PayPal

[jttheclockman]

Well it looks like I got stung and just want to point something out in case you do not know it already. Also a question in case someone has gone through this and has some info.

Feb3 I placed a WTB ad on a few woodworking sites that I am a member on and have been for many years. Recently I placed another ad and had very good success getting an item. This time I had a member mentioned they knew of a person who had what I was looking for and gave me his info. I contacted person and we made a deal for a set price including shipping. We agreed to pay with Paypal and he requested I send money friends and family so they avoid fee. I said OK (first mistake) Have done this before but never ever ever again. 4 to 5 days go by and I keep emailing them to find out tracking number and carrier they used. After about 5 emails he gets back to me and any time I talked to him I always got one word answers to any questions and most he did not answer. Now I am getting worried and suspicious. He tells me FedX want $100 to ship. Now I know this is a plain out lie. The item weighs about 25 lbs and never cost that much. I told him no and that I want a refund of my money. He sends next text and says he will take $50. Again I said no the price included shipping and we agreed. Since then there has been radio silence and I threatened to get Paypal involved and this morning I tried to. Well here is what I found out and should be noted. If you send money by friends and family, there is no legal thing they can do to get funds back. So now I am out $200 or at best at the mercy of this guy. Never will ever send money again that way unless my own family so if I ever buy anything from any vendor or from member here DO DO DO not ask me to. Lesson learned. I am pissed. Just can not trust human kind.

To my question if this has happened to you or you know of a case, how did you handle it?? Is there a recourse that I can take. I suppose I can hire a lawyer but that would cost more than the money owed. I will try to reach out to the other contact who gave me his info and hope he can talk to him. Thanks.

 

[jjjaworski]

That really stinks.

 

[MPVic]

I haven't used PayPal much but I'm sure there must be members here who can shed some light on this. Good luck, John.

 

[Sly Dog]

I would think PayPal would be interested in reports of fraudulent activity, as would any credit card company tied to the PayPal account if one was charged. $200 is not enough to justify hiring a lawyer imho; there might be a small claims type procedure available and you could check your local county website for info on that.

Still, it sucks. Hope it resolves for you!

 

[Dehn0045]

Seems plausible that the member that "referred" you to another person was actually the scammer but wanted to maintain their own credibility on the forum, so created a fake account to do their scamming from. I've never had this happen to me, but have heard many similar stories, to my knowledge nobody has ever been able to recoup losses when using F&F. Unless you actually have the person's address and their local law enforcement wants to pursue it -- I would just cut my losses, save my time, and move on.

 

[jttheclockman]

Seems plausible that the member that "referred" you to another person was actually the scammer but wanted to maintain their own credibility on the forum, so created a fake account to do their scamming from. I've never had this happen to me, but have heard many similar stories, to my knowledge nobody has ever been able to recoup losses when using F&F. Unless you actually have the person's address and their local law enforcement wants to pursue it -- I would just cut my losses, save my time, and move on.

Seems to be the case. If anything changes I will post. But hope others keep the FandF thing in mind when using PayPal. I know I sure will from now on.

 

[Dehn0045]

You might be able to report this to the forum admin, they might be able to provide evidence to show that the two accounts are being accessed from the same location. Still unlikely that you will get your money back, but this is the only worthwhile path that I see to take.

 

[magpens]

John, I am sorry to hear of your trauma with PayPal.

I had a problem of a totally different kind a few months ago and was not able to get any satisfactory resolution from PayPal.
In fact, all of my communications with PayPal about that problem were answered by a ROBOT .... never any real human contact.
I totally object to that kind of treatment.

I seriously wonder what is going on with that company.

More recently, I got an email, allegedly from PayPal, to say that my account had been placed on "severe limitations" (my words).
I don't know what that means and have not followed up to try to find out. . I suspect the email I got is a scam and that my info has been "harvested".

I have been meaning to post something about this matter here on IAP to see if anyone else has had bad experiences.
Your post has motivated me to add these comments.

