7miles
Member
Same pen just different back grounds. Plain or with a little style??
Comments welcome or should I say wanted
Comments welcome or should I say wanted
One last time, what do you think??
- Thread starter 7miles
- Start date
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
- Status
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
gketell
Local Chapter Leader
Split the difference. The plane washes out the pen. But the "style" is too busy so detracts from the pen.
Looks like you could add just a little "sharpening" to the photos too.
GK
Looks like you could add just a little "sharpening" to the photos too.
GK
Daniel
Member
Dale,
WoW! o.k time to talk about something new. When I look at anyones photo I look at it as if it was one I took. I look for the changes I would want to make to it and how I could do that with my camera and lighting set up. I mention all that because conditions may be different for you, your camera, lighting and simply taste.
The problem I see in both of these photos is a contrast problem. photo one is a dark subject against a bright background. your camera is taking the picture trying to compensate for the bright and dark areas. and not really doing a good job of getting either. In this case it looks to me like it got the background batter than anything.
photo 2 again has to much bright and dark. it does a much better job of getting the dark areas but the vary bright spot on the finial end threw the camera off just enough.
basically the spots at the finial and nib are spot lights that prevent the camera from getting a good light reading for the darker pen material and back ground. so both pen and background are underexposed. this has the effect of causing the blending in effect that GK mentioned to be even greater. The pen will stand out even against this background if you get the correct exposure for the pen material.
the best way to do this is what is called bracketing. bracketing is taking a photo at whatever your camera thinks it should be. then taking a series of photos each being a half step above or below what the camera thinks it should be. so each consecutive photo will become either slightly under exposed or slightly over exposed compared to the proceeding photo. this requires that you can set your camera to full auto to do. in this case you would take a step up or a slower shutter speed for each photo. a step up in shutter speed is simply going to the next slowest shutter speed setting. but to do this you must go one step smaller with your apature setting. now to really get confusing. a smaller apature means you go to the next larger number. Head spinning yet? Some cameras make this whole process easy by having a bracketing dial or switch. In the case of my canon there is a ring that surrounds the ISO dial. it is maker +1..2..3 etc. I simply turn this ring to the number of steps I want to overexpose the shot. turning the ring the other way lets me underexpose a shot. Hopefully your camera has a feature like this somewhere in all of it's menus but I cannot really help you with that. You might be able to set your camera to take the light reading from the center of the frame only, I have tried this with my camera but the results have not been quite what I was looking for. Finally only you can decide if you like the photo you got. that is the artistic part of photography and is determined by what you do and don't like. I mentioned before that a set up that works for a light colored pen on a light background will not necessarily work for every pen you take a picture of. but gratefully all you really need to figure out is a light , med, and dark subject against a light, med or dark background. that is only about 9 set ups but in reality i only need about 4 or 5 as those will work for most any combination.
as for me I like photo two the most.
WoW! o.k time to talk about something new. When I look at anyones photo I look at it as if it was one I took. I look for the changes I would want to make to it and how I could do that with my camera and lighting set up. I mention all that because conditions may be different for you, your camera, lighting and simply taste.
The problem I see in both of these photos is a contrast problem. photo one is a dark subject against a bright background. your camera is taking the picture trying to compensate for the bright and dark areas. and not really doing a good job of getting either. In this case it looks to me like it got the background batter than anything.
photo 2 again has to much bright and dark. it does a much better job of getting the dark areas but the vary bright spot on the finial end threw the camera off just enough.
basically the spots at the finial and nib are spot lights that prevent the camera from getting a good light reading for the darker pen material and back ground. so both pen and background are underexposed. this has the effect of causing the blending in effect that GK mentioned to be even greater. The pen will stand out even against this background if you get the correct exposure for the pen material.
