Metal Lathes

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jttheclockman

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Well something I thought I never would be asking but here I am. Skip do not laugh at me!!!!

Metal lathe, yes an opportunity came up and being I know absolutely nothing about metal lathes I will ask here. If I were to go this route what is a good quality metal lathe that will do small projects?? Have no idea what the numbers mean when talking about 7-12, 7-14 and 7 -16. I assume like a wood lathe it means length of bed and depth of object that can be turned between center and bed. Now I have a person who wants to sell a lathe similar to this one
https://www.micromark.com/MicroLux-...MI2bb89P367AIV0MDACh1guAOIEAAYAiAAEgLbpfD_BwE

They are asking $700 but I did a quick look around and see other brand new lathes for around that or just a little above. Are there better brands and what are they?? Have no idea what chucks they have but he showed me some gears. Again not sure what they do. What would I need for such as chucks and cutters and things like that?? I know it is alot to ask.

I really think this forum should have a subforum under it titled Metal Lathes. I read a few past threads here and it seems like a good idea to get a lathe with digital speed indicator. Man seems like a whole other language to work with these lathes too.

Thoughts??
 
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magpens

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The language of metal lathes is not as "foreign" as you might think, John .

For example, 7-16 means (max DIAMETER of workpiece in inches) - (approx length of bed in inches).

I have often thought that an IAP subforum on metal lathes would be nice.

The Micromark lathe you referenced would be suitable for pens ..... it looks to be similar (or maybe same) as Sieg type lathe, which is very common.

Better quality would be Precision Matthews brand.

You could do some browsing on ....... www.LittleMachineShop.com ....... if you want to familiarize yourself with the lingo and accessories like chucks.
I would recommend a 4" 4-jaw scroll chuck (so-called "self-centering", not the independent jaws).


The LMS lathe is called by the brand name HiTorque, but it is actually a Sieg lathe as they, in fact, state ... or, at least, some models are actually Sieg

I have bought plenty of accessories, like chucks, from LMS and those accessories are fully compatible with my Sieg which I bought from a Canadian vendor. . I paid about $450 CDN for it about 10+ years ago and it is still going strong with no problems.

I think that Harbor Freight and Grizzly sell the Sieg lathe in US. . The Sieg is a Chinese lathe and is calibrated in metric other than basic size like 7x16
I honestly don't know if the Micromark lathe is any better.
 
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Nanoqx

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Hello, I too am looking into getting a metal lathe soon, but do you have any idea what it is you are going to be do with it? The reason I ask is like any other tool, to simply ask if it is a "Good one" is subjective. Are you asking if it is a quality machine, or if it will perform the tasks you want it to. The two are not synonymous. Metal lathes differ widely in their capabilities unlike wood lathes, and the "Best quality" lathe that can't perform the function you need is useless. To ask what the gears are tells me you are completely unfamiliar with metal lathes, (No offence we all start somewhere) so I would recommend finding a lathe that fits your needs rather than buying a lathe and then seeing what you can make, does that make sense? It's a little like knowing nothing about wood working and buying a few random tools and then seeing what you can make with them. By the way the carriage is power fed, and the gears control its speed which in turn are used cut various thread pitches. Inexpensive, not necessarily cheap, machines still use gears, common in this price range, they are a pain in the, well you know. They are using digital speed control on small lathes now that are very affordable, so the ones that have a digital indicator most likely have digital speed control and not gears. There is a rather steep learning curve on metal lathes, I hope this helps?
 

howsitwork

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There's a very good book by L C Sparey called "The Amateurs Lathe "published by MAP publications. Over here it's common place. It's a very old book but the techniques and methods to use are very well described in it.

More advanced stuff is covered in George Thomas s many books and it's easy to get totally enthralled by it John. I speak from experience on that front.

A gear box rather than gears is quite handy but I don't know the lathe you speak of so can't really help on that front. A self centering , or scrolling 4 jaw chuck is definitely recommended though as said above.
 