I seriously think there has been some security breaches at PayPal and wanted to warn other IAP members or ask for their own experiences.

John, I hope you don't mind my adding this to your thread. . I think it is VERY IMPORTANT to share our experiences like this.

So here is a question I have been meaning to ask .... What other alternatives do we have to PayPal ?

 

[jttheclockman]

Don't mind at all Mal. I was fortunate to talk to a live human this morning. I bypassed all that robot stuff. I always hate that. The thing is so many more vendors and big chains are going to the PayPal platform. I find it usable. Never had to test their policy till now and got an answer I did not like. Whenever I have the opportunity to use it over giving credit card I always opt for Paypal. I think just about anything done over a computer is hackable weather hardwired or through the air.

 

[Dehn0045]

@magpens I highly recommend using a good secure password that you are not using anywhere else. And at a minimum turn on 2-factor authentication via text or email. It is a pain to login with 2-factor, but I am only using my paypal a couple of times a month at most, so putting in a code when I login isn't a problem. Most often I think the security breaches are with the various other websites that we use, emails/passwords/usernames are collected and sold. The bigger companies are now collecting these known compromised passwords and either warning users or sometimes locking accounts until passwords are changed (this is more typical if the security breach was at the same company/site). Last thing, don't click on links in emails, more often than not I find that these emails are fake and just trying to collect your login or other personal info.

I have also heard that paypal will limit you account if you are receiving too much money with "friends and family", I think it is like $500 per month. There might also be a limit on the number of transactions you can do with F&F. If this is the case then you have to use "goods and services".

Side note - I also suggest turning off "automatically downloading images" with your email, just get the text, when you download images this can send a ping to the sender letting them know that you opened the email, my wishful thinking is that if spammers never get this ping then they eventually assume that my email is not active and I hopefully receive less spam/phishing emails. Also, I suspect that they will use this information to direct more sophisticated "real looking" emails.

My personal opinion is that Paypal isn't really the problem. When you use "Friends and Family" you have to treat that like you are handing cash to a person -- a person that you can't physically see. This should be used exactly how the name implies, sending money to people that you know and trust. Paypal provides this service "free" to customers, but like most things that are free it doesn't come with much warranty. When you buy something from a random stranger and trust that they are going to ship you an item that they are describing, then "Goods and Services" is more appropriate. When using G&S you pay a fee that Paypal uses to essentially insure the transaction, I think it is 3-5%. If the transaction goes sour, Paypal uses a portion of the fee to try to track down which party didn't hold up their end and resolve the issue, the other party is made whole without much hassle. All this said, I have used F&F when buying and selling over the years, but never for anything over $100.

I am not aware of any other platform that provides an insured transaction on a per transaction only basis. I believe that others like Square and Shopify are subscription-based, so individuals selling "garage sale" type items probably aren't going to maintain a subscription to sell things here and there. There are others that are essentially equivalent to "Paypal Friends and Family", but they really don't provide any more security to my knowledge (Zelle, Venmo, Cashapp)

 

[magpens]

@Dehn0045

Hi Sam,

Thanks for your post. . I need to read it and "study it" more thoroughly.

Just one item of reply for now .... I never click on anything in an email that I even remotely suspect is a scamming or phishing email.

Thanks for your warning about this. . . It is very important for everyone to be reminded of the risks involved.

In fact .... sometimes it is clear even before you open an email that is is fraudulent. .
I trash those immediately ..... without opening them ..... if the spelling or anything else about them is glaringly suspect.

 

[444]

There is always someone out there trying to get you. I ordered a kennel about a year ago and the site looked like it was in the states but after paying with PayPal and checking who it was it was from china! A couple months go by and no kennel so I called PayPal and started a claim a week goes by and I find that the claim! has been closed in the sellers favor!! The only suspicious thing is we did receive a single mask from china.

 

[mmayo]

PayPal has been good to me with no issues. They can be very helpful when the wish to do that.

Sorry about your experience. Try them again with more gusto.

