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jeff

jeff

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Do we need a "Critique This Pen" Forum?
A member has suggested that we should have
a forum specifically for soliciting constructive
criticism. The existing "Show Off Your Pens" forum
is a fine showcase, but not everyone appreciates
a critique.
 
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Many members post pictures for the pleasure of showing their latest creations, but without the intent of having a detailed critique of their effort. Others are looking specifically for the value of "what have I done wrong" and "how can I improve". The current "Show off your pens" doesn't really give us the opportunity to know which is which, unless the member makes a specific request. Also, new members might feel very comfortable in providing a comment to "Show off your pens", but might feel less comfortable in providing a critique. I think this is an excellent suggestion, and hope that we can do this through the "thumbnail-link" feature rather than a complete dual (or triple) posting of the images.
 
I voted no. There may be only a few here who are even qualified to offer a really decent critique. Beyond fit and finish, all of the rest is subjective.

One person's masterpiece, is another person's clunker. It's all in the eye of the beholder.
 
Originally posted by timdaleiden
<br />I voted no. There may be only a few here who are even qualified to offer a really decent critique. Beyond fit and finish, all of the rest is subjective. One person's masterpiece, is another person's clunker. It's all in the eye of the beholder.
Click to expand...

Guess I find myself on the other side of the fence from Tim on this one. If by critique, you mean evaluating the technical merits of the pen, Tim may be correct in saying that not to many folks are qualified to comment. On the other hand, I wonder how much value there is to even an "experts" opinion since what they are actually evaluating is a picture and not a pen. A pen could look quite nice in a picture; but be a dog in person and if a persons photographic abilities were not on a par with the crafter's turning abilities a fair critique might also not be possible.

On the other hand, if the pencrafter is looking for a critique of the aesthetic properties of the pen, then, subjective though they may be, one members evaluation is just as valid as that of any other be they expert or novice......or so, at least, it seems to me??? In fact a person who has never even turned a pen could have a perfectly valid opinion about the aesthetics of a pen!!

Technical perfection is a commendable goal to aspire to; but my guess is that the average pen purchaser or gift recipient is much more interested in whether the pen is visually appealing and feels good in hand than they are in the fact that the barrel is a few thousandths proud of the centerband. So before we decide who is competent and who is not relative to critiquing pens, it might be best to know exactly what type of information the turner is trying to elicit!!

I like the idea of a forum to evaluate pens......I think people would be more inclined to offer more honest and frank opinions. I'm a little tired of the current forum that has hundreds of threads of the form.......post with picture of a new pen and 20 socially correct responses that say "nice pen."
 
Pictures can be very deceiving. Based on a lot of different factors. And this is what you would be critiquing.
The very best looking pen might look pretty bad in a picture.
For this reason I think the individual could ask for comments if they want feedback.
Harry
 
