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DCBluesman

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Over the past couple of years there have been disputes over whose idea the jigsaw puzzle pen was. There have been some volatile threads and some not so subtle digs over it. Well, from my perspective, I'm out of this one.

Bruce Boone showed a jigsaw puzzle design back on 2/10/2005.
2005210213151_puzzlepen.jpg

His description said
I got ahead of ring orders today for a couple hours and here's what I worked on. I had a lot of problems casting with polyester never setting up properly, and ruined several blanks in the process, so I finally just used CA. I added the dyes and luster pigments that I got with the polyester and they seemed to work OK. Using the CA with the accelerator allowed me to use different colors whereas polyester would have to be one color. The wood is walnut and has a nice grain that's hard to see in the picture.
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He also talked about how to make one from wood that interlocked, but never showed it.
Hi Eagle, Yes, my first attempts were two different woods. It worked, but the pieces were tough to lock and unlock because of what I call the "Jack-O-Lantern Lid Syndrome." This is where the parts can only go together from one end due to the divergent lines all pointing to the centerline. The pieces were somewhat loose when it went together. That could have been fixed by compensating for the beam width, which is around .007", but the biggest issue was that it was a three dimensional jigsaw puzzle and was darn hard to put together!
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As I recall, in 2004 my pen was inspired by Art Liestman's jigsaw puzzle hollow forms, which he demoed at the Capitol Area Woodturners meeting in October. It just took me a while, working with three different laser cutters, to realize it. Maybe I was also inspired by Bruce. If so, I don't remember it that way...but hell, I'm old. Perhaps CRS has set in.

Ok, I disavow claim to the design. I give inspirational credit to Art and Bruce.

I will remove all claims of my pens being the "original" from my website.

In fact, I remove all claims to everything pen related except the Heritance trademark...that's registered with the U.S. PTO... and any of my copyrighted photos, website original content or articles.

I'm also bowing out of any future discussions about copyright, trademark or patent. I won't show or comment on anything that might relate to any of those issues. I'm back to just showing pretty wood pens once in a while.
 
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Thank you Lou for setting the record straight. As I told you by PM, my first puzzle pen was made from walnut and maple with interlocking pieces. I wasn't that happy with the results, so I did not photograph it. That was one of my first wood pens, and the CA between pieces wasn't perfect. I sold it at the Atlanta Pen Show for $80. The biggest manufacturing issue for me was making it on a Euro pen, where the tube was small diameter and the wood was thick. That made the cut extra wide from the focal cone of the laser and there was more play than I would like between pieces. This made what I called the Jack-O-Lantern Lid effect very noticeable where you had to assemble the pen in a certain order to get things to fit. The solution would be to go to the larger tubes and thinner woods of the larger kits and dial in the laser code. It took a very long time to make and assemble. I mentioned that it was like a real 3D jigsaw puzzle, which is true. Every piece was different, so it was a lot of work just to assemble it. I also tried a version in which staggered pieces were hatched on a single piece of wood and cut away while the opposite pieces remained standing to see if it would save time. I found that an all wood version was considerably faster, while one filled with tinted CA like the picture above took considerably longer. I had mentioned that some tweaking would remove any play in the interlocking version in the thread mentioned above. I also mentioned that a kit version would eliminate the huge amount of labor it takes to assemble the pen.

I also had mentioned that I happened to have a picture in this thread: http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?p=12374&highlight=retract&page=5 which showed the burning code for the interlocking puzzle in the background. I was testing out laser powers that would completely cut through the cardboard before wasting any finished wood tubes. In order to convert that to rotary, all that is necessary is to plug the rotary axis in, so it's the same exact code. Notice that the left and right sides of the pieces perfectly align. It took some time in CAD to make that happen. This code preceded the code necessary to do the hatched version of the pen in the picture above, so was done prior to 2/10/2005, the date of that forum entry.

With hindsight, I do wish now that I took a picture of the finished pen. I had no reason to lie; I didn't expect others to take the idea and make them on their own without my input. I do recall a picture of my workbench filled with the laser cut pieces that it took to make the first pen. That is likely on an older computer or a floppy drive somewhere in my basement. The pen was a heck of a lot of work, and I back-burnered the project while my business took off. I still have the original CAD files, and that is what was used for the black zirconium metal version of the pen.
 
+1, and a good and honest friend....but please show your pretty wooden pens more than just once in a while:biggrin: I need the inspiration.
GaryMGg said:
Say or don't say what you want. I still know you're one of the smartest, cleverest folks amongst us. :biggrin: :wink:
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I guess I am still not sure what the big deal is with all this stuff that has been going on the last few months or so. Ideas come and go and very, very few are original. Since IAP makes up such a small part of the total woodturning/woodworking community I am sure if one looks hard enough they will find someone that has done it years ago. That is why I will never claim an original idea even if I have never seen someone else do it.