the best way to do this is what is called bracketing. bracketing is taking a photo at whatever your camera thinks it should be. then taking a series of photos each being a half step above or below what the camera thinks it should be. so each consecutive photo will become either slightly under exposed or slightly over exposed compared to the proceeding photo. this requires that you can set your camera to full auto to do. in this case you would take a step up or a slower shutter speed for each photo. a step up in shutter speed is simply going to the next slowest shutter speed setting. but to do this you must go one step smaller with your apature setting. now to really get confusing. a smaller apature means you go to the next larger number. Head spinning yet? Some cameras make this whole process easy by having a bracketing dial or switch. In the case of my canon there is a ring that surrounds the ISO dial. it is maker +1..2..3 etc. I simply turn this ring to the number of steps I want to overexpose the shot. turning the ring the other way lets me underexpose a shot. Hopefully your camera has a feature like this somewhere in all of it's menus but I cannot really help you with that. You might be able to set your camera to take the light reading from the center of the frame only, I have tried this with my camera but the results have not been quite what I was looking for. Finally only you can decide if you like the photo you got. that is the artistic part of photography and is determined by what you do and don't like. I mentioned before that a set up that works for a light colored pen on a light background will not necessarily work for every pen you take a picture of. but gratefully all you really need to figure out is a light , med, and dark subject against a light, med or dark background. that is only about 9 set ups but in reality i only need about 4 or 5 as those will work for most any combination.
as for me I like photo two the most.
7miles
Member
LOL,, I will get right on that. LOL WOW where to start. I'll keep at it. I just want a good picture. And I won't rest tell I have one. So much to learn. Thanks Daniel
Daniel
Member
Dale,
I salute you. and if the process takes few hundred photos, that would not be surprising to me. I did all this many years ago with a 35mm. paying for all the prints. Figured out you can return the ones you don't like right fast like.
just a hint to hopefully help you eliminate some experimenting. I tend to put combos together that are only one step away from each other. like a light pen on a med background. and try to avoid the extremes like light against dark. My problem is I have a real soft spot for dark backgrounds. it can be done but requires extra effort and bracketing etc. I can spend as much time getting a picture of my pen as it took to make it. It really is another art form and not one that many penturners have a real interest in other than to show off there pens. problem is to really show a pen well you almost have to master some aspects of photography. and you can never look at the family photos the same way again. keep the pictures coming and try to say a bit of what you think of them. photography really is about you getting the picture you wanted. and understanding the equipment well enough to make affective adjustments. And as with any other art, there is training your eye to see. knowing what you are looking at and what caused it to look that way. for us penturners a giant glaring flaw in a pen is not even noticed by others, we have "THE EYE" wahahahahahahaha
I salute you. and if the process takes few hundred photos, that would not be surprising to me. I did all this many years ago with a 35mm. paying for all the prints. Figured out you can return the ones you don't like right fast like.
just a hint to hopefully help you eliminate some experimenting. I tend to put combos together that are only one step away from each other. like a light pen on a med background. and try to avoid the extremes like light against dark. My problem is I have a real soft spot for dark backgrounds. it can be done but requires extra effort and bracketing etc. I can spend as much time getting a picture of my pen as it took to make it. It really is another art form and not one that many penturners have a real interest in other than to show off there pens. problem is to really show a pen well you almost have to master some aspects of photography. and you can never look at the family photos the same way again. keep the pictures coming and try to say a bit of what you think of them. photography really is about you getting the picture you wanted. and understanding the equipment well enough to make affective adjustments. And as with any other art, there is training your eye to see. knowing what you are looking at and what caused it to look that way. for us penturners a giant glaring flaw in a pen is not even noticed by others, we have "THE EYE" wahahahahahahaha
7miles
Member
Ok, The info is great. Here are 3 of same but not the same. This pics. are # 39,#50, and #51 of the same subject and setting. I know they are both dark. And I know that is a no no. However I really like both of them.
That being said, what I have been working on is trying to get the lighting even and no wash out. However with this rhodium plating, I'm finding that to be a pain in the you know what. And the reflection in the cap OH MY GOSH I cant seem to get rid of that. If its not me in the refection then its the walls behind me. I think I'm going to have to live with that. Unless anyone has any idea. I also tend to lose a lot of the quality when resizing the photo. I think thats in the software I'm using, I going to get new but I have not decided what I want yet.
