New Turner Needs Help

[Packinheat]

Hi everyone,
Im new to pen turning (2 months) and was wondering if someone would be able to help me with a few questions and problems im having;

1. What speed should I be turning and sanding at? The locals who I have talked to around here have told me that I can turn as fast as Im comfortable with but I have some pens that I cannot seem to rid of sanding marks no matter what I try (faster, slower doesnt seem to matter). I have been sanding as slow as 1000 Rpm, is that still to fast?
2. What grit should I start and end sanding at? I have been starting at 220 and going through all the steps right to 800 and sometimes higher.
3. I have tried using Shellawax which works good on some pens but others come out really streaky and Im not sure why? Is it the oils in the wood?
4. I have turned a bunch of Cabara pen kits but for some reason the nib never seems to line up with the barrel flush. The barrel sticks out past the nib on one side and is in to far on the other? All my other kits turned out fine so im wondering if its something with the Cabara kits or if my bushings are bad (they are almost new)? Im using the correct size pen mill to.

Thanks everyone, any help you can offer would be greatly appreciated!

Ryan

 

[PenMan1]

Hi Ryan!
Welcome to the madness. Those that advised you to turn as fast as your experience allows, gave good advice. I have found, over the years, that the faster I can turn, the fewer problems I encounter. There are always exceptions but "as fast as you are comfortable" is solid advice.

As for the sanding scratches that you can't eliminate, thus could very well be from NOT cross sanding. Cross sanding consists of turning the lathe off and sanding across the grain with each grade of sand paper (and micro mesh,if you use it).

The answer to your wax streaking issues, this MAY be explained away as simply as each wood reacts very differently to wax. My advice would be to check the library here and watch the YouTube Videos by William O Young and Russ Fairfield about applying a CA finish. As soon as you become proficient with CA, the sooner you will obtain consistently good and long lasting finishes.

I hope this helps. Respectfully submitted.

 

[David M]

i do most of my turning at a med. fast speed.

when sanding do you stop the lathe and sand with the grain between grades.

start at depend on how smoth the turing is finnished at

check the line up of tail stock to drive , if lined up, does mantle wobble?
check and make sure there is no glue on the inside of the tube or on the bushing befroe starting

David

 

[Smitty37]

Some help

Hi everyone,
Im new to pen turning (2 months) and was wondering if someone would be able to help me with a few questions and problems im having;

1. What speed should I be turning and sanding at? The locals who I have talked to around here have told me that I can turn as fast as Im comfortable with but I have some pens that I cannot seem to rid of sanding marks no matter what I try (faster, slower doesnt seem to matter). I have been sanding as slow as 1000 Rpm, is that still to fast?
2. What grit should I start and end sanding at? I have been starting at 220 and going through all the steps right to 800 and sometimes higher.
3. I have tried using Shellawax which works good on some pens but others come out really streaky and Im not sure why? Is it the oils in the wood?
4. I have turned a bunch of Cabara pen kits but for some reason the nib never seems to line up with the barrel flush. The barrel sticks out past the nib on one side and is in to far on the other? All my other kits turned out fine so im wondering if its something with the Cabara kits or if my bushings are bad (they are almost new)? Im using the correct size pen mill to.

Thanks everyone, any help you can offer would be greatly appreciated!

Ryan

Sanding - between grits on sanding make sure you sand by hand lengthwise on the barrel after every grit.

I start with 150 then it's 220 - 340 - 400 - 600 then I go to micro mesh and go a few steps higher,

I usually slow the lathe for sanding but have no real idea of what speed it is running at - probably 1000 or so rpm.

Never had an issue with Shellawax.

 

[PenMan1]

The "nib not lining up on one side and sticking out on the other side" usually indicated a bent or bowed mandrel. You hear this referenced here as "out of Round" or "out of concentric.

Generally, a bowed mandrel is cause by over tightening either the tail stock or the brass mandrel nut.

The Simpliest way to check for a bent mandrel is to remove it from the taper and roll it across any flat surface. A bent mandrel will wobble.

 

[ed4copies]

What kind of blanks? Sanding differs based on the type of wood and definitely changes if there is resin involved.

 

[jaywood1207]

I run my lathe on the lowest speed in my high range for sanding which is around 1500 RPM. I find if I try to sand any faster I have problems.

 

[ed4copies]

Oh, there is every possibility your bushings are not round. More specifically, the hole is not in the middle.

If the bushing LOOKS like its wobbling when you turn, it is not centered. OR the inner diameter can be off compared with the outer. If this out of round is only happening on one end, switch the bushings and see if the problem transfers to the other end--with the bushing.

