Need some advice.. this is making me crazy.

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TellicoTurning

TellicoTurning

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Sep 24, 2006
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Tellico Plains, Tennessee, USA.
I've read all the threads and tutorials on the CA finish and experimented with my technique and finally got great results.. however, the last 3 pens I have done, all were larger higher end pens, 2 - El Grande's and 1-El Presidente.

When I finish the blanks, my finish is flawless.. great depth of shine, smooth surface etc.. but when I assemble the pens, I'm getting separation of the finish at the ends where the components are pressed into the blanks... I've checked to make sure my finish is flush with the ends of the tube, nice clean ends, etc... but still get the flaking at the ends...

Any suggestions as to what I'm doing wrong.?? I haven't done pictures yet, so can't show what I'm talking about.

I finished a number of slimline caps for cartridge pens and a couple of barons with no problems, but these last 3 are making me crazy. I've refinished two of the pens twice now and am about to go back to the shop and refinish them again.
 
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I've not had that happen while pressing in the hardware but I have experienced that problem when cleaning up the ends BEFORE assembly. I use a 12" disc sander to clean the ends and it happens when I apply the CA too thick. The sander seems to grab the CA and pull it away from the wood. I use med. CA only, no BLO, and I now am VERY careful about how much undersize I make my barrels. When I over turned a piece and tried to make up the difference with CA is when I got into trouble. My limit now is .005" under. .002" or .003" under is perfect, FOR ME.:wink:
 
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I've had that happen when the finish is just a little bit longer than the blank. It only takes a tiny amount..

Before assembly, I use the barrel trimmer BY HAND ONLY and go very slow.. like scraping one tooth of the trimmer only.I roll the barrel around so I can watch it as it touches only one blade. You need to go slow so that you don't flake off the CA.

I have also taken the finished blank off the mandrel and turned it between the live center and a dead center so that I can trim the edge with a skew.. almost like you'd use a parting tol.

CA doesn't 'give' much under stress so when you're press fitting the parts, you could be pressing down on the CA and not the wood or the tube. And as you press, it has to go somewhere...

It can't go up, because I'm pressing from that direction
It can't go down, because it is supported by the wood.
It can't go into the wood itself
The only direction left is away from the wood .. so it de-laminates.

I'll bet if I watched it under magnification, I'd see it flex away from the wood before it 'pops off' ..


Long winded explanation .. and I have NO idea if this is the problem you're looking at.. just a suggestion from previous problems I've experienced..:biggrin:
 
Thanks for the responses... I tried the pen mill on some of my blanks... don't remember if I did on these pens or not... you know there are 3 ways to tell you're getting older.. first the memory goes --- I forget the other two ways...

I know the tubes were clean, because had to clean them to get the bushing inside.. really tight fit.

I think I'll try the nail file - probably an emery board since I know she has some of those.. not sure about the nail file.
 
ozmandus said:
I know the tubes were clean, because had to clean them to get the bushing inside.. really tight fit.
Click to expand...

You already gave us the answer! If the bushings were a "really tight fit" the components had to significantly expand the tube when pressed in. There is some tolerance in the ID of tubes. The next time you have a "really tight fit" use a wire gun barrel brush to ream the brass tube ever so slightly. Chamfer the edges (as described by others) and you shouldn't have this problem anymore.

As an aside, this happens more frequently with a CA finish than with lacquer due to the inflexibility and lack of shear strength of CA.
 
Another thing I have foudn when it comes to really tight fit for nibs etc. you can actually cause a burr on the brass tube when you mill the ends. using a reamer on the tubes before trying to press the parts will remove this burr. it will cause a really tight fit and expansion of the barrel. I have seen really good reamers offered here before but do not know where to get them. I know they are the sme thing that is used by ammo reloaders for trimmiming brass cartridges. A little pricey but the first time they save you a gent pen they have paid for themselves about three times over.
 
I agree with Daniel, especially if your trimmer is a little dull. My reamer works like a champ--a phillips screw driver. Just stick it at the end of the tube and don't use much pressure. Twist a few times.
Chuck. Could it be that when you remove the bushing away from the finished blank that it is cracking the CA that has been bonded between the blank & bushing? You could make a smaller bushing so the CA won't be applied to the bushing while finishing. This would be easier with larger style tubes. The blank could be proud of the bushing. Hope I make sense.
 
ozmandus said:
Thanks for the responses... I tried the pen mill on some of my blanks... don't remember if I did on these pens or not...
Click to expand...