Jeff I really like the idea of the opportunity to request remarks as an option rather than a forum.
As to the wording of the question,"Do we need a "Critique This Pen" Forum?
There might be some votes cast no because the unwanted addition of another forum regardless what it is.
When the question of a finishing forum came up I voiced my opinion that the penturning forum already covered that subject and I believe the way the search function is set up, along with active topics the addition of the finishing forum is extraneous.(just my opinion)
I am not sure that is a good way to word the poll but there are a lot of ways to ask(and answer a question)
Certainly if a poster remembered to invite comments on the "show off your best work" forum a critique forum would not be necessary.
There are are many I imagine who feel comfortable enough with their work they expect and appreciate others comments when they post in "Show off your pens"
There are also those who proudly post the first pen they ever made and it would HAVE to be their best work as it is their only work to date.
I am amazed at pens pictured in the SOYP forum.,both the execution of the work and the photography.
What surprises me though are remarks made to the effect of "nice job" when the picture shows vi sable flaws in fit and finish.
I wonder the purpose of telling the creator you did a great job when I see such flaws.
If remarks or comments are not invited I usually do not make any,That is not to say If I don't make a comment that I didn't like the pen.With the volume of posts and the amount of pictures and the fact I do not touch type it is difficult to keep up with them all.
I do however at times send a P.M. when I think I can offer a suggestion.I do this so as to not hold the pen up to "ridicule " and possibly discourage the creator. Sometimes this prompts a dialogue via e-mail that would have otherwise wound up in the thread .
It has also prompted phone conversations that have given me insight to forum members and added a personal aspect to a Cyber person.
Ironically I agree with statements made by both Tim and Randy though I lean more to Randys position.
What better opinion of work done is there than by a person peers?
Most pens submitted here are not done so as a sounding board prior to submittal to the PMG, but the poster might try a different combination of woods, or a different shape ,mixture of components or materials of a pen that he or she wants an opinion of.
A picture is a lousy way to evaluate a pen, but with the quality of the pictures I have seen, some flaws are highly visible such as rings showing up whether they are in the material itself or the finish.I have seen components with poor fit and yet the pens receive praise when a suggestion as to the better execution of these aspects would only serve to raise the pencrafters awareness that they might raise their standards as to what they consider"best work"
My best work today is not the best work of what I did a month ago or 11 months ago..
A while back someone started a thread about what is your favorite pen, what do you carry?
My answer was along the lines of I haven't made it yet.
It is hard to imagine how a second forum composed primarily of photographs will compete with the current SOYP forum.
Quite possibly most who do post pictures of recent work actually want an honest opinion and are not discouraged by suggestions as to how to improve their craft. They just forget to mention that such remarks are appreciated.
Recently there was a pen posted that had a number of NPGJ posts(nice pen great job) I spotted two significant flaws in it.
If the design were repeated the way the crafter made the first one each subsequent attempt would result in work that I am sure the originator would realize could be improved.
If I posted an uninvited comment about the flaws that are clearly evident not only did I call attention to them but I also may embarrass the posters who had previously made the NPGJ posts.In this instance I chose to write a pm to the creator of the pen in question and that person knows where the flaws are and what created them.The ironic result is based on the remarks made, he might question the validity of future comments made by the people who complimented him but did not point out the pens shortcomings.
If there were some way to invite comments automatically it would be an educational experience for ALL members who participate.
Lastly, the photographs themselves.
THere is a fad(of which I attempted once) of posing the pen with a decorative a backdrop.If this is done with the purpose of marketing the pen then of course presenting the pen in the best possible light is important.
But if I am viewing a pen for the sake of seeing the work the FROU FROU backdrops only serve as a distraction.
In many cases if they are copied and pasted the appearance of the pen is one of a "rendition" rather than a "photograph' of the pen itself.
In this case I enjoy the steak not the sizzle.I have no intentions of buying any pens posted here. In the future I will refrain from posting any more of my work in a posed setting. What I want you to see is the pen, not a pretty backdrop behind it.
If I were to take a picture that was intended to be in a catalog that is a different matter .
If I post a picture for viewing by other pencrafters my intention to show my pencrafting skill not the photography skills I do not have.
To sum it up I don't know if another forum is necessary but I would like to see some option that invites me to make a comment with out fear that I may embarrass or discourage the original poster or readers of the post who have previously critiqued the work..
 
It's hard to say something negative about someone's work. Especially when that person is proud of their creation. Instead viewers will not say anything at all if they don't like what they see.

Here is the hard part. If you want a critique, you need to have a very thick skin. Someone will eventually say "Your pen looks like crap" and you should not take it personally. Allot of people have a hard time with negative feel back.

But there are some who would like an honest opinion of their turning skills. They will use this info to help improve themselves. Me, I would rather brutal honest assessment than a dishonest high-5. I have a strong desire to improve myself. I voted yes.

There should be some ground rules, such as.
If you don't want a critique - Don't ask for one.
If the turner didn't ask for a critique, - Don't give one.
Critique is not a place to get even with someone or an opportunity to flame someone.
When you give a critique offer both a positive and a negative comment. In other words, tell the turner what you like about the pen and what you don't like about the pen.
 
