My On/Off Switch Shite The Bed

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Mortalis

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Yes, I own a Delta 46-460 Type I lathe. Yes, my On/Off switch gave up the ghost, today. I just finished changing the spindle bearings and replaced the drive belt and when I started finishing a bowl project the lathe just stopped. I fiddled with the lever and found the lathe would turn back on and then just turn off, fiddle some more and it would run for a bit more and then just shut off.

I commenced to disassemble the control box and was hesitant to take all the wires and stuff off their respective posts but it would be the only way I could get to the On/Off switch itself. After about an hour debating with myself if I should get this involved or just pull the switch and upgrade to a new larger lathe. I convinced myself that I had nothing to lose so I tore into it. A few pictures later, disconnect a few wires and then a few more pictures and wires disconnected I removed the reversing switch. I then proceeded on to the afore mentioned nemesis. I tried to be calm and collected but once the pry bar implement slipped and I ended up scraping the skin off the length of my thumb I'd had enough being a nice guy. I did overcome the holding mechanism on the switch body, to its own demise but I did prevail.

After I disassembled the switch itself I came to find out it is a simple double pole single throw rocker switch. I went online to eReplacementParts and ordered the type II switch as it has the same number of poles and the body looks very similar if not identical to the body of the Type I

Now the juicy stuff.
The switch is a "defond" ART
20A 125-277VAC
2HP 250VAC
1HP 125VAC
0910B

Reference the pictures.
The two 'legs' in the assembly picture rock as the red activator is moved
The rocking of the legs moves the contacts inside the body to make contact similar to how the points on an older model car engine work, see the inside the body picture.
Note all the wear on the two legs in the assembly picture. They have been made shorter over the years of rocking and no longer are able to move the contacts enough to activate the switch.

My guess would be that any double pole single throw switch with the 1HP 125V rating would work. Most that I have look at on line have a very similar switch body and would imagine would be able to mount in the existing opening of the control box.

That's my story.

Kevin
 

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jrista

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My guess would be that any double pole single throw switch with the 1HP 125V rating would work. Most that I have look at on line have a very similar switch body and would imagine would be able to mount in the existing opening of the control box.
Always a bummer when a part fails in the middle of a job!

I would make sure you meet the amperage requirement, more than the horsepower requirement. If the switch you buy cannot handle the amperage, its going to fry again. During spinup, you'll usually draw more amps than when you reach and sustain the desired speed, so even if the lathe is rates for RMS amps lower than the switch rating, you usually still want to make sure the switch can handle the peak loads.
 

jttheclockman

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Actually both HP and amperage are important when matching a switch but both are usually within range of what is allowed with said switch. I say this because many manufacturers rate their motors differently when they talk HP.
 

Mortalis

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I would make sure you meet the amperage requirement, more than the horsepower requirement.
Actually both HP and amperage are important when matching a switch but both are usually within range of what is allowed with said switch. I say this because many manufacturers rate their motors differently when they talk HP.

I would have to check but i think i replaced my bad switch with a delta drill press switch. Looks dreadful BUT it works.

You see.....this is why I keep you guys around. ;)
Thanks for the info. I'm not an electrically talented guy. I'm more process and mechanically inclined. I can tear things apart and put them back together but knowing which color wire goes where and why is beyond my comprehension.
See pics for my Wire ID method. Hey, it's what I had at the moment. :rolleyes:
 

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Mortalis

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Looks like this is the current version. Maybe you can get a sample, would be worth a shot.

Thanks,
That's cool that you found that. I tried to search for defond but didnt get a lot. I'll definitely work with that if the Type II that I ordered doesnt work.
 

jrista

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Actually both HP and amperage are important when matching a switch but both are usually within range of what is allowed with said switch. I say this because many manufacturers rate their motors differently when they talk HP.
It would be extremely odd for the amperage of a switch to be rated too low for the HP of the motor. Assuming 115V AC, a 20A switch would be able to handle 2300W of power. The rough conversion ratio of watts to horsepower is 746W/HP, which would mean a 20A switch should be sufficient for a 3HP motor.
 

jttheclockman

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Jon, a lot more goes into calculating motor loads and amperage. Different amperage for DC and AC. This is why they display both values. Yes it would be odd but again both are important. That Ohm's Law you are quoting is a resistive load. Remember a motor is an inductive load. Power factor and efficiency of motor need to be calculated. If Op motor name plate matches switch he is good to go if it fits the enclosure. That is all he needs to make sure.
 
