Need help with my shop (Electrical)

[Daniel]

Heres the scoop. my house has a fuse box, yep old house.
as fuse boxes go they seem to have been built custom for each house and never have room to expand.
in order to get electrical to my shop I have to decide how I will tie into this box.
the shop will have 4-15 amp curcuits and one 220
so far I have thought of.
1. simply running 10 ga wire from one of the 220 fuses already in the box to my shop. this woudl give me a 30 amp 220 to my shop that could then be connected to a breaker box.
2. installing a sub panel at the house with 0/2 wire directly to the mains making allowing me to run a 100 amp curcuit to the shop. this would require running whatever size wire is needed to the shop through a 1 inch conduit for about 50 feet. not sure how large a whire will fit in that. but I'm thinking at least two 0/2 wires and a ground wire. not sure it can be done.

I can make the connections, where I lack knowledge is in design.
as in what can I do and what I shouldn't do. what size wires are needed etc. I don't really like the idea of tying into an existing 220 curcuit as they are generally ment to service only one appliance etc. not sure how running a parallel curcuit effects that.
I don't like the idea of having only 30 amps for my whole shop either actually I don't know if that is enough or not. I have ran my entire shop from a 20 amp before but that was out of having nothing else.
I prefer to do the sub panel thing but am not sure I could get the heavy wire through the conduit. I don't mind having to work hard at it but is it even possible?
my last resort is to actually have the power company run a feed to the shop.
any and all suggestons are welcome. but please remember I need the design specs. like wire sizes and exactly where to connect them. I do a lot of rewiring and repairing itc. but this is all stuff that has already had all the thinking done for me. designing I have found out is a whole other animal.

 

[turff49]

I'd run direct bury #6 wire from the main to a subpanel at the shop. Just make sure you have a certified electrician do the actual hookup at the main. Insurance companies tend to frown if something burns and it was wired by a amatuer. You can do everything but the actual connection though. If you have to run wire through conduit I'd use 2" elctrical PVC. Direct bury is the way to go though.
Brian

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

Echo Brian, Had direct burial to my back yard shop and an electrician did the final hook up at the house and installed the sub panel

 

[Daniel]

O.K. I went out and took a look like I was really going to stick my hands in there. somehow that helps me think clearer.
in order to simplify things I took a couple of pictures. the problem has gotten a lot simpler now just a couple more questions though.
here is a pic of the fuse box itself.

take particular note of the area labled main tie in.
not having really noticed this before it now makes most of my questions above mute as I am obviuosly provided a means to make whatever connection I need to.
here is a close up of those lugs.

notice the second set of connections next to the ones that already have wires in them.
this allows me to run a 100 amp curcuit to what ever I need to.
my questions now are.
what do I run it to next?
1. directly to the shop breaker box?
2. to a sub panel at the house that will then run to the shop breaker box?

the wire will be much larger than even #6 to do this either way but I am not sure what size wire I need.
here is what I do know.
a 15 amp curcuit needs #14, a 20 amp curcuit needs #12 and a 30 amp curcuit needs #10 after that I am not sure.
as a rule of thumb I would say stay with what is already in the box. as in those really big ones already connected to the mains. I simply don't know what size they are by looking at them. I can easily recognize the smaller sizes on sight but don't spend a lot of time playing with these fat boys.
as for connection. pulling the main fuse allows me to safely connect to these lugs, I do have a couple of real electricians that will give it all a final O.K. though as I am very awaire that I don't know what I don't know. and all of this is going just beyond what I have done many times in the past. once i have power to a breaker box in the shop I am good again.
thanks for the comments so far and I hope the visual helps.

 

[jeff]

Daniel - I'd reconsider having the power company install a 100A drop to the shop. I don't see any down side to this. So much cleaner than an underground feed from the house. Your responsibility would be the mast and weatherhead upstream of the meter base (which they supply), then from the meter to the new panel in the shop.

 

[Daniel]

Jeff,
I am seriously considering that idea. the only down side I see to it is I will know exactly what it cost me to run my shop[]
I figure the savings in wire etc fromthe house would be about the same as the mast and weatherhead so there woudl be little if any cost difference and it keeps my house from being involved with my shop in any way. (Insurance factor).