PIC #39
I think this is my best so far. It really comes close to what I see live. I also think that the colors are bright and clean. Good divide in the colors as well.
PIC #50
PIC #51
LOL..... I just looked I have taking 57 different pictures of this pen[
][]
That being said, what I have been working on is trying to get the lighting even and no wash out. However with this rhodium plating, I'm finding that to be a pain in the you know what. And the reflection in the cap OH MY GOSH I cant seem to get rid of that. If its not me in the refection then its the walls behind me. I think I'm going to have to live with that. Unless anyone has any idea. I also tend to lose a lot of the quality when resizing the photo. I think thats in the software I'm using, I going to get new but I have not decided what I want yet.
PIC #39
I think this is my best so far. It really comes close to what I see live. I also think that the colors are bright and clean. Good divide in the colors as well.
PIC #50
PIC #51
LOL..... I just looked I have taking 57 different pictures of this pen[
][]
gketell
Local Chapter Leader
What does your photo setup look like? Looking at the reflections it almost looks like you have a light right above the pen. That would make that "top" glare strong.
on my setup I have a white "cube" with an open front. I put a light on the left, a light on the right both coming through the cube wall. Then I have a smaller light I put above the camera coming in through the front/open area and I push it towards the tent until I get the reflection I like. All three have the "Daylight" compact fluorescent bulbs in them. Then I lay my grey card over the pen holding it tilted at about 45 degrees "up" and light meter off that. With the same camera settings I then shoot the pen (that way I don't have to worry about the meter mis-reading the reflections off the pen). With that configuration I get pictures like this:
GK
on my setup I have a white "cube" with an open front. I put a light on the left, a light on the right both coming through the cube wall. Then I have a smaller light I put above the camera coming in through the front/open area and I push it towards the tent until I get the reflection I like. All three have the "Daylight" compact fluorescent bulbs in them. Then I lay my grey card over the pen holding it tilted at about 45 degrees "up" and light meter off that. With the same camera settings I then shoot the pen (that way I don't have to worry about the meter mis-reading the reflections off the pen). With that configuration I get pictures like this:
GK
Daniel
Member
Nice to know what you like, better yet is if you know how you got that. simply keep doing it. Photo 51 looks like you got some camera movment or lost focus. really looks like movement to me.
as for what you wan to accomplish one i can help with the other I cannot.
wash out with Rhodium and other shiny bright finishes is simply going to happen. there are some solutions but they are way beyond the equipment of the average penturner so no need to even go there. basically you sacrafice wash out in the nib/finial to get better detail in the dark material.
second and the one i can help with, rouge reflections. this is simple work in a dark room. turn off all the lights so there is nothing but black to reflect in the parts. idn't it nice to get an easy one lol. as far as light from your light sources shining on you, walls,etc. you can put sheilds around them that will help bring it down. I have seen set ups that actually keep the object in a black box with holes for the lights to shine through. they use this sort of thing for taking archive photos for libraries and museums. the idea is that they want to add no color or anything to what they are taking a picture of, not even by reflection. and black obsorbes light so you cut down on random light rays. but that is anouther subject in itself. You could try just proping a piece of balck paper up in front of the pen as well. that way the only thing it has to reflect is black. I think that gets the idea across anyway. basically if you cant stop the reflection. control what is being reflected.
as far as loosing sharpness after resizing. I can't really suggest any definite answers but I can share what i do know. keep in mind this is still an issue for me as well.
the problem is with the Resolution of the photo. as I understand it resolution is determined by how many dots per inch your picture is made up of. there are two ways to resize a photo. one will change the number of dots per inch and you will loose resolution. the other way does not. I am not sure how the second method actually works but have been told it compresses the photo, whatever that means. it is also the way that pro photographers handle there photos. there are also file formats that will loose quality. I have been told to always save my pictures as jpg. there are others now I have heard that are even better. and that you never save a picture as a gif. file.
about all that gives you is a short list of things to look at in how you are processing your pictures. number one rule. never permanently change your original photo. make a copy of it to play with but never alter the original you never know what you might want to do with it later on.