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jrista

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Jon, a lot more goes into calculating motor loads and amperage. Different amperage for DC and AC. This is why they display both values. Yes it would be odd but again both are important. That Ohm's Law you are quoting is a resistive load. Remember a motor is an inductive load. Power factor and efficiency of motor need to be calculated. If Op motor name plate matches switch he is good to go if it fits the enclosure. That is all he needs to make sure.
It doesn't change much for an inductive load, which involves an efficiency factor (and this would be single phase, three phase is a bit more complex, but I would be very surprised if the lathe in question was three phase power). By my calculation, a 20A switch on 115V AC power with a ~90% efficiency motor would support around 2.8HP. For 120V AC like I have, it would be 2.9HP. So, close to the 3HP I mentioned earlier...I just didn't factor in an efficiency rating. If the motor has degraded significantly in efficiency, then the motor would draw more power. Still, at 65% motor efficiency, a 20A switch would be able to power a 2HP motor. The switch itself is capable of handling its specified load, it's not that the load the switch can handle changes...its that an inefficient motor draws more power. If the motor efficiency is that low, though, its probably worth replacing that as well, as its just drawing more power than necessary, which costs you extra every time you use it... 🤷‍♂️

Regardless, the switch should always be rated well above the HP rating of the motor that is being powered. It would be exceptionally odd if the manufacturer (and we are talking Delta here, so even more odd!) used a switch with an amperage rating that couldn't handle the motor load (specifically the startup load, which will draw more power) of the motor they used. In this case, the switch can handle ~3x the load of the motor when running normally, which should be sufficient for startup load. Further, a bran new 20A switch should be able to handle several times that many amps for a short period of time as well, which is sufficient to handle spikes during startup load.

If you get a switch rated for the same amperage as the original, then you should be able to handle the horsepower load of the motor. Switches also generally are not rated in horsepower...they are rated in amps, to operate within a specified voltage range (i.e. 125-250-277 or something like that). You shouldn't have to think too hard here, nor overcomplicate things...replace the switch with one with at least the same power rating (Amps), and the OP shouldn't have problems.
 

monophoto

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Jon, a lot more goes into calculating motor loads and amperage. Different amperage for DC and AC. This is why they display both values. Yes it would be odd but again both are important. That Ohm's Law you are quoting is a resistive load. Remember a motor is an inductive load. Power factor and efficiency of motor need to be calculated. If Op motor name plate matches switch he is good to go if it fits the enclosure. That is all he needs to make sure.
And let me add to John's comment - AC motor power factor and efficiency both vary with loading and the design of the motor, so there is no single number that can be applied. Both power factor and efficiency tend to increase with increases in motor horsepower. In general, for 115v single phase motors, one 'rule of thumb' is 14 amperes full load per horsepower. Note that this is a ratio, and applies to a range of motors including motors less than 1 HP (so-called 'fractional HP motors' which have notoriously low efficiencies and power factors).

Motors are generally rated in terms of the mechanical power they can deliver to a load, so an AC motor rated 1 hp delivers about 746 watts of power (mechanical). Considering efficiency and power factor, that motor might draw a bit more than 10 amperes from the electrical supply. Under the National Electrical Code, a circuit rated 15 amperes can only carry 12 amperes continuously, which means that a 115v 15 ampere circuit can't support an AC motor larger than 1 HP.

OP Kevin was concerned about a Delta 46-460 lathe which has a 1HP DC motor. That motor delivers 746 watts mechanical, at at 80% efficiency, that translates to a full load input current of around 8 amperes. The specifications for the original switch don't cite DC ratings, but my expectation is that the DC current rating would be less than the 20 ampere AC rating. The reason for that is that when switching AC, a switch can take advantage of the natural 'zero crossing' that takes place twice per cycle. In a DC application, the switch must instead extinguish an arc to force the current to zero. That means that switching DC is more challenging than switching AC. We don't know whether the 20 ampere rating is based on continuous current (thermal) considerations or switching, but in my experience the DC rating of switches is generally lower than the AC rating because of the challenges involved in switching DC.