Lou, I do hope you keep posting your awesome pens and let all of this other stuff just slide.
 
Rob, the big deal is simply that my pen started showing up in magazines and WoodCraft and websites and others (not just Lou) were taking the credit and making the money for a product I designed. It's been a very sore subject for years. I would have expected to be in on negotiations when things started to get to that level. It's very hard to come up with something new that works and people like. It's much easier to take someone elses idea and run with it.
 
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I can understand this being a source of contention but did you have a copyright/trademark/patent (not sure the right term). If so, I would be considering legal action. If not, well not much to go on.

Don't get me wrong, I think your work is awesome. I am amazed by the pens and rings that you have posted and I wish I could have just a smidgen of your talent.:biggrin:

I just wish stuff like this and the other discussions I have seen didn't have to flare up so much. I hate seeing any turners not being able to get along and yes I know we are all human.

I do have a hypothetical question, if someone were to come along and prove that they had a puzzle pen before you did with dates and all that would you then have to change your mind about this?


btboone said:
Rob, the big deal is simply that my pen started showing up in magazines and WoodCraft and websites and others were taking the credit and making the money for a product I designed. It's been a very sore subject for years. I would have expected to be in on negotiations when things started to get to that level. It's very hard to come up with something new that works and people like. It's much easier to take someone elses idea and run with it.
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Technically, I have copyright on the design just by posting it. It is not a concept that can be patented and a trademark has no real value here. But that's not really the point. The point is others taking the idea, CLAIMING IT AS THEIR OWN, then making royalties on that idea. The royalties are adding up to thousands or tens of thousands of dollars, and the copiers are showing up in magazines as the designers of the concept. That's what I have a problem with.

In a hypothetical situation where I saw all the technical details and design laid out for a puzzle pen before I made the same thing, I would indeed give credit for the one who first did it. The fact is, I did the hours of CAD work, all from scratch without having seen such a thing before.

I came up with the Spyra pen in the same way. It took tons of time to work out. Indeed, I would not be pleased if it were to come out in kit form complete with laser cut spirals. It should be obvious that I was the first to do it, but I don't have a patent on it (although the term Spyra is a trademark referring to that pen.) I just think if there was someone out there wanting to mass produce those things, I should get a small cut of the action and recognition for doing the design. This is that line in the sand that I feel needs to be respected.
 
btboone said:
Technically, I have copyright on the design just by posting it. It is not a concept that can be patented and a trademark has no real value here. But that's not really the point. The point is others taking the idea, CLAIMING IT AS THEIR OWN, then making royalties on that idea. The royalties are adding up to thousands or tens of thousands of dollars, and the copiers are showing up in magazines as the designers of the concept. That's what I have a problem with.

In a hypothetical situation where I saw all the technical details and design laid out for a puzzle pen before I made the same thing, I would indeed give credit for the one who first did it. The fact is, I did the hours of CAD work, all from scratch without having seen such a thing before.

I came up with the Spyra pen in the same way. It took tons of time to work out. Indeed, I would not be pleased if it were to come out in kit form complete with laser cut spirals. It should be obvious that I was the first to do it, but I don't have a patent on it (although the term Spyra is a trademark referring to that pen.) I just think if there was someone out there wanting to mass produce those things, I should get a small cut of the action and recognition for doing the design. This is that line in the sand that I feel needs to be respected.
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In all fairness though, you've got to give others the benefit of the doubt, unless you know for certain that someone saw YOUR pen and STOLE the idea from YOU. I have made several things in my life that I later saw "mass produced". However, I know the idea wasn't stolen from me because I didn't show off those items and know that not many people saw them. It IS possible for two or more people to have the exact same idea, even at the exact same time.
If you know that your idea was copied, that's one thing and I agree with you. But don't assume that just because someone else created something like yours that they copied you. It could have very well been their own idea, no matter how similar.
 
You can read the old posts and gather your own opinion on that. I fully described the process and the fact that it would do better as a kit. I actually wanted someone to help commercialize it because I didn't have the time. You can get a good sense of what was happening when just by the different pens presented in the forums. I was very close to the situation, so I saw it all as it was happening.
 
Bruce, please understand that I do respect you and your work and I also understand that you put a lot of thought, time and creativity into your design. My hypothetical question was not to belittle your effort, I merely asked that if someone else were to prove that they came out with a puzzle pen before you did, would you then change your mind about being the original, like you asked Lou to do?