57 photos, doesn't acrylic start breaking down under light?
as for what you wan to accomplish one i can help with the other I cannot.
wash out with Rhodium and other shiny bright finishes is simply going to happen. there are some solutions but they are way beyond the equipment of the average penturner so no need to even go there. basically you sacrafice wash out in the nib/finial to get better detail in the dark material.
second and the one i can help with, rouge reflections. this is simple work in a dark room. turn off all the lights so there is nothing but black to reflect in the parts. idn't it nice to get an easy one lol. as far as light from your light sources shining on you, walls,etc. you can put sheilds around them that will help bring it down. I have seen set ups that actually keep the object in a black box with holes for the lights to shine through. they use this sort of thing for taking archive photos for libraries and museums. the idea is that they want to add no color or anything to what they are taking a picture of, not even by reflection. and black obsorbes light so you cut down on random light rays. but that is anouther subject in itself. You could try just proping a piece of balck paper up in front of the pen as well. that way the only thing it has to reflect is black. I think that gets the idea across anyway. basically if you cant stop the reflection. control what is being reflected.
as far as loosing sharpness after resizing. I can't really suggest any definite answers but I can share what i do know. keep in mind this is still an issue for me as well.
the problem is with the Resolution of the photo. as I understand it resolution is determined by how many dots per inch your picture is made up of. there are two ways to resize a photo. one will change the number of dots per inch and you will loose resolution. the other way does not. I am not sure how the second method actually works but have been told it compresses the photo, whatever that means. it is also the way that pro photographers handle there photos. there are also file formats that will loose quality. I have been told to always save my pictures as jpg. there are others now I have heard that are even better. and that you never save a picture as a gif. file.
about all that gives you is a short list of things to look at in how you are processing your pictures. number one rule. never permanently change your original photo. make a copy of it to play with but never alter the original you never know what you might want to do with it later on.
57 photos, doesn't acrylic start breaking down under light?
Daniel
Member
GK,
Just noticed your photo, nice, hope you don't mind if I make a few comments on it. nothing bad[}
]
First notice how tha barrel of the pen is so well evenly lit from top to bottom. this goes a long way toward telling my eye not only what gk wants me to be looking at. but letting me see it in the first place. it creates a sharp clear edge to the entire subject so my eyes stay with the subject. yeah yeah starting to sound like an art professor I know. in this picture the background really does not become part of what I see because the pen stands out from it well. there is not shadow under the pen to blend with a shadow on the background. this lighting of the underside is caused by his small light that he pushes in from the front. be careful not to overdo this as you want some hint of shadow as this is what tells your eye that the pen is round. although lighting in this photo is good. I think it would be impoved if the lights where defused. making it a softer light and toning down the reflections just a bit. you want some reflection as again this shows the contours of the pen, also a good reflection shows the finish better, so this is really an issue of what it is you are trying to get a photo of. I see the entire pen very well, I have a good strong idea of what the finish looks like, and also notice no distracting reflections from the background. again it looks to me like detail got lost uploading this picture.
again GK hope you don't mind but I think it is as important to see what is right and understand why it is right as it is to know what is wrong.
oops almost forgot, although there is a light to the left right and front of this pen, there is only one shadow, very important. to many shadows will make your photo look distracting.
Just noticed your photo, nice, hope you don't mind if I make a few comments on it. nothing bad[}
]First notice how tha barrel of the pen is so well evenly lit from top to bottom. this goes a long way toward telling my eye not only what gk wants me to be looking at. but letting me see it in the first place. it creates a sharp clear edge to the entire subject so my eyes stay with the subject. yeah yeah starting to sound like an art professor I know. in this picture the background really does not become part of what I see because the pen stands out from it well. there is not shadow under the pen to blend with a shadow on the background. this lighting of the underside is caused by his small light that he pushes in from the front. be careful not to overdo this as you want some hint of shadow as this is what tells your eye that the pen is round. although lighting in this photo is good. I think it would be impoved if the lights where defused. making it a softer light and toning down the reflections just a bit. you want some reflection as again this shows the contours of the pen, also a good reflection shows the finish better, so this is really an issue of what it is you are trying to get a photo of. I see the entire pen very well, I have a good strong idea of what the finish looks like, and also notice no distracting reflections from the background. again it looks to me like detail got lost uploading this picture.
again GK hope you don't mind but I think it is as important to see what is right and understand why it is right as it is to know what is wrong.
oops almost forgot, although there is a light to the left right and front of this pen, there is only one shadow, very important. to many shadows will make your photo look distracting.