Also, when designing an application, you NEVER design at the maximum. You always leave margin for things that you can't account for. The fact that a switch is rated for 20amperes doesn't mean that it can/should be used in an application where the current will be 20 amperes. In this instance, I suspect the manufacturer of the switch designed his product line in standard increments, and then the manufacturer of the lathe chose the smallest (ie, cheapest) switch that would handle the rated load of the machine.
 

jttheclockman

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Wow I did not want to go down this alley but Louie did add alot to the thought. As I said there is alot more that goes into designing and choosing switches for motors. Not the same as a light switch. I am retired 8 years now and do not want to wake up those part of the brains again.:D I believe the OP has what he needs. Good luck.
 

jrista

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And let me add to John's comment - AC motor power factor and efficiency both vary with loading and the design of the motor, so there is no single number that can be applied. Both power factor and efficiency tend to increase with increases in motor horsepower. In general, for 115v single phase motors, one 'rule of thumb' is 14 amperes full load per horsepower. Note that this is a ratio, and applies to a range of motors including motors less than 1 HP (so-called 'fractional HP motors' which have notoriously low efficiencies and power factors).

Motors are generally rated in terms of the mechanical power they can deliver to a load, so an AC motor rated 1 hp delivers about 746 watts of power (mechanical). Considering efficiency and power factor, that motor might draw a bit more than 10 amperes from the electrical supply. Under the National Electrical Code, a circuit rated 15 amperes can only carry 12 amperes continuously, which means that a 115v 15 ampere circuit can't support an AC motor larger than 1 HP.

OP Kevin was concerned about a Delta 46-460 lathe which has a 1HP DC motor. That motor delivers 746 watts mechanical, at at 80% efficiency, that translates to a full load input current of around 8 amperes. The specifications for the original switch don't cite DC ratings, but my expectation is that the DC current rating would be less than the 20 ampere AC rating. The reason for that is that when switching AC, a switch can take advantage of the natural 'zero crossing' that takes place twice per cycle. In a DC application, the switch must instead extinguish an arc to force the current to zero. That means that switching DC is more challenging than switching AC. We don't know whether the 20 ampere rating is based on continuous current (thermal) considerations or switching, but in my experience the DC rating of switches is generally lower than the AC rating because of the challenges involved in switching DC.

Also, when designing an application, you NEVER design at the maximum. You always leave margin for things that you can't account for. The fact that a switch is rated for 20amperes doesn't mean that it can/should be used in an application where the current will be 20 amperes. In this instance, I suspect the manufacturer of the switch designed his product line in standard increments, and then the manufacturer of the lathe chose the smallest (ie, cheapest) switch that would handle the rated load of the machine.
Ok, you make some good points. The point about a 15A circuit not being able to continuously deliver more than about 12A is understood. I guess that would extend to a 20A circuit not necessarily being able to deliver 20A continuously either... You also note that the motor is a DC motor, and if it is being directly powered by DC, that would indeed change things. DC ratings are usually lower than the AC rating for any given switch in my experience. I'm much more familiar with AC power. I am curious, though...the switch itself is probably handling AC power. There would then most likely be a power board or main control board or something where the AC power is converted into DC power... I can't imagine that the lathe is drawing DC power directly. So the switch shouldn't be handling DC power, it should be handling AC power (regardless of whether the motor is DC or not) and as you stated...AC has that natural zero point... Again, I think we could radically overcomplicate things here, without needing to.

I had calculated the amperage required to run the motor at ~7.3, but I was assuming a higher efficiency rating (power factor...that would only play a role with multi-phase power AFAIK?) You mentioned 8 amps at 80% efficiency, and if I run the numbers myself I get ~8.1 amps @ 80%.