 

[godfreytoddanderson]

Daniel,

I see a neutral bus and what looks like a ground wire tying it to ground. Not sure what that black wire is that connects to the top of the neutral bus next to the white neutral from the main. That looks a bit odd.

I don't see a ground bus. I'm assuming that your house is old enough that it does not have ground wires (third prong on outlets)? You will obviously need to address this in your shop. I'm sure you must have considered this but I didn't hear anything about that above and wanted to make sure you are planning on it.

Todd

 

[rtparso]

I will kick in on this one. I am not an electrician; I have performed and directed electrical work off and on for 20+ years both at work and at home.
If you use the 100 amp "main tie in" (fuse holder I believe) you need to check your meter size and the amperage draw of the house (looks like it might be at the limits). This needs to be done by someone who does this a lot. Sizing your service properly is partly an art (I always over size no art involved). IMO the easy way is to upgrade the meter to 200 amps (assuming the existing is 100A) and install a box in or on the house and split off what you want for the shop and then you have amps for expansion in the house. I hate to mess with old work and like to install additional boxes. I have known some good electricians that would replace your old box using the old wiring but I have had insulation crack and ended up opening up the wall and replacing wiring. In the end take your ideas to a friendly electrician buy him some of his favorite beverage and listen to his advice.
edit I also like Jeffs idea. Touching old wiring always makes me nervous.

 

[turff49]

After seeing what you've got to work with I think I'd go with the power company putting in a seperate line to the shop. Don't think I'd want to have problems down the line. At some point I think I'd switch what you have there also. Looks like a disaster waiting to happen. Do you blow a lot of fuses in the house?
Brian

 

[Fangar]

Direct drop from the power company. While they are at it, I would pay the coin to have them put in a modern panel at the house. That thing screems for issues with modern day appliances.

I ran 4 strands of #6 wire in a 1" PVC conduit for my spa myself. The 4 starnds at 1" was a bear to pull, but I was able to do it. I would go 1.5" - 2" if possible. Also, be sure to check code for line depth. It is a full 18" deep here in CA, unless covered with concrete.

Fangar

 

[ashaw]

Iam with Fangar. New panel. We began last year to remodel our house. 100A box in good condition. Wiring in the house was knob and tube and only two main circuts. I had to replace all of the wiring and I distributed the engery need for each circut. With todays electrical devices you really need to upgrade.

 

[vick]

I vote drop a new line to a subpanel in your shop as well. I had a subpanel sub put in my garage and then ran all my wireing useing EMT from their.
To address you wanting to piggy back on an existing 220 circuit the ones you have will probably be used for you air conditioner and oven and so I would guess you will blow alot of fuses since those devices are so often used.

 

[JimQ]

That is because you will definitly be overloading the fuses.

If you are going to be running your own wire to the shop, you would need a sub panel at the main box, since there is insufficient room in the main box. You can branch from the main pull fuse, but you will still need to provide a <b>seperate breaker</b> for the wire going to the shop sub panel.

When I did a sub panel in my garage/shop, it was recommended that I put in a 65 amp sub panel if I wanted access to 110 & 220. With what looks like a 100 amp max main, and possibly lower, you do not have enough available current to put in a usable sub panel. You would end up blowing the main!

It looks like the main panel already fails to meet current code. You have an open hole in the top, and wires passing through unflanged holes in the back of the box. In many areas, any large changes to electrical work requires that all work <b>upline</b> meet code. That would mean the main box, meter, and drop line.

First step is to contact one or more electrians and discuss your wants and needs. You may find that the "cheap" route of adding to existing service isn't so cheap, and it may be much less expensive to to take the "expensive" route of a seperate drop. Of course after talking to the electrician, you may find that you want to go to the expense of bringing your main box up to code for your own piece of mind.

