Newbie Question - Black grease from bushes?

[DaveTas]

Hi Folks, I have only turned two pens but each time I've had a little black appear on my finished surface towards the end of my finishing. I am using a pattern of 150, 180, 220, 300, 400, 600, EEE, Micromesh, SS, FP and then Wax. The bushes seemed clean when I assembled my mandrel (with saver).

Should I clean everything in thinners? Never seen anyone mention anything in Youtubes I've watched.

On the larger pen (photo attached) you can see traces of the black I couldn't remove.

 

[Woodchipper]

Tool gets metal from the bushing and spreads it on the blank. I turn down with bushings and switch to HDPE bushings for final diameters.

 

[mmayo]

I know you are new, that said try Delrin bushings after turning to size BEFORE you sand at all. The metal from your bushings has transferred to the wood. This is especially true with lighter woods. I've been there!

Buy 5/8" Delrin white rod on Amazon or at a Grainger near you. It should be $10 or so. Cut a 1" long piece. Drill a 1/4" hole through the exact center. If you don't yet drill on your lathe, plan to do that ASAP. Well spent money indeed. Use your existing bushing next to the 1" Delrin with the new hole in your pen turning mandrel. Turn the larger dimension first to match your metal bushing. Use a micrometer to get it right if you have one. Sand at the end, just the Delrin. Flip over the bushing and the Delrin so the narrow end of the metal touches the unturned Delrin. Now turn the narrow side down to match the narrow end of the metal bushing. I then flush up the ends and slightly chamfer the edges. Do this for any other bushings needed for the pen kit. Again, turn with the factory metal bushing and sand with the Delrin- problem solved forever.

Here are some examples

 

[leehljp]

It is from the bushings. Sanding the bushings as you sand the end of the blank or touching the bushings with the scraper/skew can do it too. it happens. There are ways around it:

1. Experience helps keep from touching the bushings but that is a very fine line. You will get better.
2. There is a method that for some reason newbies don't necessarily want to tackle because it requires a different philosophy: TBC, Turning Between Centers. With TBC, you do not use a mandrel. With the bushings on a single blank at a time. Place that between the the pointed end of a drive center (sometimes called a "dead" drive center) of the head stock and the live center in the tail stock. Turn to close to size. Take the bushings off (takes about 15 seconds) and finish fine turning (sanding) between the centers without bushings. No sanding dust.

Mark and John (above) recommended the delrin/HDPE bushings. That works fine too. But for some, the mandrels are often the cause of several problems related to out of round and chatter. IF you don't have it now, good; but it can still come later on.

There are two other recommendations for you:

USE Calipers to determine the size, not the bushings as bushings change size with use on a mandrel. Measure the center band, nib end and clip end. write down the measurements and turn to that size; finish. IF you keep using the bushings as your size measurement, the bushings will decrease in size after about 10 - 15 pens. Sanding and bumping the bushings with the chisel as it turns does that.

Next, no need to start sanding with 150, 180, 220. Pens are not furniture. Those grits leave deep groves. With a little experience under your belt, you should be able to bring the turned size close to the finish sizing - and with a surface smoothness of close to an equal of 400. A few people begin their sanding at 400, and but usually I along with some other begin sanding with 600. In many cases with the right woods, and with experience with skews and scrapers, we get a smoothness with the tool smoother than 600 sand paper can do. Yes, I have pens that I do not sand before I apply a finish because they are that smooth.
Just this past week was a post of a well finished pen in which deep scratches could be seen in places, but overall it was a very smooth finish with those exceptions. The problem: starting off with too course sanding. Again, pens are not furniture and do not need those low numbered sanding papers. How many people do you know that look at the finish of tables with their eyes about 10 inches from it. They look at pens that close, but not furniture. 150, 180 and 220 will cause scratches that deep. Use your chisel for that. (But that requires Sharp tools.)