I think the ability to solicit honest critiques would definitely be a plus. I look at it this way; if I'm getting ready to do a craft show and I post a style that I'm hoping would really sell well, I would really like to know if there is a flaw in my pens that will keep me from selling them. Or maybe I like a particular wood/pen kit combo that is truly horrible. I'd like to know that too.

I think the ground rules that Ron laid out are a good base.
 
Critiques are helpful to anyone willing to accept constructive criticzms. For that reason I voted 'yes'. On the other hand, I recognize that there are those who may use intemperate words to belittle those who submit their pens. Not long ago someone denigrated about 98% of all pen makers as those who 'just turn bushing to bushing'. That was very snooty and rude. We don't need that.
 
LOL...figures I'd be the tie-making vote!

While I appreciate all the "nice pen" comments in the Show Off Your Pen forum, I usually make a point of asking for criticism because I recognize that such feedback is the only way to further hone my skills. By the same token, I recognize that not everyone is looking for such feedback, and perhaps the best way to make sure someone doesn't "accidentally" get criticism/critiques when that isn't wanted is to have a separate forum for it.
 
Ron stated it well. A comparison that I use is writing. I have been a writer all my life. And I have been an editor. That experience has taught me that every writer needs an editor. One simply cannot see ones own messteaks. [;)] I belong to a writers group whose function is to critique. Sometimes well-meaning comments can hurt the pride of the writer. But very often the input reveals what others see in your work that may be different that the message the creator thought he was delivering. If you can't handle honesty with respect to what others see in your pens, don't submit. Conversely, if you cannot state opinions, whether positive or negative, objectively, don't offer those opinions. I say, go for it.
 
For the beginning penturner, the accomplishment of completing a pen is an exciting event. One that is most likely desirable to share with friends and family. I can imagine that few first second or even thirtieth pens are not plucked from the pen vise to be paraded before anyone that can be found with comments like. how about this one? It is not an invitation to cretique that pen in question. it is a natural expression of having accomplished anouther item.
Pens posted in show off your pens to me are just this. showing off your pens. "that's nice" comments are quite appropriate for such posts.
to request a Cretique is quite anouther thing. many would not want to subject there creations to such comments. For those that would. a seperate forum would be just the place to do so without confusion.
as for issues with to many forums. the Yahoo penturners group is quite an effective solution.
no forums to confuse,and no stars.
 
I tend to agree with Ron and Frank and Daniel..
There are a lot of newbies making pens and submitting the pics.. and they have a right to be proud of their accomplishments.. whether another member or I think it is a work of art is of absolutely no consequence at this point.. it is their piece of art... they are proud.
Personally, I tend to stay away from critiquing pens unless personally asked to... not because I think I will hurt someone's feelings, but because I have no idea of what they are trying to accomplish.. I have my way of creating a pen. I tend to be fairly conservative in the shape of my pens and the materials I use. I do acrylics, but my primary love is good burls. I am still looking for the perfect finish (who here is not???). My customers seem to like a high gloss deep finish... personally I think that certain woods should not be done that way... but then again, that is MY OPINION...
Also without holding the pen in my hands and looking it over carefully, how can I give an honest opinion of how the pen is done. I have posted pics of pens that look like the bottom half of the barrel is dull, I know it is the picture because I have the pen here to look at... and unless I told you it was the pic, you might say "The finish is horrible"...
Also not everyone posting a pen can do great photography (I am still learing new stuff every time)... You really can not give a good and accurate critique without seeing the pen up close and personal.
I have no problems with members telling me what they think of my work... especially those who have put in the time to create stunning pens. Would it hurt my feelings if someone did not like a pen I thought was fantastic.. Probably. Would it make me change the way I do things.. Probably not... Would it make me think about a way to maybe improve what the person did not like.. DEFINATELY..
<b>AS LONG AS THE CRITIQUE WAS HONEST, THOUGHT OUT, WELL MEANING, AND WITHOUT MALICE.</b>
6-11-05 Edit... BTW, don't be surprised if I don't post to the new forum... I have no problem with anyone critiquing my pens in the Show Your Pens area... been good enough for us so far... don't fix what ain't broke..
 