 

[PenMan1]

One other thing to check as "your other pens turn out fine" is the cabrerra bushings, the y could be out of round.

 

[ctubbs]

Put a good light behind the lathe and run the lathe as if you are turning a blank. Look at the bushing. if there is ghosting, (looks like a shadow you can see through) then dither the bushing is out of round or the mandrel is bent. Roll the mandrel on something flat such as your table saw top. If it shows high spot it is bent. Check the Moris taper, wipe it with a good clean lent free cloth and be sure that it has no pieces of stuff inside. Use a lite lub on the cloth. Check the male taper to be sure it is also clean. The smallest bit of foreign material will mess up the alignment. Just tighten the brass nut enough to make the blank spin. Be sure to use a 60 degree live center in the tailstock. Do not use one of those with the tiny pimple in a cup live center. It will not hold the end of the mandrel steady. DAMHIKT *don't ask me how I know this) Be sure to use sharp tools. If your tool becomes dull, you will apply more pressure to make the cut and push the mandrel away causing out of round. Apply just enough pressure with the tail stock to secure the mandrel end. Too much will bow the mandrel. Let me see, is that all the mistakes I made so far? I am sure more will come to mind after I post this. come on guys, offer some of your barrel of honor stories.
Charles

 

[PenMan1]

I turn EVERYTHING half-fast

let the verbal abuse begin

 

[boxerman]

I used adjustable mandrel and mandrel saver. The adjustable mandrel is suppose help so you don't bend your mandrel. Also a lot of people on here turn between centers so there is no mandrel to bend. I turn at high speed and sand at a slower speed.

 

[Packinheat]

Hi Ryan!
Welcome to the madness. Those that advised you to turn as fast as your experience allows, gave good advice. I have found, over the years, that the faster I can turn, the fewer problems I encounter. There are always exceptions but "as fast as you are comfortable" is solid advice.

As for the sanding scratches that you can't eliminate, thus could very well be from NOT cross sanding. Cross sanding consists of turning the lathe off and sanding across the grain with each grade of sand paper (and micro mesh,if you use it).

The answer to your wax streaking issues, this MAY be explained away as simply as each wood reacts very differently to wax. My advice would be to check the library here and watch the YouTube Videos by William O Young and Russ Fairfield about applying a CA finish. As soon as you become proficient with CA, the sooner you will obtain consistently good and long lasting finishes.

I hope this helps. Respectfully submitted.

Thats great advice thank you! I have tried cross sanding but perhaps im not doing enough of it? I turned some Paduak last week and could see little tiny lines through much of it. I cant tell if they are sanding/tooling marks because they look almost like a finger print in the sense that one line will split into two then three, and the lines are not straight. I dont know if its something just in the wood or if its sanding marks. I have turned lots of dyed burl, coco, rosewoods, etc and didnt seem to have as many issues with sanding marks. Nonetheless i will check out those videos!

Thanks again for all the advice!

 

[Packinheat]

i do most of my turning at a med. fast speed.

when sanding do you stop the lathe and sand with the grain between grades.

start at depend on how smoth the turing is finnished at

check the line up of tail stock to drive , if lined up, does mantle wobble?
check and make sure there is no glue on the inside of the tube or on the bushing befroe starting

David

Hi David, Everything appears to be fine, the only thing I can think of is the bushing because all the other pen styles I have turned came out fine.

Thanks for the reply!

 

[Lee K]

setting up incandescent lights at different angles lets you see the progress of your sanding as well. (fluorescents don't cast shadows the same)

Sanding marks are sneaky .... i saw some I missed today in a whole different lighting environment.

 

[Packinheat]

Thanks for all the advice guys I will check on all your suggestions and let you know!

Much appreciated!

Ryan

 

[brewtang]

The parallel sanding will help, but you should also start sanding at a lower grit as well. 120 to 150. The most important sanding grit is the lowest one that you use. It's job is to remove the tool marks. Each grit after that is to remove the scratches from the previous grit. If you start out too high, you'll never get the scratches out.
Also, make sure to wipe the blank off with a clean paper towel between each grit. The dust from the previous grit is the same grit as the paper that created it. Good Luck!

 

[NewLondon88]

Generally, a bowed mandrel is cause by over tightening either the tail stock or the brass mandrel nut.

Just curious, as I've seen this repeated here many times over the years.
I've probably repeated it myself.