Unless you are using carbide inserts, you should be sharpening your tools regularly and honing it at least between each pen. I hone mine a couple of times on each pen to keep it sharp. SHARP tools make for the need for less sanding on the blanks.

 

[magpens]

@DaveTas

Please tell me ... in your finishing sequence of 150, 180, 220, 300, 400, 600, EEE, Micromesh, SS, FP and then Wax ... ..

... what do you mean by SS and FP ... and what "Wax" did you use ?

I am currently experimenting with some new finishing routines

Thanks in advance

 

[Lenny]

You have received good info but let me add my $.02. I like to turn between centers as Hank Lee mentioned. While I have several special tbc bushing they aren't necessary to try tbc. I only use them to get close to finish size. I switch to turning/sanding/finishing between centers with no bushings of any type. This removes any chance of ruining your bushings or contaminating the blank with metal dust. Using digital calipers will get you a perfect match to the components. When doing a ca finish, it allows the ca to run over the ends of the blank sealing them off to any moisture that might otherwise weep up under the finish. Using a sanding mill to clean up the ends of the blank just prior to assembly will result in a perfect fit to the components. You can make your own with a 1/4" rod, reverse the head on your barrel trimmer or purchase one here in the Vendors section from Rick Herrell.

 

[jttheclockman]

OK I will jump in too and give another approach. Turn your blank down close to bushings. Use a good digital caliper to get to the point you allow for finish that will meet component measurements. But I too switch to delrin material but I turn it down to a cone shape so it works on all pen kits and you do not have to worry about exact sizes. Use those to sand and apply your finish with. No black marks ever again.

 

[DaveTas]

@DaveTas

Please tell me ... in your finishing sequence of 150, 180, 220, 300, 400, 600, EEE, Micromesh, SS, FP and then Wax ... ..

... what do you mean by SS and FP ... and what "Wax" did you use ?

I am currently experimenting with some new finishing routines

Thanks in advance

Sanding sealer and Friction Polish. The finish result I was very happy with, very smooth. My only problem was the black obviously to me now as pointed out above is from the bushes.. A Youtube video gave me the sequence so i thought I'd give it a go in the absence of any other method. Didn't take long and result was nice.. the Wax might not stand up to wear so CA is my next experiment.

 

[jttheclockman]

Dave as you get more experienced you will see that CA is probably a much better finish and there are many ways to apply which is a learning experience. You will find out quickly the dos and don'ts and how temp, humidity, kind of CA and excellorators used can make or break the finish. Then you will find out days where you did not wear your yellow socks and things just go haywire.

But you will also find out that there is no need to start so low on the grid scale and no need to go so high on it. I actually do not sand most of the time and go right from finishing with a skew to sealing with thin CA and go from there. Take it slow and learn as you go.

 

[DaveTas]

Tool gets metal from the bushing and spreads it on the blank. I turn down with bushings and switch to HDPE bushings for final diameters.

Thanks for your help. Is HDPE similar to Delrin ?

 

[DaveTas]

I know you are new, that said try Delrin bushings after turning to size BEFORE you sand at all. The metal from your bushings has transferred to the wood. This is especially true with lighter woods. I've been there!

Buy 5/8" Delrin white rod on Amazon or at a Grainger near you. It should be $10 or so. Cut a 1" long piece. Drill a 1/4" hole through the exact center. If you don't yet drill on your lathe, plan to do that ASAP. Well spent money indeed. Use your existing bushing next to the 1" Delrin with the new hole in your pen turning mandrel. Turn the larger dimension first to match your metal bushing. Use a micrometer to get it right if you have one. Sand at the end, just the Delrin. Flip over the bushing and the Delrin so the narrow end of the metal touches the unturned Delrin. Now turn the narrow side down to match the narrow end of the metal bushing. I then flush up the ends and slightly chamfer the edges. Do this for any other bushings needed for the pen kit. Again, turn with the factory metal bushing and sand with the Delrin- problem solved forever.

