OOR problem

[mick]

I had something odd happen today. I turned several cigar pens last night and left them to let the CA cure overnight. Today as I was sanding and buffing them I had 2 OOR lower sections out of the 7 I turned. If I were turning on a mandrel I could understand this but I turn everything between centers. The only way I can see having this problem TBC is if the bushing was loose in the tube. My first thought was I had used a Sierra tube but no they were cigar tubes.
Has anyone else ever had an OOR pen while turning between centers? I'm puzzled.

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[jttheclockman]

What type of centers are you using. It is very possible that the tube was not sitting center on the bushings or whatever you used to hold it. Seen this happen before. Always check when you turn the lathe on they are running true. Lay your tool rest close to the blank and as square to it as possible and by hand turn the blank. You should not see any difference in daylight between the blank and tool rest as you turn.

 

[TonyL]

Yes. I don't know why. I have tested my centers for runout; the inside of my barrels for debris/glue, use machinists quality bushings (sometimes no bushings), very sharp tools. etc. I also keep the centers as close as possible. Every once in a while, I get one that is slightly OOR.
I know do all of the above and about half one through, stop the lathe, and turn one bushing a 1/4 turn clockwise and the other bushing a 1/4 turn counter clockwise. I don't know if it helps; but a more experience turner instructed me to do it and I do. I would say 19 of 20 barrels look good to me. I even thought that may be I am pushing the barrel unintentionally (who knows, but brass is soft - even though it may have a rigid material glued to it. However, my touch is very light and I am constantly sharpening my HSS and discard my carbide after 15 to 20 barrels,. sometimes 10 barrels if I have used them to turn very tough/dense materials. I have accepted it. I guess if I did all of the above and owned a $5k Robust, I would fine it unacceptable. You are not alone.

 

[mick]

Yes. I don't know why. I have tested my centers for runout; the inside of my barrels for debris/glue, use machinists quality bushings (sometimes no bushings), very sharp tools. etc. I also keep the centers as close as possible. Every once in a while, I get one that is slightly OOR.
I know do all of the above and about half one through, stop the lathe, and turn one bushing a 1/4 turn clockwise and the other bushing a 1/4 turn counter clockwise. I don't know if it helps; but a more experience turner instructed me to do it and I do. I would say 19 of 20 barrels look good to me. I even thought that may be I am pushing the barrel unintentionally (who knows, but brass is soft - even though it may have a rigid material glued to it. However, my touch is very light and I am constantly sharpening my HSS and discard my carbide after 15 to 20 barrels,. sometimes 10 barrels if I have used them to turn very tough/dense materials. I have accepted it. I guess if I did all of the above and owned a $5k Robust, I would fine it unacceptable. You are not alone.

Tony, I always did the 1/4 turn thing when I turned on a mandrel but who knows maybe I need to do it like that now.

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[jttheclockman]

At times what you will find and this is for beginners as well, when you drill a blank and if the hole is larger that the tube by alot then what you can get is an out of balanced blank when done. By this I mean when you glue the tube in it can favor one side or other on the top and the opposite on the bottom. Now when you turn down you look at end of blank and there is a thin material on one side of the blank as opposed to the other. Happens all the time. Many times it does not matter but use some of those translucent blanks and that tube shows through rather easily. If you square the ends to the tube then it should lay center when turning between centers.

I also do the 1/4 turn thing and many times I swap blank end for end too if both bushings are the same size.

You did not say how you are mounting between centers. That can give us a clue.

 

[mick]

At times what you will find and this is for beginners as well, when you drill a blank and if the hole is larger that the tube by alot then what you can get is an out of balanced blank when done. By this I mean when you glue the tube in it can favor one side or other on the top and the opposite on the bottom. Now when you turn down you look at end of blank and there is a thin material on one side of the blank as opposed to the other. Happens all the time. Many times it does not matter but use some of those translucent blanks and that tube shows through rather easily. If you square the ends to the tube then it should lay center when turning between centers.

I also do the 1/4 turn thing and many times I swap blank end for end too if both bushings are the same size.

You did not say how you are mounting between centers. That can give us a clue.

60° dead center 60° live center and TBC bushings.

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[KenB259]

It's always a good practice to clean Inside the head and tail stock frequently. I don't turn between centers but any way you do it dust, chips, gunk, whatever gets inside the tail and headstock can cause havoc. I keep a bottle brush nearby and swab them out.


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[TonyL]

Tony, I always did the 1/4 turn thing when I turned on a mandrel but who knows maybe I need to do it like that now.

