my journey into the kitless world I: the doorsteps.

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studioso

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Feb 14, 2010
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hello fellow members,

After soaking in as much information as possible through the forums and library, purchasing the triple start tap/die and some drawerful of other tools, and with the help of my newly purchased (used) sherline metal lathe and mill (which are really CNC, but I have yet to decipher the acronym, let alone learn how to use it) I too started to venture into the world of "kitless" pens.

yet what seemed like simple operations in my head, and despite having mentally gone through every step of the process many many times over (I practically dream about tapping blanks) I'm stumbling on the ladder of challenges, hitting every rung on the way down.

(que "chariots of fire" song)

kitless1.JPG


ok, so not including the 2 proto-prototypes, and not including the test drilling, tapping and dying (that's probably not the right verb...) on acrylic rods, this prototype has taken already 4-5 hours of my life -so far. what really gets my neck's hair standing is the fear of somehow cracking the threads on the many opportunities I have given them.
the color is not that elegant, it's a bit too big, but I made it and I love it.

here's a detail:

kitless2.JPG



however, as you can see, there transition between nib holder and body is so-so.

let me tell you about my process:

the outside tenon was first turned down on the metal lathe to .472, then I used the triple start die to thread the front.
-I very lightly touched the first few threads with the skew chisel to give it a slight taper.

the inside was first drilled with a .125 drill, then the front .850 or so were drilled to accomodate the m10x1.0 tap for the elgrande/churchill/canadiana nib. however, the chart recommends a 9.1mm drill, which I don't have (I'm assuming nobody does!) and instead used the closer fraction DOWN, which is 11/32 (11/32 is .344", 9.1mm is .358"). this actually made a very tight fit (despite using enough PAM to supply a Popeye's), end even though I tapped about .750 (with a taper tap) I the nib had a hard time getting in, particularly on the last 2-3 turns.

I would have tried using the closest fraction up, 23/64 (.359) but Murphy had sneaked into my shop and from my trusted 70 drill bit set has taken ONE AND ONLY ONE BIT, the 23/64, hiding it, never to be found.

my main problem, however, is that step right before the nib holder's curve starts. as you can see, that should really be under the threads, somehow. what should I do? if I do find the 23/64, should I simply drill the hole's entrance with it? won't that make the outside threads extremely fragile?

is there a special tool that I can spend more money on that will magically fix this?

can't wait to spend more time on the cap!!

all advice, comments, ideas, congratulations and encouragement very welcome!
 
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studioso said:
the inside was first drilled with a .125 drill, then the front .850 or so were drilled to accomodate the m10x1.0 tap for the elgrande/churchill/canadiana nib. however, the chart recommends a 9.1mm drill, which I don't have (I'm assuming nobody does!) and instead used the closer fraction DOWN, which is 11/32 (11/32 is .344", 9.1mm is .358"). this actually made a very tight fit (despite using enough PAM to supply a Popeye's), end even though I tapped about .750 (with a taper tap) I the nib had a hard time getting in, particularly on the last 2-3 turns.

I would have tried using the closest fraction up, 23/64 (.359) but Murphy had sneaked into my shop and from my trusted 70 drill bit set has taken ONE AND ONLY ONE BIT, the 23/64, hiding it, never to be found.

my main problem, however, is that step right before the nib holder's curve starts. as you can see, that should really be under the threads, somehow. what should I do? if I do find the 23/64, should I simply drill the hole's entrance with it? won't that make the outside threads extremely fragile?
Click to expand...


To answer part of your questions without the pics. I use a 9mm drill bit for the 10x1mm tap,which is the correct size. The way you find out what size drill bit you need for a Metric tap, you take the first number and you subtract the second number from it. In this case you have 10mm-1mm which equals a 9mm drill bit. My sections screw in just fine. Not sure where your problem is with a bit larger than this. With the El Grande nibs there is a little lip at the front edge of the threads. What you need to do is make small chamfer on the inside of the barrel where the section screws into. This will allow that little lip to go inside. If that doesnt work you need to tap your hole deeper. If you make your own front sections that little lip wont be a problem, but i still chamfer that inside edge because to me it cleans up that edge and makes it look much better.

Hope this helps. look forward to seeing your pen

Justin
 
hi,
pictures should work now. BTW, the threads look rough & dirty, but in real life they are actually quite clean and sharp

Justin, thanks for the input.
so how do you chamfer the inside? do you do it before or after you tap?
 
studioso said:
hi,
pictures should work now. BTW, the threads look rough & dirty, but in real life they are actually quite clean and sharp

Justin, thanks for the input.
so how do you chamfer the inside? do you do it before or after you tap?
Click to expand...


From the pics it look like you need to tap further. It doesnt look like that lip is even hitting yet. If it IS just make the chamfer on the front. If you need to tap further thats fine, but you will still need that chamfer or it wont seat all the way.

For the chamfer,i just bring the tool rest up close and i use the edge of my woodchuck carbide tool to just touch the inside edge. You want to do this after tapping so that it cleans up those first few threads. Do it, test the fit, do a little more, test the fit. Just be real careful:biggrin:

Also if you havent made the cap yet, you will want to put a chamfer on it as well. So you mount it, drill it, tap it, then put the chamfer on it. If you dont put the chamfer on the cap as well the cap might not seat flush with the body. This is because the die doesnt cut all the way to the shoulder. Also putting this chamfer on the cap cleans up the threads and just makes it look more professional. And if you kind of round over the transition between where the body ends and the threads start, which it look like you've done a little bit, so that its not a straight shoulder, the body will recess into the cap just a bit in that chamfer and make a nice clean connection. Doesnt take much just a little bit of a rounded edge.