Here are some examples

Thanks for your help. I will look into Delrin suppliers. I am in the backwaters of Australia ie Tasmania.

 

[DaveTas]

Dave as you get more experienced you will see that CA is probably a much better finish and there are many ways to apply which is a learning experience. You will find out quickly the dos and don'ts and how temp, humidity, kind of CA and excellorators used can make or break the finish. Then you will find out days where you did not wear your yellow socks and things just go haywire.

But you will also find out that there is no need to start so low on the grid scale and no need to go so high on it. I actually do not sand most of the time and go right from finishing with a skew to sealing with thin CA and go from there. Take it slow and learn as you go.

Thanks for your help. I'll play with less sanding. I really noticed the difference made by the micromesh pads, from 600 paper through to the 12000mm it was amazing how smooth it ended up. It was huon pine this pen but I can see how it would be vital for acrylic.

To apply CA I've seen craft foam recommended so trying to source small quantities of that. a youtuber said that paper towel was used to soak up liquid, not apply liquid, which made sense. He used strips of foam and cut off the ends after using a small piece for application of a coat. My first problem is a good source of thin & medium in Tasmania.. any Aussies recommend a postal supplier?

 

[DaveTas]

@DaveTas

Please tell me ... in your finishing sequence of 150, 180, 220, 300, 400, 600, EEE, Micromesh, SS, FP and then Wax ... ..

... what do you mean by SS and FP ... and what "Wax" did you use ?

I am currently experimenting with some new finishing routines

Thanks in advance

This is what I found at carbatec (Australian supplier)

 

[DaveTas]

Has anyone tried PETP rod instead of HTDP/Delrin/Acetal ?

 

[magpens]

@DaveTas
If you have a craft supply store, they might have the "craft foam". . Here in Nth Am two store names are "Hobby Lobby" and "Michael's".
But just because paper towels absorb the glue does not disqualify them ... the blue shop towels may be best, and I have used them for years because I don't particularly like using craft foam. . Some folks use the little plastic baggies that come in pen kits but I could not get them to work for me.

When I use the blue shop towels (small piece folded over), I don't actually apply the CA to it. . I set up my lathe speed to be ultra slow (about 15 rpm) and drip the CA from above onto the blank while holding the shop towel underneath and in contact with the blank. . As the CA drips onto the blank's top, I move the shop towel quite rapidly back and forth lengthwise along the blank. . People develop different techniques. . Just try something. But whatever your method, try to avoid CA getting on your lathe bed and other parts. . I spread out a doubled-over rag or fabric towel.

CA can make a nice finish but it will require sanding (I sand after every 2 layers of CA). . Also, CA is not necessarily the best. . Depends what you like and some folks don't care for the look and feel of it. . It does produce a nice shine, if that is what you like, but you do have to work pretty hard to get that and it does not come easy to develop the right technique ... takes lots of trial, mistakes to get it sanded and polished to the right degree.

 

[magpens]

I haven't heard of PETP, but give it a try. . If it is fairly hard and machinable to the right shape it should work, as long as usual solvents don't attack it and CA glue does not stick to it. PETP might be something we are familiar with over here by a different name .... sometimes names are different in Australia. . I know that because I lived and worked in Adelaide for about 12 years back in the 70's and 80's.

With regard to the surface finishing ....
I like the EEE and Shellawax that you show above.
Also, there is a product called "MinWax Wipe On Poly" which has been used and recommended highly by one of our members. . "MinWax" is the brand name. . Sometimes it is described by MWWOP, or similar, just using the initials. . That members name is Les R. Elm and he has written a tutorial which you can read in the Reference section of this forum. . I don't know the correct chemical name for the product, but we call it "Wipe On Poly".
I believe it takes a lot longer than CA to dry. . Les Elm applies it using what he calls a "Dipping Method" and if you do a search using those words you should pull up some references to his recent work, and maybe even a direct reference to his tutorial.