But I have to wonder if there are people strong enough to actually bend
a mandrel by over-tightening the mandrel nut? I could see overtightening
the nut causing a poorly milled blank to cant to one side.. or to crack the
blank, bend the brass tube etc. But to bend the mandrel? I can't see it.
Nor would I care to arm wrestle the person who can.. :tongue:

.. just one of those things that keeps you awake..

 

[PenMan1]

Charlie:
The mandrel will bend before the tube, because the nut actually applies force to ROD, not the tube (except in the case of 7mm tubes, which actually comes into closer contact with the mandrel). The bushings actually provide support for the tube the mandrel is free to flex inside the tube.

And no, you don't want to shake hands with me as I can crack a walnut with one hand I have tightened the brass nut so hard as to twist off the end of the mandrel, and that was BEFORE my first drink.

 

[KenV]

Charlie -- I think when the dust settles, that the ability to bow the mandrel requires that the ends of the blanks are not evenly milled/sanded to fit the bushings or the bushings are not square to the rod -- my bet is that poor attention to the process and/or crud in the tube or on the bushings is the root cause.

Tension on the nut acerbates the missed alignment and pushes the string of parts into a zig zag -- just enough to distort the outcome.

 

[Packinheat]

Okay I did another Cabara tonight. I checked the mandrel, it didnt look bent (did the table test mentioned earlier). I used a brand new mandrel and new bushings and this pen turned out the same, maby not as bad as the first few but its still not a perfectly smooth transition from the nib to the barrel? Im thinking it must just be the kit...Most people probably wouldnt notice but im a perfectionist (perhaps thats the problem) and dont feel good selling something that isnt perfect or close to it.

Thanks again for all the replies everyone!

 

[NewLondon88]

it's possible.. but I'd try the thumbnail test before assigning the blame
to the kits.
Load up your tubes and bushings on the mandrel, put them in the lathe
and fire it up. Lightly touch your thumbnail to the various parts as it spins
and see if you feel anything but smooth movement. You should feel any
runout, which will at least tell you where to start..

 

[ren-lathe]

Generally, a bowed mandrel is cause by over tightening either the tail stock or the brass mandrel nut.

Just curious, as I've seen this repeated here many times over the years.
I've probably repeated it myself.

But I have to wonder if there are people strong enough to actually bend
a mandrel by over-tightening the mandrel nut? I could see overtightening
the nut causing a poorly milled blank to cant to one side.. or to crack the
blank, bend the brass tube etc. But to bend the mandrel? I can't see it.
Nor would I care to arm wrestle the person who can.. :tongue:

.. just one of those things that keeps you awake..

I have a very damaged right hand primarily the thumb so my grip is not what I used to have. I have a 1/8" thick plastic brace that encases my thumb from the first joint to the base of the thumb opens up but continues to my wrist & across the back of my hand it closes with a velcro strap across the palm. I have to wear this for any serious use of my hand. I can distort the mandrel by over torqueing the nut with out the brace on. This does not mean the rod is "bent" but rather distorted for that pen. do it enough & it will take on a permanent bend. If I can do it anyone can.

 

[jaywood1207]

Hi Ryan!
Welcome to the madness. Those that advised you to turn as fast as your experience allows, gave good advice. I have found, over the years, that the faster I can turn, the fewer problems I encounter. There are always exceptions but "as fast as you are comfortable" is solid advice.

As for the sanding scratches that you can't eliminate, thus could very well be from NOT cross sanding. Cross sanding consists of turning the lathe off and sanding across the grain with each grade of sand paper (and micro mesh,if you use it).

The answer to your wax streaking issues, this MAY be explained away as simply as each wood reacts very differently to wax. My advice would be to check the library here and watch the YouTube Videos by William O Young and Russ Fairfield about applying a CA finish. As soon as you become proficient with CA, the sooner you will obtain consistently good and long lasting finishes.

I hope this helps. Respectfully submitted.

Thats great advice thank you! I have tried cross sanding but perhaps im not doing enough of it? I turned some Paduak last week and could see little tiny lines through much of it. I cant tell if they are sanding/tooling marks because they look almost like a finger print in the sense that one line will split into two then three, and the lines are not straight. I dont know if its something just in the wood or if its sanding marks. I have turned lots of dyed burl, coco, rosewoods, etc and didnt seem to have as many issues with sanding marks. Nonetheless i will check out those videos!

Thanks again for all the advice!

For the paduak I would say it is right in the grain and not sanding lines. I have seen that before.

 

[PenMan1]

Charlie has the right idea. The "fingernail" test will give you good information.