jttheclockman

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Hello, I too am looking into getting a metal lathe soon, but do you have any idea what it is you are going to be do with it? The reason I ask is like any other tool, to simply ask if it is a "Good one" is subjective. Are you asking if it is a quality machine, or if it will perform the tasks you want it to. The two are not synonymous. Metal lathes differ widely in their capabilities unlike wood lathes, and the "Best quality" lathe that can't perform the function you need is useless. To ask what the gears are tells me you are completely unfamiliar with metal lathes, (No offence we all start somewhere) so I would recommend finding a lathe that fits your needs rather than buying a lathe and then seeing what you can make, does that make sense? It's a little like knowing nothing about wood working and buying a few random tools and then seeing what you can make with them. By the way the carriage is power fed, and the gears control its speed which in turn are used cut various thread pitches. Inexpensive, not necessarily cheap, machines still use gears, common in this price range, they are a pain in the, well you know. They are using digital speed control on small lathes now that are very affordable, so the ones that have a digital indicator most likely have digital speed control and not gears. There is a rather steep learning curve on metal lathes, I hope this helps?
Oh I am green as green can be when it comes to metal lathes. Now I can refer back to a wood lathe when you speak chucks and things like that. But the carriages and pitch and all are new words for my vocabulary. As far as items I am looking to do with it is basically some things I make on a wood lathe but want to do in metal. Such as kitless pens, ornaments, bottlestoppers, and many items I want to incorporate in my scrollsawing hobby such as stands and other projects. Have no idea where this all could lead to but I would like to buy once. Now this lathe that came up is in great condition but as I said the price seems high but I see they run $300 more if new. It got me thinking as many times I start doing and gets me in trouble. But I have seen others talk about their metal lathes and things they can do. It was an idea I always floated around in my head but never drilled down on it. I know there are many talented people who know this stuff and as I see will share knowledge so that is a good place to start. Mal is a perfect example as we see here. As are others. My plate is full now but always looking to expand my abilities when possible. This may be a tool that can do just that. Yes a separate subfoum would be nice here for just metal lathe questions and info. I am book marking this thread for my own use.
 

jttheclockman

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There is a Metal Lathe Forum. Jeff put it in the " Shops,Tools and Equipment" in the Forums tab. All of the old threads are in there.
Tons of Q&A's.
Thank you Chuck. I did not know that. See you learn something new here every day. That is what I am look for.
Good to know. I can send people there too for wood lathe questions too.
I missed that one. Hope this helps others too.
 

randyrls

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The major difference of wood vs metal lathe is the metal lathe has a tool and holder that is driven along the length of the bed by a lead screw. There is a gear train used for threading between the spindle and the lead screw that sets the rotation ratio of one to the other. Larger lathes may / will have separate lead screws for threading and "feed" (stock removal).
 

jttheclockman

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Here is some reading material to help get started, or even help you decide if you want to take the plunge.
Thanks again Chuck I will read this as well as take in alot of those past threads. If anything I will educate myself some so that if I do go down this path at some time if not now I will have a better understanding. A metal lathe is a bit more complicated than a wood lathe which is basically straight forward. I do have a kitless pen that I had in mind for such a long time and would really see if i could pull it off. One of those long shots that I tucked away in the brain. I do have some plans drawn so who knows.
 

jttheclockman

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Chuck that link is actually a good read because now I have an idea what parts are what and what the gears are for and things like that. From the looks of it most of these lathes are the same. I also can now make some comparisons with different features. Now that I know what I am looking at. Thanks again.:)
 

skiprat

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Well, blow me down!!!!! ๐Ÿ˜ณ The old codger is eventually giving in to the dark side!!.....

Good info so far John, I can only add:
1. Get the biggest, baddest heaviest lathe you can afford and fit in your shop.
2. Get one of the modern Chinese clones. Far more bang for buck. Go metric lead screw.
3. Get one with change gears, not a limited gearbox.
4. Unless already fitted, A quick change tool post is nice but really not necessary. Save your money for other tooling
5. Make a rock solid bench for it.
6. Get to grips on how to shape and sharpen HSS cutting tools. Better results than insert tools on a smallish lathe.
7. Loads of other stuff, but have slipped my mind at the mo. ๐Ÿ˜’

Years ago I made a post with pics of all my favourite accessories, some homemade. I'll see if I can find it later.
 

skiprat

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Found it John.
I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be long before you had a router attached so maybe something like my power tool holder would work for you.

My machine is classed as 10 x 21. This is bollocks really as the 21 is between centres and doesn't allow for any chucks, face plates or even a drive dog. By the time you have a 3 jaw Chuck in the headstock, a drill Chuck with 1/2 drill in the tail stock and of course your workpiece, you soon run out of bed length.
The 10 inch diameter is also mostly bollocks as this is measured over the bed , not over the carriage. I reckon in reality it's more like 3 inch radius (6 diameter) over the carriage.
I've never really needed more than the 3 inch clearance over the carriage except when I tried to mount my rotary table on it.
I consider my lathe size 'just' adequate. A longer bed would have been nice though.

When making/buying a bench, really consider the height and that you can get your toes under it. Especially with your back issues. My spindle height is just over 4 foot. I'm 5, 10. I had it lower but got back ache. Now that it's higher, it's a dream to use. I will add more as I think of it. ๐Ÿ˜‰
 

jttheclockman

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Hello Steven. Glad you weighed in. Have my bench coming already. Just ordered last night so I am leaning this way more and more. It is a rolling heavy duty workbench. I have one already for some other heavy tools that I set up this past summer so the bench should work well. You made a very good point that I did not think of and probably should have because I see it on my wood lathe. That is the length of the bed. I mainly use my 1014 jet lathe but many times I have to watch when I move the tailstock back to get chuck on and drill chuck on and a blank in place, that I do not let it slip off the bed.