I just found the tutorial ... it is by Les R. Elm and his IAP name is "rd_ab_penman" ... but just search the Resources for "Dipping Method" and you should get it, altho' it might come up under the name of "Wayne" who is one of the IAP site managers and he is the person who vets and approves all the articles and tutorials that are submitted.

Here is a very recent thread started by Les Elm .... https://www.penturners.org/threads/another-school.163577/#post-2061745
This shows some of his latest work.

 

[Ironwood]

I have used Acetal rod off ebay with success. Not sure if it differs much from Delrin, but it works.

BLACK ACETAL ROD - 15mm DIAMETER X 245mm LONG - FREE SHIPPING | eBay

BLACK ACETAL ROD. Black Acetal Rod. EXCELLENT TO MACHINE. We machine all plastic components. • Rollers and precision parts. • Electrical insulators and connectors. • Bearing cages. • Wear plates.

www.ebay.com.au

My process now is, I use the bushes between centres ( no mandrel ), turn down to within 1mm, then take the bushes off and put the blank/brass tube directly in between the centres. Finish turning down to size, then sand and finish also between centres. This eliminates the "out of round" issues associated with using a mandrel, and the bushes, which are rarely perfect.
If you do end up going this way, be careful not to over tighten the tailstock, or you will flare the ends of the brass tube, light cuts with a sharp tool are a must.
Though if you are just starting out, probably better to keep using the mandrel until you gain some experience and become comfortable with the process.
Welcome to the forum.

 

[Ironwood]

I use the craft foam for applying CA, I get it from one of the one dollar shops here. Costs about a dollar a sheet, a sheet lasts me a long time, I cut it into strips about 15mm wide.
Since I started using it I have cut my CA usage in half at least. All of the CA now ends up on the blank, not soaking into the blue rag or paper towel.

 

[jttheclockman]

You will hear different methods used with different materials as you go along. I too use blue shop paper towels and have since I started. I learned this from here and have never had a problem. I make 2 swipes back and forth with each layer and no more than that. No need to keep going over it. So many methods and you will find yours. good luck.

 

[KenB259]

I've tried many methods. I have the best luck with blue towels. I tried the foam , made nothing but a mess. The fact that the towels absorb a little bit gives me some control. Whatever method works for you is the correct method.


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[Sylvanite]

I have used Acetal rod off ebay with success. Not sure if it differs much from Delrin, but it works.

"Delrin" is a brand name for Acetal, just like "Plexiglass" is a brand name for acylic.

 

[DaveTas]

@DaveTas
If you have a craft supply store, they might have the "craft foam". . Here in Nth Am two store names are "Hobby Lobby" and "Michael's".
But just because paper towels absorb the glue does not disqualify them ... the blue shop towels may be best, and I have used them for years because I don't particularly like using craft foam. . Some folks use the little plastic baggies that come in pen kits but I could not get them to work for me.

When I use the blue shop towels (small piece folded over), I don't actually apply the CA to it. . I set up my lathe speed to be ultra slow (about 15 rpm) and drip the CA from above onto the blank while holding the shop towel underneath and in contact with the blank. . As the CA drips onto the blank's top, I move the shop towel quite rapidly back and forth lengthwise along the blank. . People develop different techniques. . Just try something. But whatever your method, try to avoid CA getting on your lathe bed and other parts. . I spread out a doubled-over rag or fabric towel.

CA can make a nice finish but it will require sanding (I sand after every 2 layers of CA). . Also, CA is not necessarily the best. . Depends what you like and some folks don't care for the look and feel of it. . It does produce a nice shine, if that is what you like, but you do have to work pretty hard to get that and it does not come easy to develop the right technique ... takes lots of trial, mistakes to get it sanded and polished to the right degree.

I have no idea what your blue towels are, are they paper or fabric?
If you sand between CA coats what grit?

I was thinking for a CA finish on timber, I should do 400, 600, EEE? (or would EEE interfere with the CA?), Thin x3 or 5, Medium 3 or 5, then micromesh 1500 to 12000 ? any friction polish?