As for being a perfectionist, IMHO, any pen that is "out of round" is not a good product, regardless of how out of round. The rest of the work can be beautiful, but the first thing that will be noticed is that it doesn't fit.

FWIW, the bushings for this kit are well known for the holes being drilled "off center". Charlie's fingernail test will help find if this is the problem.

 

[monophoto]

What speed should I be turning and sanding at? The locals who I have talked to around here have told me that I can turn as fast as Im comfortable with but I have some pens that I cannot seem to rid of sanding marks no matter what I try (faster, slower doesnt seem to matter). I have been sanding as slow as 1000 Rpm, is that still to fast?

Sanding generates heat, and the best advice is to sand at the slowest speed you can achieve on your lathe.

What grit should I start and end sanding at? I have been starting at 220 and going through all the steps right to 800 and sometimes higher.

The starting point depend on the quality of the surface you create when turning. I tend to start with P180, and work up through P220, P320, and 400. I've gone higher with pens, but I'm starting to believe that higher grits burnish the wood and interfere with the way that finish penetrates the surface of the wood.

I have tried using Shellawax which works good on some pens but others come out really streaky and Im not sure why? Is it the oils in the wood?

Different woods respond differently to finishes. Oily woods are a special challenge. Are you wiping the piece with a solvent prior to finishing? I normally wipe with denatured alcohol, but if its an especially oily wood (cocobolo, teak, etc), I use acetone. It may also help to apply a coat or two of sanding sealer (I use Zinsser) after wiping with acetone.

I have turned a bunch of Cabara pen kits but for some reason the nib never seems to line up with the barrel flush. The barrel sticks out past the nib on one side and is in to far on the other? All my other kits turned out fine so im wondering if its something with the Cabara kits or if my bushings are bad (they are almost new)? Im using the correct size pen mill to.

Not familiar with Cabara kits, and I'm not sure that I really understand what you are saying. Are you making BPs? And is the problem with the AXIAL alignment of the point (ie, it sticks out too far when extended, or isn't completely covered when withdrawn)? In that case, the problem is with the insertion of the transmission. There is a distinct line on the transmission that marks the correct insertion depth, but my experience is that it's approximate at best, and you need to tweak the depth a bit to get correct axial alignment.

Or are you saying that the nib is not centered in the barrel? In that case, the first question is whether you are tuning concentric barrels. Are you using a mandrel? Make sure that you tighten the nut at the end of the mandrel enough, and that you tighten tailpiece enough, but don't make either so tight that you are bowing the mandrel because that will lead to off-center turning.

 

[Packinheat]

it's possible.. but I'd try the thumbnail test before assigning the blame
to the kits.
Load up your tubes and bushings on the mandrel, put them in the lathe
and fire it up. Lightly touch your thumbnail to the various parts as it spins
and see if you feel anything but smooth movement. You should feel any
runout, which will at least tell you where to start..

I will give that at try thanks!

 

[Packinheat]

Hi Ryan!
Welcome to the madness. Those that advised you to turn as fast as your experience allows, gave good advice. I have found, over the years, that the faster I can turn, the fewer problems I encounter. There are always exceptions but "as fast as you are comfortable" is solid advice.

As for the sanding scratches that you can't eliminate, thus could very well be from NOT cross sanding. Cross sanding consists of turning the lathe off and sanding across the grain with each grade of sand paper (and micro mesh,if you use it).

The answer to your wax streaking issues, this MAY be explained away as simply as each wood reacts very differently to wax. My advice would be to check the library here and watch the YouTube Videos by William O Young and Russ Fairfield about applying a CA finish. As soon as you become proficient with CA, the sooner you will obtain consistently good and long lasting finishes.

I hope this helps. Respectfully submitted.

Thats great advice thank you! I have tried cross sanding but perhaps im not doing enough of it? I turned some Paduak last week and could see little tiny lines through much of it. I cant tell if they are sanding/tooling marks because they look almost like a finger print in the sense that one line will split into two then three, and the lines are not straight. I dont know if its something just in the wood or if its sanding marks. I have turned lots of dyed burl, coco, rosewoods, etc and didnt seem to have as many issues with sanding marks. Nonetheless i will check out those videos!

Thanks again for all the advice!

For the paduak I would say it is right in the grain and not sanding lines. I have seen that before.

Thats what I was thinking to

 

[Packinheat]

What speed should I be turning and sanding at? The locals who I have talked to around here have told me that I can turn as fast as Im comfortable with but I have some pens that I cannot seem to rid of sanding marks no matter what I try (faster, slower doesnt seem to matter). I have been sanding as slow as 1000 Rpm, is that still to fast?