I agree with you that you that you shouldn't design at the maximum. That was the point of my prior post, that if the manufacturer chose a 20A switch, a 20A switch with the same voltage ratings should be able to handle more than the required load of the motor, as a bit of a "buffer." Motors tend to draw more power as they are spinning up, can feed back noise (arcs, spikes in power), etc. So the switch would have to be rated high enough to handle all of that "real world" behavior. Even with all of this...most of that should be "encapsulated" within the lathe...the lathe should be converting AC power to DC power if its necessary, and that should generally be buffered from the external AC circuit. So the switch really shouldn't have to be concerned with all of that...no?
 

monophoto

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Ok, you make some good points. The point about a 15A circuit not being able to continuously deliver more than about 12A is understood. I guess that would extend to a 20A circuit not necessarily being able to deliver 20A continuously either... You also note that the motor is a DC motor, and if it is being directly powered by DC, that would indeed change things. DC ratings are usually lower than the AC rating for any given switch in my experience. I'm much more familiar with AC power. I am curious, though...the switch itself is probably handling AC power. There would then most likely be a power board or main control board or something where the AC power is converted into DC power... I can't imagine that the lathe is drawing DC power directly. So the switch shouldn't be handling DC power, it should be handling AC power (regardless of whether the motor is DC or not) and as you stated...AC has that natural zero point... Again, I think we could radically overcomplicate things here, without needing to.

I had calculated the amperage required to run the motor at ~7.3, but I was assuming a higher efficiency rating (power factor...that would only play a role with multi-phase power AFAIK?) You mentioned 8 amps at 80% efficiency, and if I run the numbers myself I get ~8.1 amps @ 80%.

I agree with you that you that you shouldn't design at the maximum. That was the point of my prior post, that if the manufacturer chose a 20A switch, a 20A switch with the same voltage ratings should be able to handle more than the required load of the motor, as a bit of a "buffer." Motors tend to draw more power as they are spinning up, can feed back noise (arcs, spikes in power), etc. So the switch would have to be rated high enough to handle all of that "real world" behavior. Even with all of this...most of that should be "encapsulated" within the lathe...the lathe should be converting AC power to DC power if its necessary, and that should generally be buffered from the external AC circuit. So the switch really shouldn't have to be concerned with all of that...no?
I suspect that you are correct that the switch is actually on the AC side of the power converter, and therefore is switching AC. It doesn't absolutely have to be that way, but that approach would make the most sense.

Power factor is a factor (pun not intended) in every AC circuit. Whether the circuit it single phase or three phase is irrelevant. Power factor is simply a function of the angular deviation between current and voltage, and is therefore a characteristic of every inductive AC circuit.

It is true that the switch would have be able to handle the worst-case switching conditions in this application. But my point is that the switch wasn't designed for this application, but rather was an off-the-shelf component whose ratings happened to meet the requirements of the application. Therefore, one cannot infer anything about the specifics of the application from the specification for the switch.
 

monophoto

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We are probably beating a dead horse here, but let me make one final point. This entire discussion has started with the horsepower rating of the motor, from which we have tried to infer what the ratings of various other components in the system should be. That's fine - - - except:

The fact is that horsepower ratings are subject to potential manipulation and misrepresentation. There are some hard, standards-based definitions of how motor power ratings should ideally be defined, but that doesn't keep manufacturers from playing games with alternative definitions. The objective appears to be that claiming a higher rating can be justification for a higher price, or can be used to argue that Brand X is better than Brand Y, etc. - you know, typical marketing BS. This situation isn't limited to the lathe market. It started in the high-fi sound business where manufacturers started rating amplifiers in terms of 'peak power' rather than use the agreed-upon nominal power ratings that traditionally had been used in that industry. Then it migrated into the outdoor power equipment business - and today, lawn mowers, snow blowers and similar tools are now rated in terms of engine displacement because consumers simply can't believe manufacturer' claims about engine horsepower.