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not sure if one has to do it. I just do it. as ken mentioned i also clean the bore/hole on the heads and tailstock (never pulled anything out, but I do it anyway). i would try turning a barrel w/out any bushings - maybe use a 3/8 or 27/64th tube X 2 inches, turn the blank down to something close to a pm kit diameter, you should be round. If not, I would (all has been mentioned already):

check run out of spindle (the thing that comes out of the h/s and accepts the drive center)
clean out h/d and t/s bore/hole
clean the tapers with wd40 or the like
Make sure there is no movement/wiggle when your t/s is secure/locked down.
Inspect your centers, they should be true and relatovely free of dings and dents especially where they make contact with the bushings
insert your centers, they should line-up point to point when the t/s and slid and locked to touch the point of the drive center

I can't think of anything else.

 

[Gary Beasley]

One other thing is differences in density of the material across the blank. If there is softer wood on one side of the blank sanding can remove more material on one side than the other. Sanding with too much pressure can aggravate this situation.

 

[Charlie_W]

I see way too many folks turning and not tightening the tail stock quill. I have lateral play in the quill on both the Jet mini and a Nova 1624 as well as rotational play in the tail stock to the bed ways. On my PM 3520, there is almost no rotational play in the tail stock to the bed nor lateral play in the quill. The PM is machined to tighter tolerances.
I feel this can make a difference in drilling and turning.
When someone recommends stopping and rotating the blank and then finishing turning, they obviously have some alignment issue and instead of looking to correct the problem they consider this a work around and live with the issue.
You said you had CA'd the blank and left it overnight. Do you apply your CA heavily and use accelerator? Is the CA thoroughly dry between coats or could it have a "skin" on it and then sag after sitting causing it to be oor when you come back to it?
Let us know what you find.

 

[jttheclockman]

60° dead center 60° live center and TBC bushings.

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Make sure there is no CA or dirt on either the centers and also no rust inside the bushings. Rotating the blank is not so much a movement problem in my opinion, It more has to do with a mandrel problem. I do it because I am always taking my blank off the bushings to use the calipers for measurements. Just a habit I got into. I am still using the same mandrel as I started with some 15 years ago. I do all my sanding and finishing off mandrel and use between center centers. Rotating the blank can also take out some discrepancies if the bushings are not perfect. Just my thoughts.

To add to the thoughts here going back to my mention the ends must be square with the tube, I should say they must be 90 degrees to the tube. That is why sanding or milling is so important step when doing a blank. It can cause the blank to be OOR because the components sit 90 degrees in the tube at all times. Get sloppy trueing the ends and all bets are off especially if again the hole is a little too large and the tube was glued in at an angle. These are important tips when preparing a blank. good luck

 

[Charlie_W]

To tag on to my previous comments and to echo JT's squaring the ends, I want to mention make sure there is no burr inside the tube. Also, I have seen some recommend turning the blank and squaring the ends last. As JT says, un-square ends will **** the blank at an angle causing oor.... always square to the tube (and seal the ends) before turning.

Also, I clean off any CA build-up from the ends of the blank by carefully rubbing the ends on a diamond hone and then re-seal the ends.
Clean off any dried CA from your 60 degree dead a live centers between blanks.

 

[ed4copies]

I turn between centers all the time and yes, I turn oor blanks when the ends are not square.

You CAN square the ends after a good deal of turning, as long as you have enough left on the blank to meet the bushing after squaring.

When the end is not squared, you can see the "wobble" in the bushing (more apparent at slower speed). I am planning on making a vid on this in the next couple weeks, did lots of turning yesterday, so I have the "footage" just need to edit and voice over..

"crap" in the morse taper will also cause the same oor condition, but not as accentuated, usually.

hope this helps,
Ed

 

[TonyL]

I turn between centers all the time and yes, I turn oor blanks when the ends are not square.

You CAN square the ends after a good deal of turning, as long as you have enough left on the blank to meet the bushing after squaring.

When the end is not squared, you can see the "wobble" in the bushing (more apparent at slower speed). I am planning on making a vid on this in the next couple weeks, did lots of turning yesterday, so I have the "footage" just need to edit and voice over..

"crap" in the morse taper will also cause the same oor condition, but not as accentuated, usually.

hope this helps,
Ed

After watching Ed's video's, I now square the ends AFTER knocking of the corners and removing some material. This has helped.

 

[MPVic]

It's always a good practice to clean Inside the head and tail stock frequently. I don't turn between centers but any way you do it dust, chips, gunk, whatever gets inside the tail and headstock can cause havoc. I keep a bottle brush nearby and swab them out.