Of course his all depends on the design you want for the pen you are making:biggrin:
 
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So am I understanding that there is a shoulder right below the grip (in between the grip and the threads)? If that is the case there are three ways I could think of to solve this problem. 1 use a parting tool to cut the shoulder away. 2 use a drill that would allow for the shoulder to be inside the body. 3. Make a new grip w/o the shoulder
 
hewunch said:
So am I understanding that there is a shoulder right below the grip (in between the grip and the threads)? If that is the case there are three ways I could think of to solve this problem. 1 use a parting tool to cut the shoulder away. 2 use a drill that would allow for the shoulder to be inside the body. 3. Make a new grip w/o the shoulder
Click to expand...

Yes there is a small shoulder.
All three are doable.

#1 requires having the right tools to hold it properly and not destroy it or the threads.

#2 And you are risking breaking your hole front threaded section. I wouldnt touch a drill bit to this. And you would have to have just the right drill bit. Do this at your your risk.

#3 is the best option here.

But if you want to use the El Grande section, you will have to either do the chamfer(which is the easiest and least risky)and it adds to the nice quality look of the pen or choose one of the other options.

Justin
 
Looking good so far. I agree with TB about cutting a chamfer.

One additional thing about threading - I tap the inside threads first, then made a plug and threaded it so that it fits into the newly tapped cavity. This gives support to the blank when cutting the outside threads, greatly reducing the possibility of breakage when doing that operation. Carry on and have fun.

Dan
 
For the chamfer,i just bring the tool rest up close and i use the edge of my woodchuck carbide tool to just touch the inside edge. You want to do this after tapping so that it cleans up those first few threads. Do it, test the fit, do a little more, test the fit. Just be real careful:biggrin:
Click to expand...
justin, the woodchuck carbide tool: that's the tool I need to buy right now! but tonight I think I'll try with a parting tool...

One additional thing about threading - I tap the inside threads first, then made a plug and threaded it so that it fits into the newly tapped cavity. This gives support to the blank when cutting the outside threads, greatly reducing the possibility of breakage when doing that operation. Carry on and have fun.
Click to expand...

dan, as suggested in an article in the library, I did the opposite, first threaded the outside, then used a threaded insert/collar on the outside to support it while drilling and tapping the inside.

not sure if one way would be any better then the other.
 
If your using a Sherline you can trim that lip off. You can Bore the pen out to accept the lip with a sharp tool bit. I have turned wood down to .028 thickness on a Sherline
Lathe, plastics are a breeze. Keep trying. YOu can polish the outer threads with a tooth brush and polishing compound. You can also turn the die around after you thread it on as far as it will go and it will cut threads up to the shoulder. Use the start side first and then flip it around and do it again.
 
mredburn said:
If your using a Sherline you can trim that lip off. You can Bore the pen out to accept the lip with a sharp tool bit. I have turned wood down to .028 thickness on a Sherline
Lathe, plastics are a breeze. Keep trying. YOu can polish the outer threads with a tooth brush and polishing compound. You can also turn the die around after you thread it on as far as it will go and it will cut threads up to the shoulder. Use the start side first and then flip it around and do it again.
Click to expand...

thanks, I was thinking of doing that on the sherline, but can't think of a good way to hold the blank. only have the 4 chuck jaw, no steady rest (which would kill the finish anyways) and obviously I wouldn't be able to use the tailstock.
any suggestions?
 
I agree with Mike - either get a boring bar or grind down a cutting tool for the lathe and recess the barrel for the section. I do it all the time and there is plenty of room if you are careful. Eventually, you will be cutting threads on the CNC with much less worry about cracking plastics.
 
Make a brass mandrell to hold the pen body on while you work on it. Take a look at my last simple wood pen thread in advanced pen making forum. I use a brass mandrel to turn the pen to finished dimensions.
 
mredburn said:
Make a brass mandrell to hold the pen body on while you work on it. Take a look at my last simple wood pen thread in advanced pen making forum. I use a brass mandrel to turn the pen to finished dimensions.
Click to expand...


I've read that thread with gusto, and I was thinking of doing either that or a pinchuck, but I figured that when turning plastic a regular chuck should work fine, and the pen can be finished one half at a time.

however, your custom mandrel will not help when turning the inside relief, correct?
how would you support the blank for that?
 
First turn your blank round leaving it long to grip in the chuck. After you turn it round, then use a steady rest to support the blank out towards the end. . Are you turning the pen on a wood lathe now or using the Sherline?
 
on the wood lathe I use a centering bit to mark both ends, then I break the edges/roughly round it. on the sherline I chuck the blank in a 4 jaw chuck (using a dead center to help with the centering) and round the blank a bit nicer. then cut the tenon.

from there on it's only on the wood lathe, using a 4 jaw chuck, first finishing the back end of the pen, then the front. (the blank fits of course through the chuck into the headstock)

I don't (yet!) have a steady rest. also, I only have a jakob drill chuck with a 1 taper, don't have one with a 0 taper for the tail stock.


again, tank you taking the time to help me out.
 
All of this is great if you want to go that far just to use an El Grande section. Really all you need is that tiny little chamfer. Very simple. You dont even have to remove the blank from your chuck. No re-setup or anything. Takes all of 1 minute. You are going to spend more time setting things up just to turn that little rim off or to bore the body larger. To me thats time i could be finishing the pen or starting on another. Just seems like overkill just to use this section. If you really want to avoid all of this just make your own front section. Otherwise the chamfer is the SIMPLIST way to accomplish what you are trying to do.IMHO

Just my 2 cents
 
If you made a blank that you held in your chuck and threaded it so the section screwed into it but left the section's one or two threads and shoulder out you can take a small cutter and remove the shoulder with little problem at all.

Just another thought

Chris
 
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