Sanding generates heat, and the best advice is to sand at the slowest speed you can achieve on your lathe.

What grit should I start and end sanding at? I have been starting at 220 and going through all the steps right to 800 and sometimes higher.

The starting point depend on the quality of the surface you create when turning. I tend to start with P180, and work up through P220, P320, and 400. I've gone higher with pens, but I'm starting to believe that higher grits burnish the wood and interfere with the way that finish penetrates the surface of the wood.

I have tried using Shellawax which works good on some pens but others come out really streaky and Im not sure why? Is it the oils in the wood?

Different woods respond differently to finishes. Oily woods are a special challenge. Are you wiping the piece with a solvent prior to finishing? I normally wipe with denatured alcohol, but if its an especially oily wood (cocobolo, teak, etc), I use acetone. It may also help to apply a coat or two of sanding sealer (I use Zinsser) after wiping with acetone.

I have turned a bunch of Cabara pen kits but for some reason the nib never seems to line up with the barrel flush. The barrel sticks out past the nib on one side and is in to far on the other? All my other kits turned out fine so im wondering if its something with the Cabara kits or if my bushings are bad (they are almost new)? Im using the correct size pen mill to.

Not familiar with Cabara kits, and I'm not sure that I really understand what you are saying. Are you making BPs? And is the problem with the AXIAL alignment of the point (ie, it sticks out too far when extended, or isn't completely covered when withdrawn)? In that case, the problem is with the insertion of the transmission. There is a distinct line on the transmission that marks the correct insertion depth, but my experience is that it's approximate at best, and you need to tweak the depth a bit to get correct axial alignment.

Or are you saying that the nib is not centered in the barrel? In that case, the first question is whether you are tuning concentric barrels. Are you using a mandrel? Make sure that you tighten the nut at the end of the mandrel enough, and that you tighten tailpiece enough, but don't make either so tight that you are bowing the mandrel because that will lead to off-center turning.

No I havent been using any solvents, I hadnt even thought of that. What is DNA? Is that Denatured Alcohol? I have seen it mentioned a few times but im not up on the lingo yet.
Your second scenario is what Im talking about, the nib isnt centered on the barrel but its only this style of kit I have a problem with, every other kit I do is fine. I have changed the mandrel and the bushings and it still does it.

 

[Packinheat]

Charlie has the right idea. The "fingernail" test will give you good information.

As for being a perfectionist, IMHO, any pen that is "out of round" is not a good product, regardless of how out of round. The rest of the work can be beautiful, but the first thing that will be noticed is that it doesn't fit.

FWIW, the bushings for this kit are well known for the holes being drilled "off center". Charlie's fingernail test will help find if this is the problem.

I agree thats why it drives me crazy, I notice it. Thats the only thing I can think of is the bushings are drilled off centre. Im assuming they must have got a bad batch because the new bushings I used did it to but not as bad.

 

[OutofTurnSam]

If you want to stick with shellawax here are a couple things I've learned -

Use the liquid, it gives better results than the cream.

Sand as high as you can go before applying the shellawax. Shellawax is a shellac based friction polish that burns into the wood. So the smoother the wood is before the shellawax goes on, the better your results.

When applying the shellawax, pour a small amount on a folded paper towel and gently rub in on the blank with the lathe off. Once the blank is covered, pour a little more on the paper towel (same spot) and turn the lathe on. Make sure you rub all the shellawax off the paper towel and on the blank as soon as possible.

It does not take long to apply a shellawax finish, and the moment you see that shine that you want, stop finishing. When I've had streaking in the past with shellawax it has been because more finish came in contact with the blank after I had already polished the first coat in. Any coats of shellawax after the first coat are not nearly as durable. Shellawax is not meant to be applied over any other finish, like CA, so don't even try it. =)

Shellawax will dull with time (within days), but if you keep your pen protected for the first 3 weeks of life, it's suppose to be water proof and durable.

Now that I'm willing to take more time and slow things down a bit, I'm considering using a Minwax Poly for finishing. I know many people like CA, but I don't particularly care for it.

 

[leehljp]

For the paduak I would say it is right in the grain and not sanding lines. I have seen that before.

What Jamie said above.

I used to have a photo of padauk that showed the grain cell structure very clearly. I must have deleted it some time ago, but Padauk has a large cell structure that you can see with the naked eye very clearly when finished properly. It runs in lines and sometimes splits into two lines, and then again, it can show up as rings around the pen.

You are not the first one to wonder if he did something wrong with padauk in finishing when it was the grain/cells showing up.