JimQ

 

[Daniel]

Todd, that black wire connected to the Neutral bar is actually the neutral wire for the dryer. I had to rewire that plug at the dryer end during the remodel all three wires are black like that. real fun. and yes my house is 50 years old.
seems like the drop is getting the vote here today.
this is what else I learned today. now this is from the fella at Home Depot so take it for what it is worth.
Brian was not as far off as I was thinking he was this morning. it will require #4 wire, shock shock to me. still a tough pull if it can be pulled at all through a 1" conduit.
It will be a $200 mistake if I can't get it in.
the guy looked that part up in the code book at least. it was his opinion that I could get three #6s through that 1" pipe but it would be on a prayer and lots of soap.
to put in larger conduit requires I tear up part of my new patio. only as a last resort.
as far as the box I have handeling the load my house puts on it. there have been no problems so far. not much has changed for it since it was put in originally. I do have plans to upgrade but that is a project for anouther day and anouther budget. until then I need power to my shop.
I will have to do some more homework and see what is involved in getting a drop installed. most of the wiring is already in the shop, I will have to get a service panel and have it all wired I am sure but that will not be a problem. I know it will all have to pass there O.K. etc. and I will have to add the mast and weatherhead. I will have to relocate where I wanted the fuse box as well but that is not all that big a deal. it was going to be right inside the front door but I will move it to the back corner if there is a meter and all involved.
with the wire alone from the house to the shop being $200 I'm starting to think a drop would end up being a lower cost route as well.

thanks for all the input I'm at least making some headway in my decision making process. I have a few weeks to work it out. I don't have any money until then.

 

[Daniel]

P.S. Todd,
as for grounding my shop. It is my intention at this time to drive a ground rod at the shop and ground the shop electrical accordingly. you are correct that my house does not have ground wires. there is a ground wire on that neutral bar and to my thinking that is weird, I don't know enough about electrical to know all the stuff they used to do but that seems wrong to my way of thinking but it came that way so I'm leaving it that way.

 

[Daniel]

Jim,
You bring up a whole other line of questions. the first being is there enough here to even add the shop to it?
taking it one step at a time and assuming I can get away with a 65 amp sub panel. this would allow me to use #6 wire as Brian mentioned above. this also makes the three wire pull through 1" conduit more likely, solving a couple of problems.
the above raises a question of it's own. how much amperage is enough to run a shop? I will have 4 15 amp cuircuits. one to the lights.(4-4 lamp florescent fixtures). the other three will power outlets around the shop that will be used one at a time as I operate various equipment. there will also be one 220 curcuit to my dust collector. eventually I very well could end up with need of more 220 curcuits for table saw or other upgrades to my equipment.
right now I am thinking 30 amp min. my whole house is only 100 amp although I know it should be 200 for todays demands. are 100 amps to a shop overkill?

 

[JimQ]

Your breaker panel must be within a given distance of the meter, but check your local code for that distance. I know of panels more than 50 feet from the meter.

JimQ

 

[Daniel]

Jim,
forgot to mention this in the last post. the unplugged holes in the box are from where I removed conduit from the outside of the house while residing it. the wires from that conduit now run through the walls. I still have to get the right plugs for the holes. my wife tried to pick them up for me but ended up with the wrong ones. one of those pesky little details I'm not good at taking care of.

 

[Fangar]

I was able to run 4 strands of #6 through 1" PVC. It was a ton of work at that (lot's of lube), and I only had 4 corners. Three would be easier. Man I would save my pennies and redo that box at the house. It scares me.

Fangar

 

[turff49]

Daniel,
How many items are you likely to be running at one time. My 220 to the shop comes off the breaker box feed to my Cntral Air unit. Still haven't had any problems. My 110 runs off a seperate 20 amp line.You will probably only have the dust collector and one other item under load at one time. 65 amps should be plenty.
Brian

 

[Daniel]

Brian,
this would be a standard situation in my shop.
All 4 florescent fixtures going, the dust collector, one outlet running a lathe, saw or other piece fo equipment, and usually a work light (desk lamp type thing).
so basically 4 things running at any one time. two of those being lights, one being on a 220 which reduces it's amp demand.

Fangar,
the box will be upgraded just not at this time. it is on the list as the next project on fixing up our house but may not be till the end of the year till it can be done. need to sell pens, lots of pens, then I have to clone anouther me to get it done. I wanted to do it when we resided the house but couldn't get it fit in.