I admit that I do not understand the ins and outs of copyright, trademark, and patents. I think the gist of it is, that it means nothing if you do not defend it. And I don't mean among fellow turners but against the big companies in China and other countries. Would you be able to take your evidence and go after them for these royalties that you deserve?

One question that I do have, if by posting a photo of a pen automatically grants you copyright without applying to any government agency, then would not the first person to post a new idea automatically own said idea? Referring back to that long discussion about the watch part pen and the fact that a company came out with a $19,000 pen before someone else did, did not the fact of them posting it automatically give them the copyright over the individual who applied for one?

These discussions over the past few months have been interesting on one hand, but very discouraging on the other. It makes me wonder how much longer before we see nobody posting at all just for fear of being accused of stealing an idea.:frown:

btboone said:
Technically, I have copyright on the design just by posting it. It is not a concept that can be patented and a trademark has no real value here. But that's not really the point. The point is others taking the idea, CLAIMING IT AS THEIR OWN, then making royalties on that idea. The royalties are adding up to thousands or tens of thousands of dollars, and the copiers are showing up in magazines as the designers of the concept. That's what I have a problem with.

In a hypothetical situation where I saw all the technical details and design laid out for a puzzle pen before I made the same thing, I would indeed give credit for the one who first did it. The fact is, I did the hours of CAD work, all from scratch without having seen such a thing before.

I came up with the Spyra pen in the same way. It took tons of time to work out. Indeed, I would not be pleased if it were to come out in kit form complete with laser cut spirals. It should be obvious that I was the first to do it, but I don't have a patent on it (although the term Spyra is a trademark referring to that pen.) I just think if there was someone out there wanting to mass produce those things, I should get a small cut of the action and recognition for doing the design. This is that line in the sand that I feel needs to be respected.
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That's exactly what I'm talking about. He and Lou worked on their pen about a year after I posted details on making mine. Each of them had then claimed to be the first. Next, we had Barry and Constant getting into the game.
 
rjwolfe3 said:
One question that I do have, if by posting a photo of a pen automatically grants you copyright without applying to any government agency, then would not the first person to post a new idea automatically own said idea? Referring back to that long discussion about the watch part pen and the fact that a company came out with a $19,000 pen before someone else did, did not the fact of them posting it automatically give them the copyright over the individual who applied for one?
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Technically, you have a copyright as soon as you make the item, no photo needed. But, you can't claim damages if you do not register the copyright with the Gov.
 
It gets into lawyer land for the details, but yes, if you post your design, it is copyrighted even without going to the Patent and Copyright office. There is probably someone from the 1800's that did all the stuff we do today although I haven't seen it. It gets touchy as to how much one design taught the other and that sort of thing. That's why lawyers are rich. I certainly knew that Lou took a keen interest in the project, as he was the first to comment on the pen and wonder how it was done. I took it as quite a slap in the face when Ken made the pen as his masterpiece to get introduced into the PenMakers Guild, whom I had been a member of. As I said, I had no problems with them developing the idea into a nice pen. When they started claiming it as their own and profiting from it, that was different for me. It's up to me to stand up to those claims, and that's what I'm doing here.
 
btboone said:
It gets into lawyer land for the details, but yes, if you post your design, it is copyrighted even without going to the Patent and Copyright office. There is probably someone from the 1800's that did all the stuff we do today although I haven't seen it. It gets touchy as to how much one design taught the other and that sort of thing. That's why lawyers are rich. I certainly knew that Lou took a keen interest in the project, as he was the first to comment on the pen and wonder how it was done. I took it as quite a slap in the face when Ken made the pen as his masterpiece to get introduced into the PenMakers Guild, whom I had been a member of. As I said, I had no problems with them developing the idea into a nice pen. When they started claiming it as their own and profiting from it, that was different for me. It's up to me to stand up to those claims, and that's what I'm doing here.
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You had an idea and posted about it, they developed that idea farther and started producing kits.
Isnt most new things biased upon older ideas?

Did you have a lazer machine at that time?
I dont think those puzzle pens that Ken is making can be made without one.
I had my 4 axis CNC machine back then but even after seeing photos of Kens pens I was not smart or skilled enough to duplicate them.

Back when most of us pen turners hung out on the Yahoo Pen Turners group we shared a lot of ideas.
Then the Guild was formed and just about everyone was invited to join.
I never had a desire to join the Guild as I always thought of it as a group of elitists feeding their ego and was happy to stay put on the Yahoo group.
At first all you had to do was make a pen to join the guild ... now you must "advance the craft" in some way.

I guess things change over time ... sometimes for the better ... and sometimes not.

