anyone even know how many variations of the Sierra sets are sold or how many different manufacturers there are? We know Berea, Dayacom, Rizheng and Main Mold all make them but how many others? I could be wrong but I think Timberbits mentioned that he has his own suppliers in Taiwan, if so that would be at least 5. And, I am betting that no two specs are identical. Slimlines are probably worse.

Jeff,

I am NOT opposed to this idea----I just see LOTS of problems making it accurate.

In several years of reading the IAP, there has been many instances where information given certainly appears to "mislabel" the source of a sierra. But, as a vendor, I cannot correct blatant mis-statements of fact (they are NOT lies, they are mis-informed customers). So, I approach this project with skepticism. IF you (I would normally say "we" in this instance, but "vendors keep out" makes that inapplicable here) can keep it accurate, it will be a GREAT resource.

It will be interesting to watch it's development.

 

[jeff]

Jeff,

I am NOT opposed to this idea----I just see LOTS of problems making it accurate.

In several years of reading the IAP, there has been many instances where information given certainly appears to "mislabel" the source of a sierra. But, as a vendor, I cannot correct blatant mis-statements of fact (they are NOT lies, they are mis-informed customers). So, I approach this project with skepticism. IF you (I would normally say "we" in this instance, but "vendors keep out" makes that inapplicable here) can keep it accurate, it will be a GREAT resource.

It will be interesting to watch it's development.

The proposal was to invite each vendor to seed the thread with accurate information. Is the concern that someone will post a pen in the wrong thread.

I did say above "If you make it or sell it, don't post." Maybe that's too extreme. I am simply trying to prevent what happens elsewhere on the forum when products are discussed - creative bumping, arguments, etc.

 

[jeff]

I am skeptical as well. For similar if not identical reasons. For instance, does anyone even know how many variations of the Sierra sets are sold or how many different manufacturers there are? We know Berea, Dayacom, Rizheng and Main Mold all make them but how many others? I could be wrong but I think Timberbits mentioned that he has his own suppliers in Taiwan, if so that would be at least 5. And, I am betting that no two specs are identical. Slimlines are probably worse.

Jeff,

I am NOT opposed to this idea----I just see LOTS of problems making it accurate.

In several years of reading the IAP, there has been many instances where information given certainly appears to "mislabel" the source of a sierra. But, as a vendor, I cannot correct blatant mis-statements of fact (they are NOT lies, they are mis-informed customers). So, I approach this project with skepticism. IF you (I would normally say "we" in this instance, but "vendors keep out" makes that inapplicable here) can keep it accurate, it will be a GREAT resource.

It will be interesting to watch it's development.

Specifically, what are you skeptical about? That the information will be useful or 100% accurate?

I've proposed that the vendor supply information to seed the thread. That's a pretty good opportunity to drive some accuracy into the process.

The only other situation I can think of that would bother a vendor is if someone posted a photo of a pen (or any sort of information relating to a pen) that was factually wrong. Advised of that, we'll get it corrected.

Please tell me how you would like to participate in the project to reduce your skepticism.

You know the way I test out an idea to uncover the cons is to run through a few scenarios that are likely to occur and look for the unhappy parts.

So, let's say you supply information about a pen you sell and we correctly transcribe that into the first post of a thread. Then it's open for members to add to. What next?

 

[BRobbins629]

I'm a little mixed on the idea. As others have stated, the worst thing we can do is give wrong information. This new section as you describe appears to be one of facts whereas most of the threads on this site are now opinions. Rather than calling it Pen Kit Experiences, I see value in pictures, sizes weights, links to instructions, possibly lists of vendors, etc and leave it at that. There are other forums for experience. Also recommend a peer group of reviewers who are knowledgeable in the products prior to posting.

 

[Smitty37]

OK.

I am skeptical as well. For similar if not identical reasons. For instance, does anyone even know how many variations of the Sierra sets are sold or how many different manufacturers there are? We know Berea, Dayacom, Rizheng and Main Mold all make them but how many others? I could be wrong but I think Timberbits mentioned that he has his own suppliers in Taiwan, if so that would be at least 5. And, I am betting that no two specs are identical. Slimlines are probably worse.

Jeff,

I am NOT opposed to this idea----I just see LOTS of problems making it accurate.

In several years of reading the IAP, there has been many instances where information given certainly appears to "mislabel" the source of a sierra. But, as a vendor, I cannot correct blatant mis-statements of fact (they are NOT lies, they are mis-informed customers). So, I approach this project with skepticism. IF you (I would normally say "we" in this instance, but "vendors keep out" makes that inapplicable here) can keep it accurate, it will be a GREAT resource.

It will be interesting to watch it's development.

Specifically, what are you skeptical about? That the information will be useful or 100% accurate?

I've proposed that the vendor supply information to seed the thread. That's a pretty good opportunity to drive some accuracy into the process.

The only other situation I can think of that would bother a vendor is if someone posted a photo of a pen (or any sort of information relating to a pen) that was factually wrong. Advised of that, we'll get it corrected.

Please tell me how you would like to participate in the project to reduce your skepticism.

You know the way I test out an idea to uncover the cons is to run through a few scenarios that are likely to occur and look for the unhappy parts.

So, let's say you supply information about a pen you sell and we correctly transcribe that into the first post of a thread. Then it's open for members to add to. What next?

It depends on what they are adding, some things are easily corrected and others are not.

It also depends on them getting it right when they make an entry so they don't add things about one vendors product to the thread for anothers. I picture that happening frequently - particularily for slimlnes and sierras.

Many people on here say that they keep the parts in bins and don't keep the entire set together or at least they remove the tubes and separate them from the set.