 

[jttheclockman]

You might be able to report this to the forum admin, they might be able to provide evidence to show that the two accounts are being accessed from the same location. Still unlikely that you will get your money back, but this is the only worthwhile path that I see to take.

Boy you maybe onto something. This guy joined 2 weeks ago. Just about the time I placed the ad. He has no name on file or any info and has not made any posts on the site either.

 

[henry1164]

A feature of all the credit card companies that I have used is the ability to dispute a charge made through their card system (i.e. failed to get merchandise; item misrepresented; etc.). Dispute the charge with the credit card company that is tied to your PayPal account. The credit card company has a "fraud" unit that will pursue the issue. They work with the merchant - in this case PayPal - to resolve the issue. In any case, if they find it credible then you would most likely get your money back from the credit card company. I have used this card benefit on two occasions with direct sales from a merchant in the past and was satisfied on both. Hope this helps.

 

[Alan Morrison]

John, I'm sorry hearing this. Thieves are just the lowest.
Bummer, John, an expensive lesson.

 

[jttheclockman]

A feature of all the credit card companies that I have used is the ability to dispute a charge made through their card system (i.e. failed to get merchandise; item misrepresented; etc.). Dispute the charge with the credit card company that is tied to your PayPal account. The credit card company has a "fraud" unit that will pursue the issue. They work with the merchant - in this case PayPal - to resolve the issue. In any case, if they find it credible then you would most likely get your money back from the credit card company. I have used this card benefit on two occasions with direct sales from a merchant in the past and was satisfied on both. Hope this helps.

Unfortunately it was made through a checking account. I am going to check with bank tomorrow. They are closed today. Maybe an avenue.

 

[leehljp]

Sorry to hear this John, and thank you for the warning and for sharing it. I was not aware of "Family and Friends".

On getting taken in another situation:
I have also learned to check "where" something is shipped FROM. And I do this on Amazon as well. Amazon has opened up products shipped from overseas, particularly from China. When I see China on the shipping, I back off. I get some good products from China but two to six weeks shipping leaves too much time for fraud, lost products and company (PP/Amazon/third party back and forth "discussions". I had PP ask me to wait (in the shippers favor) an extra week (after 6 weeks) before filing a claim as they had been assured that the shipper had sent to product and it was in transit. I waited the week and filed the claim. I got my money back; the product was never in transit, IMO.

I made up my mind then - to check the shipping time and time on every order. I won't buy from PP or Amazon if the product is not promised as deliverable in 2 weeks, whether USA or any other country. There are too many variables beyond two weeks delivery. If a company is out of stock, I wait until it is back in stock before ordering.

 

[EricRN]

Sorry to hear that. Probably not much you can do other than try to get the guy kicked off the forum, or file some type of small claims thing.

My own similar experience and lesson learned: Always ship insured when you sell stuff. I sold a guy a high end camera lens for a few hundred dollars on eBay. About a month after it gets delivered, and I get a request for a refund. The guy says the lens arrived broken. I asked him to send me pictures of the packaging to see if it was damaged in transit. He didn't have it. I asked why he waited a month to tell me that it arrived broken. He said it got delivered right before he left for a trip and didn't have a chance to test it before he left. I pushed ebay on it a bit, saying that this sounded fishy. But they basically said "we always believe the buyer and you are responsible for safe delivery and should have ensured it with USPS."

So, moral of the story, always ensure your packages. To this day, I have a feeling that guy took the lens on vacation with him and it got busted during his trip.

 

[jttheclockman]

Sorry to hear this John, and thank you for the warning and for sharing it. I was not aware of "Family and Friends".

On getting taken in another situation:
I have also learned to check "where" something is shipped FROM. And I do this on Amazon as well. Amazon has opened up products shipped from overseas, particularly from China. When I see China on the shipping, I back off. I get some good products from China but two to six weeks shipping leaves too much time for fraud, lost products and company (PP/Amazon/third party back and forth "discussions". I had PP ask me to wait (in the shippers favor) an extra week (after 6 weeks) before filing a claim as they had been assured that the shipper had sent to product and it was in transit. I waited the week and filed the claim. I got my money back; the product was never in transit, IMO.