 

[Ironwood]

I d

I have no idea what your blue towels are, are they paper or fabric?
If you sand between CA coats what grit?

I was thinking for a CA finish on timber, I should do 400, 600, EEE? (or would EEE interfere with the CA?), Thin x3 or 5, Medium 3 or 5, then micromesh 1500 to 12000 ? any friction polish?

I don't think EEE would be a good idea for preparation before CA. Just sand with wet and dry paper, up to 600 is fine, if you have a compressor, blow the dust out of the wood pores before applying the CA. On oily woods like Huon, a wipe with acetone will help as well, make sure you wait for the acetone to dry before you start with the CA, the compressor can help here too.
How many coats is a bit hard to advise. I go by thickness. I turn and sand the blank down to 0.1mm under the size of the pen components, then keep applying coats of CA until I am about 0.2mm oversize, then once the CA has cured, I sand down to size, then buff.
Everyone has their own process , developed through trail and error, what works for some, fails for others .

The best advice I can give, is when you are ready to try Ca, put a piece of scrap wood in the lathe, turn and sand down to about pen size and practice , practice, practice applying CA. You might Master it quickly, or like me, it might take a lot of trying and much frustration. But you will eventually get it. Different CAs have different characteristics, not all are the same, and the fresher the better.

 

[magpens]

I have no idea what your blue towels are, are they paper or fabric?
If you sand between CA coats what grit?

I was thinking for a CA finish on timber, I should do 400, 600, EEE? (or would EEE interfere with the CA?), Thin x3 or 5, Medium 3 or 5, then micromesh 1500 to 12000 ? any friction polish?

@DaveTas

The "blue shop towels" are a heavy duty paper ... often used in automotive shops (that's why they are called "shop" towels) for cleanup and handling parts ... they are not fabric.
I think they are a little stronger than "white kitchen towels" which you buy in the grocery story.

When I do a CA finish on timber, I would not use EEE. . In fact, I would not use EEE on bare wood, only on wood that had another "finish" applied first. . But I could very well be misunderstanding the purpose of EEE . . I know that it does have some light abrasive in it, but I would not count on that abrasive to work very well on bare wood. . I would use the EEE after first applying CA perhaps, or some other "sealer" or semi-hard finish.
But, as I said, I might not be understanding the proper use of EEE.

My routine to prepare for CA application would be sanding only ... start at 180 (if necessary), then 240, 320, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1200, 1500, 2000.
(I might stop after 800 depending on the hardness of the wood and the surface quality of the turned surface).
Then I would apply 2 coats of thin CA and lightly sand with 400 grit; another 2 coats of thin and lightly sand ... these light sandings are just to get the high spots off the CA.
Then I would apply a coat of medium CA and sand with 320 (sometimes I will continue with thin CA and use it all the way through.
Another coat of CA and sand ... these sandings are more than "light" sandings because the thickness of CA has built up and can take more sanding.
Repeat this 3 or 4 times, until .......
Until I am getting the CA surface nice and smooth without any bumps/hollows and I am NOT sanding through to wood.
When I am happy with the surface, I will go to 400 grit, 600, 800, ....., 2000 ....
Or, I might go 400, 600, 800 and then use "Mequiar's Coarse", an automotive product with abrasive, followed by "Mequiar's Fine" and then follow that by "PlastX" (and automotive with no abrasive) for the final shine.
This is my usual routine, but it has taken several years getting to this ... there has been lots of trial and error, as I think everyone goes through.

The "Mequiar's coarse" would be classified as a friction polish, I think .... or possibly, more correctly, as a "cut polish".

I am really not sure what a "friction polish" is ... maybe it is like Shellawax, which dries fairly quickly and gets shinier the more/harder you rub but does not contain any abrasives, but I have never used Shellawax after I have done the CA sequence.

Hope you get my meaning in all this ... feel free to ask.