Willee
 
I did have a laser. That's how the pens were cut. It's not that tough. You lay out the 2D polylines and plot them to the laser. Someone familiar with lasers could program it easily in less than a day. I know I did. Dialing them in takes more time, and that's what Ken did. He just forgot to mention who came up with it and the royalty part, which I would have appreciated. They could be cut by 4th axis, but would would need to compensate for the cutter and the fact that the pieces would fall apart when machining. Laser is faster and better on wood.
 
Bruce

May I ask what do you hope to gain here on this site from these claims???. If you have some merit to your claims then shouldn't you deal with the people you think are not playing fair?? How could so many people claim they were the first??

I go back to the watch pen because it is all the rage. Barry claims it was his idea. But what was the idea?? The same with yours, what was the idea??? The making of pices interlock that looks like a puzzle??? So now every pen made with this idea you should get paid??? All these new laser kits that come out, each and everyone is copyrighted and no one can make them without looking to find who was the first??/

I agree with you that new ideas is alot harder than copying. But when you post items on the internet they are bound to get copied. To trace down the originator can be a daunting task especially if no patents or copyrights were ever filed. I said this about the watch pen too how do we honestly know who was the first. There could be some JOE SHMO out there who never saw this little site and made the puzzle pen way before you even thought of it.

This does get crazy and I always say if you want something to not be copied then never show it especially on the internet. Good luck in your quest. :smile:
 
Not really expecting a big check to show up on my doorstep. As an inventor, there's the pride thing going on. It just gets under my skin when others claim to have done it first when I know darn good and well that's not the case, and the Genesis of the idea was from my posts on this very forum. Lou has set the record straight, and that is good enough for me.
 
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I just want to say kudos to Lou for setting the record straight. Integrity is a big deal in my book. So my hat is off to you.

Bruce, I think you are doing a great job of explaining your point in a gracious way. I don't know if I would have the same level of politeness if I was in your shoes.
 
btboone said:
I did have a laser. That's how the pens were cut. It's not that tough. You lay out the 2D polylines and plot them to the laser. Someone familiar with lasers could program it easily in less than a day. I know I did. Dialing them in takes more time, and that's what Ken did. He just forgot to mention who came up with it and the royalty part, which I would have appreciated. They could be cut by 4th axis, but would would need to compensate for the cutter and the fact that the pieces would fall apart when machining. Laser is faster and better on wood.
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I think the ones I saw were cut from round stock.
They were curved on top and bottom indicating they were cut with the 4th axix from a tube.
When pieced together they formed the round wooden tube part of the pen.
Was all that your original idea?

If all you did was cut a pocket in the shape of a puzzle piece and fill that pocket in with some material ... then I would say people have been doing that long before either of us were born. Only the shape might be unique ... cutting inlays certainly isn't.
And doing it with a lazer isnt anything new either.
That is what they were made for.

Willee
 
The first pen I did was all cut from cylindrical stock like the kit pens are made. They were 4th axis lasered into a lot of pieces that had to be assembled. It was a very tough thing to assemble those first attempts, especially before I marked the pieces as to what went where.
 
jttheclockman said:
Bruce

May I ask what do you hope to gain here on this site from these claims???.
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Rather than question Bruce, who is simply replying to the original post, I would ask........ WHY was this thread even started in the first place!

I've seen this particular battle rehashed over and over over the past few years and bringing it up now seems to serve no purpose unless I missed another thread recently on the subject.

In my book, Bruce is one of, if not the finest pen maker on the IAP ('course he has all those fancy schmancy tools :smile:) and doesn't deserve to get drug into this sort of nonsense!

Everything I have ever seen him post was his own idea and did nothing but inspire me to do my best to be creative and push my abilities as far as I could.

I guess it's all the rage to thrive on these type of threads these days but I think they are total BS and only serve to drive more and more decent members away or at least from actively contributung in the forum anymore. :at-wits-end:
 
It seemed pretty obvious to me that after having the situation explained to him privately, Lou felt the need to publicly explain his mistake in claiming to have originated this idea. Bruce is adding his information in the way of additional clarification. I would assume that there are parallel discussions going on with differing degrees of civility with the other two penmakers named here, and they will be aired in public or not as the people engaged in them feel the need.

Any questions, statements, arguments, ect are at the discretion of the people posting them, and can be answered or not as Lou, Bruce or anybody else want's to.

Having read the relevant facts and forseen that the conversation will most likely turn to opinion and or hearsay, I will probably exercise my right to not read this thread any further, and suggest that anybody who is offended do likewise.

James
 
I agree George because there is some hidden adgenda here with making a post like this. I have not seen any puzzlepens come up or any discussions on them. Maybe I missed something and that happens. But if all parties are happy then so be it. Now where did I put my laser???:biggrin:
 
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