I made up my mind then - to check the shipping time and time on every order. I won't buy from PP or Amazon if the product is not promised as deliverable in 2 weeks, whether USA or any other country. There are too many variables beyond two weeks delivery. If a company is out of stock, I wait until it is back in stock before ordering.

Good advice from so many here and what you said Hank is true. But now what I am seeing is these China companies now have sites setup mainly in California and many times it has the USA label on it but was made in China and this is how they get it here within 2 weeks. Amazon is great for this. Not sure if they are in it together.

I sent a message to admin. on woodworking site. Hope to hear from him. Do not want others to be taken. Now I know Jeff does the best he can here and in the past has actually stood good for fraud sales with his own money. Stories get untold. But even the most careful people get scammed and I was scammed. I feel like an idiot. Something in my head said this was too good to be true and I should have backed away. But what sent me over was I just did a perfect deal a month earlier. Was thrilled with it too.

 

[Dehn0045]

@EricRN wow that sucks. I have been selling some stuff on ebay, mostly lower value in the $10-20 range, but will heed your advice on any higher value items.

 

[bsshog40]

I use paypal a lot. I only do friends and family if I know them, otherwise regular. As you found out, paypal will not back it up.

 

[jttheclockman]

Well it is official. I just got contacted by owner on the site I got scammed from and he told me this guy has multiple addresses and is from Nigeria. What happens is he does his work behind the scenes and on the classified section through PMs. That is why they do not see him. I placed a warning on all the sites I placed the ad. Hopefully it will keep someone else from getting scammed. So I say again here be careful with who you are dealing with and check their background on the site to see if they are a member in good standings. I hate seeing new members come here and first thing they do is start selling blanks and woods. I think there should be a post count before you can sell here. I know Jeff keeps a close eye on things here and sometimes things slip through so just be careful and as I said watch the Paypal thing.

 

[Gregf]

Someone selling and asks for Friends and Family is always a red flag for me. Paypal fees should be figured into the price.
Similar to if you are selling and the buyer asks you to accept Venmo. Unless they have changed, they have a no selling policy. The buyer can file a dispute and Venmo can reverse the money for a violation of their terms of service.

 

[showcaser]

I would think PayPal would be interested in reports of fraudulent activity, as would any credit card company tied to the PayPal account if one was charged. $200 is not enough to justify hiring a lawyer imho; there might be a small claims type procedure available and you could check your local county website for info on that.

Still, it sucks. Hope it resolves for you!

You see the thing is if you use the friends and family option for a business transaction it is a fraudulent transaction, only it's perpetuated by the sender of the money. Paypal fees are part of the cost of doing business for any seller using Paypal. They provide a service and should be paid for the service. I've been using Paypal for over 20 years and not had a single problem.

 

[studioseven]

I had a similar experience and posted it here back in 2015. PayPal was very firm in not allowing me to file a dispute when using Friends and Family. A costly learning experience for me.

Seven

 

[jttheclockman]

Just got back from the bank and I filed a claim with them and they will look into it and let me know the outcome in 2 weeks. Maybe there is hope.

Yes and again the main reason I posted this is if there is someone who may not know this about Paypal then it may save them. I wish I had known but now I do. Stay safe everyone.

 

[Buckmark13]

It seems to me that the issue is not with PayPal at all. They are living up to their end of what you agreed to when using "Friends" to transfer money. No charge to either party for no protection. In their eyes, rightfully so, there was not a commercial transaction.

That said, I use "Friends" quite frequently when buying things from people in the turning world I've never met. Do they have a history of postings, with good feedback? Have others had transactions with them? What's the worst case scenario for me if I never receive what we agreed on or it's not as advertised? And it's always been a good faith gesture on my part versus something they ask for.