7miles
Member
This my lighting
I have moved, turned off, filtered, adjusted about every way I can think of short of buying different lighting.
After 77 pictures this is all the further I've gotten.
I think it is time I try something different. Like a lighter background. LOL.... I wounder where I heard that(Daniel) Sometimes I am slow.
Thank
I have moved, turned off, filtered, adjusted about every way I can think of short of buying different lighting.
After 77 pictures this is all the further I've gotten.
I think it is time I try something different. Like a lighter background. LOL.... I wounder where I heard that(Daniel) Sometimes I am slow.
Thank
gketell
Local Chapter Leader
Daniel, no problems commenting on my shots at all. I'm still learning so anything that might help me to get better would be a good thing. Yes the software is over compressing the images when I save it for the web. I just upgraded to a new version of iPhoto and it is much harsher on the pictures. I just haven't been spending the time to kick the image into Photoshop to do it right.
One other thing that shows the "roundness" of the object, or the shape in general, is the dark stripe. It is the contrast that shows the shape. On one web site I've seen they recommend adding a dark sheet of paper inside the rig to provide a dark spot in the light to give the contrast our brain interprets as shape.
Dale, WOW OK, there is a big part of your problem. You have WAAYYYYYY too much light. 250-500 watts on either side plus the high intensity reading light right on top of the rig. Wheee. Mine is 2 30w CFLs plus one 13w CFL from the front.
In theory you can just speed up the shutter on the camera to adjust for the light but that adjusts for the "average" light. The hot spots will still be really "hot". You could try just moving the lights back from your rig a foot or so. Again, especially the top one (IMHO). Or you could try turning the lights 45 degrees away from straight on so just the light from the "side" of it hits your rig.
But, again, your top one seems to me to be the killer. Try moving it up or getting a softer light. Also, if you move it towards the camera it will move your reflection line forwards on the pen. Getting forward of the filter to provide a harder light will give you a harder reflection which will better show the quality of your finish. Or, use the black line. Keep the light behind the material to soften the overall light but add a strip of black construction paper to make a dark line showing off your finish.
Positive light, negative shadow. Both will highlight the reflectivity equally well.
GK
One other thing that shows the "roundness" of the object, or the shape in general, is the dark stripe. It is the contrast that shows the shape. On one web site I've seen they recommend adding a dark sheet of paper inside the rig to provide a dark spot in the light to give the contrast our brain interprets as shape.
Dale, WOW OK, there is a big part of your problem. You have WAAYYYYYY too much light. 250-500 watts on either side plus the high intensity reading light right on top of the rig. Wheee. Mine is 2 30w CFLs plus one 13w CFL from the front.
In theory you can just speed up the shutter on the camera to adjust for the light but that adjusts for the "average" light. The hot spots will still be really "hot". You could try just moving the lights back from your rig a foot or so. Again, especially the top one (IMHO). Or you could try turning the lights 45 degrees away from straight on so just the light from the "side" of it hits your rig.
But, again, your top one seems to me to be the killer. Try moving it up or getting a softer light. Also, if you move it towards the camera it will move your reflection line forwards on the pen. Getting forward of the filter to provide a harder light will give you a harder reflection which will better show the quality of your finish. Or, use the black line. Keep the light behind the material to soften the overall light but add a strip of black construction paper to make a dark line showing off your finish.
Positive light, negative shadow. Both will highlight the reflectivity equally well.