The original question here related to the power switch on the Delta 46-460 lathe. Ultimately, we have to look at that lathe, or any lathe for that matter, as an entity, and purchasing a specific machine is implicit indication of trust that the manufacturer has done a competent job of selecting components with compatible ratings. If a component subsequently fails, the ideal solution would be to source an exact replacement from the manufacturer. But if that isn't possible (and a known problem with Delta lathes is that as ownership of the brand has migrated through several companies, the replacement part supply chain has become questionable), and if it isn't possible to do a series of measurements to determine the actual duty the component will be subjected to, then the safe approach is to pick a replacement component with component ratings that equal or exceed the ratings of the component being replaced. If we don't have access to the original manufacturer's actual design data, and if we can't measure the actual in-service duty imposed on the component, we don't really know if a lower-rated, lower-cost component can satisfactorily be substituted. I know that as a retired and somewhat cynical electrical engineer, I would be very hesitant about reverse engineering a lathe based on its nominal motor rating to justify replacing a component with something having a lower rating that the original component.

Of course, the other consideration relates to how the replacement can be incorporated into the original machine. That probably is not a problem if an OEM replacement component is used, but if something else must be chosen, then it may well be necessary to be creative in choosing how to mount the replacement.
 
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jrista

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But if that isn't possible (...), and if it isn't possible to do a series of measurements to determine the actual duty the component will be subjected to, then the safe approach is to pick a replacement component with component ratings that equal or exceed the ratings of the component being replaced. If we don't have access to the original manufacturer's actual design data, and if we can't measure the actual in-service duty imposed on the component, we don't really know if a lower-rated, lower-cost component can satisfactorily be substituted. I know that as a retired and somewhat cynical electrical engineer, I would be very hesitant about reverse engineering a lathe based on its nominal motor rating to justify replacing a component with something having a lower rating that the original component.
So maybe it was misunderstood...but, this is what I was saying in my original post. The original switch was 20A, 125-277VAC. As long as the new switch is the same (or better), then there shouldn't be any problem.

I was never recommending that the OP use a LESSER part!! Just to be clear on that...

There is little chance that the motor is directly powered by DC...just wouldn't make sense, as the standard outlet in most homes is AC power. That would mean that the AC power is transformed into DC power internally, which provides some buffering between the AC source and the DC load, so that ripple and noise on either side is going to be handled by a bunch of capacitors and magnetic fields. I'm honestly a little surprised my post became controversial...I was recommending that as long as the new switch is rated at least the same as the old, then it should be fine.
 

jttheclockman

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So maybe it was misunderstood...but, this is what I was saying in my original post. The original switch was 20A, 125-277VAC. As long as the new switch is the same (or better), then there shouldn't be any problem.

I was never recommending that the OP use a LESSER part!! Just to be clear on that...

There is little chance that the motor is directly powered by DC...just wouldn't make sense, as the standard outlet in most homes is AC power. That would mean that the AC power is transformed into DC power internally, which provides some buffering between the AC source and the DC load, so that ripple and noise on either side is going to be handled by a bunch of capacitors and magnetic fields. I'm honestly a little surprised my post became controversial...I was recommending that as long as the new switch is rated at least the same as the old, then it should be fine.
And it was this statement that you made in post #3 that got my attention . This is all I am going to say on this.

I would make sure you meet the amperage requirement, more than the horsepower requirement.
 

jttheclockman

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This statement in Louies#16 post is so true. This is so evident in todays power tools. Each company tries to outdo the other and the public buys into this because they do not know better.

The fact is that horsepower ratings are subject to potential manipulation and misrepresentation. There are some hard, standards-based definitions of how motor power ratings should ideally be defined, but that doesn't keep manufacturers from playing games with alternative definitions. The objective appears to be that claiming a higher rating can be justification for a higher price, or can be used to argue that Brand X is better than Brand Y, etc. - you know, typical marketing BS. This situation isn't limited to the lathe market. It started in the high-fi sound business where manufacturers started rating amplifiers in terms of 'peak power' rather than use the agreed-upon nominal power ratings that traditionally had been used in that industry. Then it migrated into the outdoor power equipment business - and today, lawn mowers, snow blowers and similar tools are now rated in terms of engine displacement because consumers simply can't believe manufacturer' claims about engine horsepower.
 

jrista

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And it was this statement that you made in post #3 that got my attention and not necessarily true.