If they're asking for it and not agreeing to absorb the fees PayPal charges for a transaction, you could always offer to cover those charges and gross up the payment. In this case $6-$8 would have covered you for the $200 as now it's a commercial transaction and PayPal would back you up to the extent they deem appropriate. And, has been said, you'd also have some protection and recourse through your credit card or bank.

Still sucks no matter how you slice and dice it! Good luck in getting something from the bank. Hopefully they cover you even if it's a good faith gesture on their part to maintain customer loyalty.

 

[jttheclockman]

It seems to me that the issue is not with PayPal at all. They are living up to their end of what you agreed to when using "Friends" to transfer money. No charge to either party for no protection. In their eyes, rightfully so, there was not a commercial transaction.

That said, I use "Friends" quite frequently when buying things from people in the turning world I've never met. Do they have a history of postings, with good feedback? Have others had transactions with them? What's the worst case scenario for me if I never receive what we agreed on or it's not as advertised? And it's always been a good faith gesture on my part versus something they ask for.

If they're asking for it and not agreeing to absorb the fees PayPal charges for a transaction, you could always offer to cover those charges and gross up the payment. In this case $6-$8 would have covered you for the $200 as now it's a commercial transaction and PayPal would back you up to the extent they deem appropriate. And, has been said, you'd also have some protection and recourse through your credit card or bank.

Still sucks no matter how you slice and dice it! Good luck in getting something from the bank. Hopefully they cover you even if it's a good faith gesture on their part to maintain customer loyalty.

I am hearing you and you maybe one of the many that know all the rules of Paypal or even ebay. but I was one who is in the other corner. But now through my mistake I moved over to your side and it will not happen again. My purpose of posting this is if I inform just one person either about what Paypal does or the fact that transactions done through PM can be dangerous if you do not do some homework then my mistake and my posting helped save someone from the same fate. I bring this up again. I have seen new members come on here and all they do is sell stuff. Just be careful it can happen to anyone if you let your guard down.

 

[TellicoTurning]

Well it is official. I just got contacted by owner on the site I got scammed from and he told me this guy has multiple addresses and is from Nigeria. What happens is he does his work behind the scenes and on the classified section through PMs. That is why they do not see him. I placed a warning on all the sites I placed the ad. Hopefully it will keep someone else from getting scammed. So I say again here be careful with who you are dealing with and check their background on the site to see if they are a member in good standings. I hate seeing new members come here and first thing they do is start selling blanks and woods. I think there should be a post count before you can sell here. I know Jeff keeps a close eye on things here and sometimes things slip through so just be careful and as I said watch the Paypal thing.

I've done a lot of business with Nigeria and have met some really nice folks, but I think their main industry is scamming.... I get an email every so often from the "widow" of "Doctor xxxxx" or "Mr. XXXX the president of some bank" and she has 7.5 million dollars she needs to move out of a local bank account into an account in America... she just needs my name, address and bank information and she will share with me, but to cover certain "Fees" I need to send her $XXXX ....

When my first boss in Houston and I left a company and started our own, he had a contact with a banker out of New York that put him in touch with a fellow who wanted to purchase a container load of coke (not the drug, coke used in forges)... he had a verified letter of credit from a bank in New York for the material which we were supposed to procure, then take our expenses out of the L/C..... some how that container of coke disappeared in Port Harcourt...;. turned out the L/C was bogus and we were out $10,000.

 

[Dehn0045]

As a result of this discussion I learned that there is an entire genre of youtube videos where vigilantes expose scammers and use various methods to undermine their operations and annoy them. It's at least mildly entertaining to watch them get a taste of their own medicine.

 

[jttheclockman]

As a result of this discussion I learned that there is an entire genre of youtube videos where vigilantes expose scammers and use various methods to undermine their operations and annoy them. It's at least mildly entertaining to watch them get a taste of their own medicine.

I have seen some of those with the phone calls and I am sure there are members here that have played the game too with these annoying phone calls. As I said I placed this story on all the sites I placed that ad and just like Chuck there are some stories being told that are far worse than my $200 loss. That is a crime.