GK
Daniel
Member
I would agree with top light points. I would also bring that light down on the table next to the camera. I do not think you have to much light as the camera will adjust for that, and most set ups you see for macro photos have 500 watt lights to each side. most DIY instructions suggest you get the 500 watt shop lights such as are in this set up. I actually have a copy stand at it has two 500 watt photo floods. usually there is more of a problem with the color of the light rather than amount. this the need for everyone to learn about white balance. I like that GK mentioned the "Grey Card" this is another and even better way to get your camera to set for correct exposure. The sensors that take a light reading in our cameras see things much differently than our eyes do. One of these differences is that they see white brighter than we do. To adjust for this the camera records white as a slight grey. Notice white backgrounds in photos. using a prey card found at any photo supply shop you can allow your camera to get a correct light reading. the camera sees this card as pure white and sets the f stop and shutter according to it. this is a must for really accurate exposure and color rendering. If you leave just a bit of the card showing in your photo you can use this later for color correcting with some photo editing programs. If you do a web search on Macro Photography you will find tons of info about it. set ups, equipment and other issues concerning it. In a nut shell macro photography is a difficult and often considered advanced form of photography. one bit of info I read last night concerning taking pictures of Pens said "Do not get discouraged, professional photographers can spend half a day setting up for a picture"
and these are the people that already know how to do it well. Keep in mind that for light control you can use reflectors, mirrors, sheets of white paper or cardboard. curtains (another solution for your reflection problems) and even umbrellas. By the way I have never seen anyone mention the use of umbrellas as a light defuser. they are a great way to really scatter the light, much better than shining the light through some material to break it up. but they do require stronger lights. that is probably another topic all together.
and these are the people that already know how to do it well. Keep in mind that for light control you can use reflectors, mirrors, sheets of white paper or cardboard. curtains (another solution for your reflection problems) and even umbrellas. By the way I have never seen anyone mention the use of umbrellas as a light defuser. they are a great way to really scatter the light, much better than shining the light through some material to break it up. but they do require stronger lights. that is probably another topic all together.
gketell
Local Chapter Leader
What you really want is EVEN light. If the light is even, strength doesn't matter, the camera can adjust for it. Think of an adjustable flash light. If you hit a bright wall and the beam is "tight" you get a really bright spot surrounded by "dark" so you can't really see in the middle because it hurts your eyes and you can't see on the outside because your eyes are adjusted to try to see into the bright area. But if you widen the beam out you get a very even light and your eyes can see it all, even if it is all a bit darker (which doesn't matter because your camera can adjust for it).
So if you have really bright lights close to a "weak" diffuser on your photo rig then bright spots come through to where you are trying to photograph which throws off your camera's ability to "see" the item properly and your picture gets messed up.
A simple solution (like with the flashlight) is to widen the light hitting side of your rig. You can accomplish this two ways: pull the lights back from the material a bit so the bright spot is widened out; or get a diffuser for an overhead fluorescent light from your local hardware store and put it between the light and the material of your rig. It will disperse the bright spot into an nice even light covering all of the sidewall evenly.
Macro photography is a fun challenge. No doubt. And the really "pissy" thing is that when you master the techniques the photos will show off all your flaws beautifully. Even those flaws that can't be seen by normal eyes in normal light. The joys of blowing things up and looking at them at 4-8 times original size. [B)][]
GK
So if you have really bright lights close to a "weak" diffuser on your photo rig then bright spots come through to where you are trying to photograph which throws off your camera's ability to "see" the item properly and your picture gets messed up.
A simple solution (like with the flashlight) is to widen the light hitting side of your rig. You can accomplish this two ways: pull the lights back from the material a bit so the bright spot is widened out; or get a diffuser for an overhead fluorescent light from your local hardware store and put it between the light and the material of your rig. It will disperse the bright spot into an nice even light covering all of the sidewall evenly.
Macro photography is a fun challenge. No doubt. And the really "pissy" thing is that when you master the techniques the photos will show off all your flaws beautifully. Even those flaws that can't be seen by normal eyes in normal light. The joys of blowing things up and looking at them at 4-8 times original size. [B)][
]GK
- Status