I wouldn't have a problem with a new forum or topic because the way that I see it is that most people who would want advice or critisisim would be looking for it in the style or some sort of unique non-kit creation. I don't think that most would subject themselves to critisism with some flat stick kit pen that a lot of people do as a first pen. I'm thinking of maybe Bruce Boones, Eagles blue jean or bullet or some of the close body pens that we have seen, I think that that would be the types that would be using this sort of forum. Any of us who have turned more than a few pens already know that you can't get an honest opinion on a finish. I don't believe that it would be that difficult to look at a photo of something like these particular pens and give an honest opinion. If someone is going to resort to touching up a photo who does it hurt, what is at risk, we aren't offering any prises or grading someones work just giving an opinion. Only the person who cheated gets hurt, its their reputatin at risk not ours.

Wayne
 
When I have posted pictures of any of my pens I have asked for honest critique. I want to improve my skills with each instrument I create. I would not want several people telling me a pen is great and perfect and then find out it will not sell because it is butt ugly. I welcome constructive input. Thanks to all of you who have responded to my posts. Having said this, I voted yes to the new forum.
 
It's true that any of us enjoy the recognition and respect from others on our pens. When you work hard on something you would prefer that others view it in a favorable light. Having such a forum will allow the poster to steel himself before getting brutally honest feedback. It is something that's hard to take when you're not expecting it. When you do want the feedback, you need to step back and realize that it's what it takes to take the pens to the next level, even if it's not what you want to hear.
 
I vote yes to this new forum and I'm agree with Ron, if you want perfect yourself you have to accept all type of comments good or bad, how do you want to improve if everyone say " very nice " all the time. BTW the forum as all ready started, look at the last post of cteaglesc in the penturning " just because " and the one of Tim in last year August or September about " I hate this pen ", so a forum like a slaughterhouse[:D] for serious penturner who want to perform the best and push themself to the limit to achieve they idea is welcome by me.

Two brains are better than one.
 
I voted NO, for the fact, if you "Show off your Pen" you would expect critique both good, bad or indiffernet. I interpet show of your pen to mean...Hey, look what I made...what do you think?? Take that info to improve on your next pen. I really like the ones that will post three pictures of three different pens. I'll single out one that is CLEARLY the best and am allways surprised how others will clearly see the other pens as their favorite. It ussually ends up being an even split. So just because someone may have a negative comment on a pen, doesn't allways mean there right, it's just an objective opinion that should be taken with a grain of salt.
 
I voted yes.

While most of the time I look forward to the comments, critiques, when I post a pic of a pen. Some others may not. I don't think I have enough experience to pass along anything other than the usual niceties. One day that will change.
 
I voted no, I already get bored jumping around to different rooms. By the time I change rooms 3 or 4 times looking for new post I get bored and leave. The more forums you have the fewer post you end up with in each one. How do I know this? Well, I don't really. lol But it makes sense to me.

I remember when I first came here and posted my first few pens. I thought it was great (and still do) when other members jumped in to give me there thoughts and suggestions. Even as a newbie I didn't always agree with every suggestion but I still liked seeing other ways of doing something. I learned a lot in a short time from this forum and it wasn't always from asking for help. I think people come here in general to learn from others and see different ways of doing things.

I feel if you don't want to hear what people think of your work then just put your pens in the album and leave them there without posting to the forum. But what fun would that be? I guess I just don't get it and I'm trying to look at it from both ends! If I was just starting out I'd want to know if I was doing it right and find out how to improve on my pens. And if I was the best of the best then I'd want to show my work and hope someone could learn from it.

Jeff, I think it's great that you would put this to a vote for a member. It's just another reason I feel this is the greatest show on earth and your doing a wonderful job! And as usual I see I'm way out numbered on this vote, it sure gets lonely at the top. lol But whatever you come up with, it ends here and I'll adjust to it. Good luck and just say NO! [:D]
 
I too found the number of "rooms" daunting until I found that I could set up the "Active topics" to the last time I had read the site.
It made it easier to scroll to the threads I had already read that had new posts, and to continue where I left off.
Doing it this way I dont have to scroll each individual forum.
 