Jim, you are right about the "Breaker Panel", it has to be within 6 feet of the meter. I am using the term breaker panel for anything that holds a breaker. there are other boxes that are installed inside the building, I can't recall there actual name right now, I'm thinking service panel but not sure. They do not have the same requirment in regard to the meter. bottom line whichever route I go has a specific list of parts I have to get. an example. to have a line dropped to the shop would require I get a $100 breaker box that holds the meter and all. to run wire from my house requires I buy a $25 "service" or whatever box. but has more involved at the house end. even the wire sizes I need change.

Right now I am in no way settling for any one method. I am figuring out what all the options would require, the pros and cons of each. and compairing to my ability to install it. one thing I am very good at. I know when I have the info I need. more importantly, I know when I don't. right now I don't know enough so I'm still looking.
either way I will be changing the box on the house eventually. wether it feeds my shop or not. it gives me the willies as well.

there is one other big neg to the extra drop idea, from what I have found out so far it creates anouthe power bill for me. SSPCO charges a min of somethign like $65 per month just for the service, wether I use my shop or not. I have to still track down that info to see if it is accurate.

 

[Gary Max]

I went with a seperate meter to my shop---the largest bill I have ever got was about $40.00 most of the time it is under $20.00. I have all the power that I will ever need now and in the future---this is something eles to think about.

 

[Randy_]

Do research the issue of a second meter carefully. There was a similar discussion on SMC recently and it was reported that some electric companies will only make one residential drop to a property. Any others are considered business use and are billed at a different(...higher...) rate.

May not be pretty; but sometimes you do what you have to do. If you can't get the requisite conductors in your conduit. you may want to thing about going overhead from the house to the shop??

And finally, I'm in agreement with those who suggest that your current panel may be undersized and in need of upgrading before you add more load in your shop.

 

[penhead]

Just to add a couple more pennies worth of thought here, but I just finished building my shop not to long ago, and electrical was quite an education. Ended up just going to a registered master electrician (he is the one who has to get the permit and connections anyway). He put together a great plan, even one I could understand, and was completely comfortable with, and it turned out less expensive than what I was trying to put together myself.

My first thought was to seperate house and shop panels. That required new meter, etc, etc. And the power co was going to charge me for their installation, including meter, wiring, labor. Came to almost $1000 and there was also a monthly min charge for power if I didn't use any power at all.

One thing that did come out of this was that I inventoried every power tool I had. That included make, model, serial number, picture, (and power/amp consumption). Once I had all that info, it was easy to figure out how many amps I would _ever_ have need for, not to mention I have a listing of what I have should I ever have to replace it....down side is wife knows how much I have spent [:I]

And just my opinion, but like others have said, I would upgrade that panel box at the house side before running any kind of subpanel off of it.

 

[Daniel]

I came up with anouther question this morning.
I pulled the main fuse to try and figure out just what size my service is. the pull box has two 100 amp fuses in it. is this a 100 or 200 amp service? I know it would be 200 volt if that was what I was dealing with. but it has been over 20 years since I have had to do any math concerning amps.
I need the info to go do my homework on buying a new breaker panel for the house. do I hear a hoorah from any of you!!!?
It may set things back a month or more but I am coming around to thinking I might as well do it all at once and avoid the ulcers from worrying about my house.
I'm thinking it will be the difference between $300 and $500 to do the whole thing. Why start pinching pennies now?

 

[huntersilver]

Hi Daniel,
I just upgraded my shop and had to put a whole new panel in. I kept
flipping the breakers and overloading the switch before. I feel you pain.
I had an electrical company come in and install the new panel and overhead boxes.

Good luck with everything.

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by Daniel
<br />.....there is a ground wire on that neutral bar.....that seems wrong to my way of thinking but it came that way so I'm leaving it that way.

Good decision!! It is correct for the neutral to be grounded at the main box.

 

[rtparso]

That is 100A service. The more I think about it I would go to a 200A meter and put a small (60A main box) off the meter and run the power to a subpanel in the shop. This was ok with my local building inspector and a electriction friend. As several have said don't touch the old panel until you are ready to rewire the house.

<br />

 

[Daniel]

Thanks for the Schematic. didn't even know that one could be done. I already decided to drop down to a 60 amp to the shop after going back and looking at the shop my nephew has. his is a 50 amp.
It will take less work to actually install than getting it figured out[]