I would make sure you meet the amperage requirement, more than the horsepower requirement.
When would it not be true, though? I don't think anything in this thread has shown that if you replace a 20A AC switch with a similar 20A AC switch for AC input power under the same voltage, that it would then be insufficient to run the same exact loads. A huge mountain was made out of a molehill here, IMO. Over a misunderstandng, at that...I never said ignore horesepower, just that he should prioritize getting a switch that would handle the same amps over horsepower. The switch has to deal with a current, and the machine was designed to use a 20A AC switch. According to Louie, probably even a relatively "cheap" 20A switch at that!

I think this thread was very over-complicated, when it really didn't need to be. 🤷‍♂️

Anyway, I gotta get off the internet...had enough debate for today.
 

jrista

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And it was this statement that you made in post #3 that got my attention . This is all I am going to say on this.

I would make sure you meet the amperage requirement, more than the horsepower requirement.
So...I think I know what you misunderstood that set off this whole thread.

The red here....I'm talking about the SWITCH.....NOT the motor!! I think everyone else in the thread thought I was talking about the motor amperage and horsepower. No. I was talking about the switch! I was saying pay attention to the SWITCH amperage rating, because that is generally what switches are rated in. As long as the new switch is 20A AC (or is at least rated for as much as the original switch, whatever its rating was)...it should have been fine. I should have included the darn word "switch" in my sentence above...probably would have avoided this whole overcomplicated and unnecessary tangent...
 

jttheclockman

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So...I think I know what you misunderstood that set off this whole thread.

The red here....I'm talking about the SWITCH.....NOT the motor!! I think everyone else in the thread thought I was talking about the motor amperage and horsepower. No. I was talking about the switch! I was saying pay attention to the SWITCH amperage rating, because that is generally what switches are rated in. As long as the new switch is 20A AC (or is at least rated for as much as the original switch, whatever its rating was)...it should have been fine. I should have included the darn word "switch" in my sentence above...probably would have avoided this whole overcomplicated and unnecessary tangent...
Jon I do not want to belabor this point because you either did some study or are electrically inclined. But when I grew up in the trades a motor disconnect switch is rated in HP and not amps. As I said that switch can disconnect other things than a motor thus the amperage rating. It is the same thing as using a light switch to turn off a motor. Yes it can but that switch too should have a HP rating. The contacts have to be able to handle the startup current as well as the running current. Again there are more things to rating a motor than amperage as Louie elegantly pointed out. I am done with this discussion. I stated points like yours because many times there is both truth in peoples answer but also info left out. On a motor that startup current can go above 20 amps. Of course not in the case the OP is using this switch so it should be fine if it fits in the enclosure he is putting it in. That is all I am saying. This is the basic reason I do not give electrical advice on this forum because many facts and info can be left out and could cause harm. I am now stepping aside from this topic.
 

penicillin

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My lathe is a Delta 46-460 that I bought used. The previous owner (a friend) told me that the Delta switches were problematic and in a poor location for his working style, so he added a separate switch box to the lower right side. I rarely touch the Delta switch. It worked for him, and it works for me. It saves wear and tear on the Delta switch.

Delta 46-460 Lathe.JPG
 

Mortalis

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My lathe is a Delta 46-460 that I bought used. The previous owner (a friend) told me that the Delta switches were problematic and in a poor location for his working style, so he added a separate switch box to the lower right side. I rarely touch the Delta switch. It worked for him, and it works for me. It saves wear and tear on the Delta switch.

View attachment 338468
I really like this idea. My only comment is the power switch is a bit low. I think I may take this idea and move the switch above the mounted board. This is only going by my memory and not standing at the lathe to determine the actual placement. It's like 100º outside today and in my shop its always 5 - 10 degrees warmer. I'll wait for the temps to drop. :cool:
 

Mortalis

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I apologize for causing such a ruckus. I listed all the specs for the switch knowing I would need to duplicate those specs on anything I purchased. I was only stating, perhaps misleadingly, that if you have this type of a lathe with this size motor it most likely takes the same type of a switch.
This Delta, the equivalent Jet and many others that have the motor mounted where this is mounted, and this is only supposition, are most likely all electrically designed the same.

As I said, I am not an electrical genius and normally call an electrician to change a wall socket. Take that with a grain a salt.
 
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