Rethinking this I have to agree with WoodChucker! To satisfy everyone, can you add a check-off block in the "Show Off Album" to indicate critiques invited? Or would that just pressure everyone too much? Remember, some of us don't care or worry about what others think! With that in mind, would everyone feel honor bound to keep their opinions to themselves if they weren't asked for?[}:)]

WHAT WAS I THINKING?[:D][}:)][:p]
 
Originally posted by Thumbs
<br />... can you add a check-off block in the "Show Off Album" to indicate critiques invited?...
Click to expand...
I spoke with Jeff and the check box suggestion involves way too much coding. As always, Jeff is looking for the most effective way to serve the membership. [8D]
 
I voted no. Seems to me that the moderators have enough forums to handle without adding another. I read all the posts and tend to agree with Griz and Eagle. If you want a critique, a picture is not the really the way to get it. Some flaws can be hidden by posing the pen or distance from the camera. I think the operative words are "show off". The forum is for saying "hey, look what I did".

I liked Eagle's post and since I am really trying to improve my skills, I may abuse him and ask for private critiques that he mentions. (Eagle is not the only one I would use...there are others)I am thick skinned enough to handle it.

I like to use that forum for inspiration, too. A lot of people come up with some great designs.

Bottom line...if you want an honest critique ask for it, don't try to hide the flaws, and have a really good picture of the pen.
 
Lou, I wonder if a special icon just like the purple folders might somehow be used if the poster wants critical review. That sounds pretty similar to the check box though, so might be tough to implement.
 
Bruce--I'm near as dumb as a post on this coding stuff, but I can tell you that I'll hash a lot of these great ideas over with Jeff. I'll also reiterate that within reasonable efforts and time constraints, Jeff has always been responsive to our wants. This idea will be no different.
 
Originally posted by btboone
<br />Maybe there's an icon somewhere with a term paper that has a bunch of red marks all over it. I remember those days!
Click to expand...
Something like this?
deal.gif
 
I voted no on this poll but now that Ron and I have posted pens in the show off your pens forum under the title critique. I have changed my mind. I think we all could learn a lot from this new forum. I learned a lot from the comments made about my pen. Thanks Ron for starting the test. Who is next?...
 
Lou and I were discussing this idea and we cam to the conclusion that it might be a pretty close descision.
The results so far are not overwhelming but certainly are surprising.
It alsmost seems that the description of the existing forum should be changed to include remarks unless you DON'T want a critique.
 
Are we really ready for all that honesty? Maybe once in a while, but every poster would have to declare his timidity or risk severe burns! If we're trying to save data storage space, this oughta do it....... Better two forums, I think, than intimidating and dampening the enthusiasm of newbies and just plain shy oldsters!
 
<b>I can only speak as a beginning turner. I have seen a pen that I wouldn't let my dog go fetch, generate so many "nice pen" comments that it turned my stomach. If it were me, receiving the remarks, I might be tempted to think "wow, I have arrived. The opportunity to learn is gone. If we have a separate forum for critiquing, or if you must ask for critique, we then have that growth potential returned. I know that I will be using the change, should it happen, to learn how to master this craft. I am thin skinned to some degree, but putting myself in the "Line of fire", so to speak, would be an opportunity to learn something I didn't already know. It will bruise my ego a bit, but I am a craftsman, and that is a risk I am willing to take. I hate the phrase, "The end justifies the means", but in this case, it does, in my opinion. This function, or forum would not be to everyone's liking, but people don't have to read, this forum, nor post in it. I too have written some in my life and I and my best friend did this same type of thing for each other. It hurt and helped each of us grow.</b> Now, that said, please don't confuse this as a request to critique my writing skills. I am a bit rusty. If I just need an ego boost, then I'll just ask my wife's opinion (She is incredibly [:X] supportive).
 
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I think it might be easier to add a check box that invites critiqing as opposed to a separate forum? I might know what is wrong with my creation or know it is a work in progress and am happy with the results so far and dont need to hear whats wrong. I may just want to show it off so far.
Glenn
 
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