Ah.. sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant using the pen mill (or the nail file would work, too) AFTER you turn and finish. If the CA extends beyond the length of the wood or the tube, it will separate when you try to press fit the parts.
So you use the mill, or a file, or a razor blade, knife .. whatever .. to remove any excess glue on the length.
If you've ever glued over the bushings, you know the excess I'm referring to.
Just a little too long on the blank and it can pop off (or turn white/opaque) when you assemble the pen.
 
Lee Thomas aka Firefyter-emt sells a Sander-Mill which I use to finish the square up process. For me, this is much more reliable than taking a chance of a blade catching something or creating a minor nick.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=35546&highlight=Thomas

I used to have separation on oily woods when I used a mandrel. Because using a mandrel requires bushings to finish, the CA would naturally stick to the bushings (referring to the outside, not the inside). Often times when I separated the bushing from the blank, especially the oily blanks, it would have a tendency to create a separation.

It would not always show up at first, but when assembling the pen or even later. I have not had that problem since I went to the mandrel-less method and started using Lee's sander mill. I got the mill about the same time I started the mandrel-less method, so I don't know which one helped the most.

ONe other thing I do is as Lou suggested. I use a stiff wire brush similar to gun barrel cleaning brush and make sure the inside is clean. I also create a small chamfer on the inside of the tube.
 
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I use a strip of 400 grit sandpaper on the lathe bed to gently sand the ends after turning and finishing. I used to trim the excess finish off with a utility knife, but the sandpaper is an improvement - less chance for catching and cutting too far. I chamfer with the utility knife and ream with a round file.

I feel your pain on this one. It is beyond frustrating to create something beautiful and have the absolute last step ruin all the previous work.
 
I grease the inside of my tubes before glue into the blank, makes it easy to clean out the dried glue and a little help with the assembly, hope this helps..
 
Thanks guys for all the good suggestion.. definitely will take them with me the shop to try and salvage these pens... I took the pens out Saturday, but since I was so disgusted with my results, I decided to wait until I got in a better mood to work on them... and since the Titans played yesterday, didn't work in the shop at all.

Charlie,
I understood what you meant about using the pen mill... I had already done that on some other sets, just didn't remember if I did on these particular two pens.. suspect not.

Lou,
I don't own a wire gun barrel brush... guess a trip to Gander Mountain is in the future..... OH Darn!!

Daniel/Mobilman...
I use a reamer on most of my tubes if and usually when I face them and create the inside burr.. I keep an old screwdriver with a sharpened edge handy just for reaming my burrs... a couple of light turns usually clears the burr and lets the bushing seat easily, but a couple of new bushings I got lately - they are "b" mandrel bushings do seem to fit tighter than normal.. also the tolerance in the bushing makes them really tight on the "b" mandrel as well, but way too sloppy to use on an "a" mandrel.
 
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OLDMAN5050 said:
I grease the inside of my tubes before glue into the blank, makes it easy to clean out the dried glue and a little help with the assembly, hope this helps..
Click to expand...

What do you use for grease? I sometimes will block the ends of the tubes with candle wax, but haven't tried any kind of grease... and wouldn't the grease tend to make the components slip?
Just a thought.
 
One thing to remember is; This is a new problem. There's no need to totally reinvent the way you've been doing things. Just solve whatever change has occurred to cause the prob.

You go adding grease and stuff to your routine and all you're doing is adding something else that could possibly cause a problem, meanwhile you haven't isolated the root of your troubles.

Tear down one of those pens, refinish it again, make sure to use the pen mill on all 4 ends. Make sure that it's perpendicular and not concave causing the CA to hit before the brass does. You want them both to hit at the same time or the CA will become compacted and crack.

If that doesn't solve your problem, move on to the next solution. You'll figure it out without adding to the recipe.
 
Yeah man, it's probably something as simple as that. I know I always overthink things... unless it's important in which I skip thinking all together.
 
Chuck, the grease would stop CA from sticking to the tubes, but you also would run the risk of grease getting into the end grain on your barrel, then you might have another problem getting CA to stick to the wood.
I cheat I use a 3M Scotchbrite excel wheel it's the equivalent of about 600 grit but soft to clean the extra CA foo my blanks, I do coat my bushings with Renwax, but I use acetal cone centers to finish every thing but slimlines.
 
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