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Ken: thanks for the bottle brush tip.

 

[mick]

I turn between centers all the time and yes, I turn oor blanks when the ends are not square.

You CAN square the ends after a good deal of turning, as long as you have enough left on the blank to meet the bushing after squaring.

When the end is not squared, you can see the "wobble" in the bushing (more apparent at slower speed). I am planning on making a vid on this in the next couple weeks, did lots of turning yesterday, so I have the "footage" just need to edit and voice over..

"crap" in the morse taper will also cause the same oor condition, but not as accentuated, usually.

hope this helps,
Ed

Ed I think you solved my problem. I've been squaring up on my disc sander and hAVE noticed at times a blank won't be perfectly square. With the lower cigar barrel there's not any wiggle room if it's not square. I'd be willing to bet that was the problem with the two that were OOR. It re-check my square on the sander.

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[jttheclockman]

Ed I think you solved my problem. I've been squaring up on my disc sander and hAVE noticed at times a blank won't be perfectly square. With the lower cigar barrel there's not any wiggle room if it's not square. I'd be willing to bet that was the problem with the two that were OOR. It re-check my square on the sander.

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I will accept half a point on that suggestion please

 

[mick]

I will accept half a point on that suggestion please

John gladly!

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[Richard92]

Another reason for joining this site a little problem like OOR and the input here is great for members like me who are still wet behind the ears.
Thanks Guys

 

[wolf creek knives]

I turn between centers all the time and yes, I turn oor blanks when the ends are not square.

You CAN square the ends after a good deal of turning, as long as you have enough left on the blank to meet the bushing after squaring.

When the end is not squared, you can see the "wobble" in the bushing (more apparent at slower speed). I am planning on making a vid on this in the next couple weeks, did lots of turning yesterday, so I have the "footage" just need to edit and voice over..

"crap" in the morse taper will also cause the same oor condition, but not as accentuated, usually.

hope this helps,
Ed

After watching Ed's video's, I now square the ends AFTER knocking of the corners and removing some material. This has helped.

Ed I think you solved my problem. I've been squaring up on my disc sander and hAVE noticed at times a blank won't be perfectly square. With the lower cigar barrel there's not any wiggle room if it's not square. I'd be willing to bet that was the problem with the two that were OOR. It re-check my square on the sander.

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Ed, Tony and Mick. Just so I understand what you're saying as this is a problem for me at times too. You, basically, get the blanks round and then square them after rounding? And Tony you mentioned a video. Where can I find it or others Ed has done? Thanks in advance.

 

[ed4copies]

I have made nearly 100 videos. All are on YouTube, under Ed Brown or ExoticBlanks short vids. There is another Ed Brown (whodathunk???) who specializes in firearms, so to avoid confusion the ExoticBlanks site is where I am now posting. If anyone is so inclined, please subscribe. There are things you can do on YouTube only if you have over 1000 subscribers, which I had as Ed Brown, but ExoticBlanks short vids needs to grow.

So, here is the link to the index on ExoticBlanks; https://www.exoticblanks.com/How-To-Videos.html
It also is not complete, but several of the vids (including the one last night on "Heatwave") show the facing process.
Last night's video is here:

Hope that helps
Ed

 

[TonyL]

Ed, Tony and Mick. Just so I understand what you're saying as this is a problem for me at times too. You, basically, get the blanks round and then square them after rounding? And Tony you mentioned a video. Where can I find it or others Ed has done? Thanks in advance.

I get them more than just round, Maybe 70% turned.

 

[wolf creek knives]

I have made nearly 100 videos. All are on YouTube, under Ed Brown or ExoticBlanks short vids. There is another Ed Brown (whodathunk???) who specializes in firearms, so to avoid confusion the ExoticBlanks site is where I am now posting. If anyone is so inclined, please subscribe. There are things you can do on YouTube only if you have over 1000 subscribers, which I had as Ed Brown, but ExoticBlanks short vids needs to grow.

So, here is the link to the index on ExoticBlanks; https://www.exoticblanks.com/How-To-Videos.html
It also is not complete, but several of the vids (including the one last night on "Heatwave") show the facing process.
Last night's video is here:

Hope that helps
Ed

I watched about 6-7 of your videos and enjoyed them. I also learned some techniques I was unaware of. Thanks for sharing.

 

[ed4copies]

I often tell friends I have made every possible mistake at least a few times. So, I have solved a few!!

"Blind squirrel" syndrome.