That is a large lathe and am sure a heavy one. Not sure I want to go that big. It will be me that has to lug it down stairs and set up. I truely am not looking to do large work with this if I go this route.

A couple questions being we have this thread open here. Why is a 4 jaw chuck better than a 3 jaw?? Is it a real good idea to get a digital speed indicator and does speed play a huge role in this ?? Do all these metal lathes have reverse or do they have a clutch where you take out of forward drive and just free wheel?? Do all these lathes have indexing built in or is this an extra?? I do have so much to read up on for sure I know it. I started some yesterday and liked Chucks link to actually a basic explanation of what a lathe had. I will read your link and love looking at your photos. I do remember these things when you posted but it is taken on a different life form now. Not sure why I am getting the bug but maybe because this guy showed me his lathe he wants to sell the other day.

I am really crossing over to the dark side because I now also have a link to a Byrnes mini tablesaw that a guy is wanting to unload. If I can get that for a good price I will add that to my arsenal. 2 tools I thought I would never own. What is happening to me. I should be selling tools not buying any more. I am too old for this. Stop the madness. :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
 

skiprat

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An independent 4 jaw is technically more accurate as you would use a dial indicator on the work piece and then adjust each jaw until the piece ran perfectly true.
However, if you start and finish all your turning without removing the workpiece from any Chuck, then it will be true.
It really is just that a scroll Chuck is by design not perfect.

Sorry John, just finished dinner. Ok, speed . Most modern machines come with variable speed as standard. You most often still have two pulley positions though. Generally, metal lathes run slower than wood machines but with the variable speed, you can actually run the spindle at 1 rev per minute and have full torque. Really helps when doing threading for example.
Reverse function is very common, particularly on a machine with variable speed. Reverse function on a non variable machine needs interlocked contactors and several expensive mechanical parts to control speed by steps. A modern electronic card is far cheaper.
Most modern lathes can do a variety of metric or imperial threads. But they are all the common sizes. I just think the maths to do metric work is far easier.
Change gears instead of a fixed gearbox is where you can get very creative. For instance, you can arrange your gears to do several spirals around a pen blank with a router. You cannot do that with a fixed box.
You can make big and small stuff on a big lathe, but you can only make small stuff on a small lathe..
Rigidity is critical with metal lathes. A heavier machine will produce a better finish than a small flexible machine.
It's hard to imagine but all machines, no matter how big, actually bend and flex as they work. The bigger and heavier the more stable. That's why the majority or good machines are made from cast iron instead of aluminium.....

I just want to remind anyone that isn't sure, that many of my attachments are used only when the lathe is off....๐Ÿ˜‰

Sorry, forgot about indexing. I have never seen a metal lathe that has a standard indexing feature. Not a good idea to have an index pin in place and then to try and start the machine..!!!! But making your own indexer is simple. See my little block with the black knob...
Some people also index off the gears on the spindle. There are many solutions. ๐Ÿ˜‰
 
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magpens

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John, you asked : "Why is a 4 jaw chuck better than a 3 jaw??"

That's a good question, and since it may have come from my suggestion, I SHOULD be able to answer it.

But, thinking about it, it may just be personal preference without a rock-solid reason.
Main point for me is to get a larger chuck throat size, so as to accept cylindrical stock at least 0.75" diam, and preferably 0.85" diam.
A 4" 3-jaw might give you that. . I went through this quite a few years ago and settled on the 4-jaw .... possibly because some prejudice I have.
I sometimes like to be able to do rough angular indexing, and the 4-jaw is convenient with jaws at 90-degrees. . I'll think some more.

John, you also asked : " Do all these lathes have indexing built in or is this an extra?? " . Are you referring to angular indexing ?
If you are, then, most lathes (and headstock chucks) do not provide that, in my experience. . You have to buy/make accessories to do it, I think.
Would be nice to have this feature for some jobs.

You also asked about reverse .... " Do all these metal lathes have reverse " .... my little 7 x 16 Sieg has it in the power switch ... it's a mixed blessing because if you hastily throw the switch it can sometimes go into reverse when you least want that. . I have only rarely ever found a need for reverse turning.

As for ... " does speed play a huge role in this ? " .... I don't find turning speed to be critical to the point where I need to know it accurately.
It is VERY nice to have electronic variable speed control. . I often use very low speed for applying CA, and in some sanding operations where I am sanding lengthwise at very low speed. . But I haven't had a need to know the actual speed .... . By "very low speed" I mean approx. 5-10 RPM ... or so !

I would hate to have to adjust the speed with belts or gears.

I would agree with Skip that a quick-change tool post is not a necessity. . For the small Sieg lathes you can buy tool holders that attach to the standard tool post and give you almost quick-change capability .... for example, to mount a cut-off blade. . That capability has been adequate for me.

These are my opinions only. . I hope you don't mind my chirping in here.
 

jttheclockman

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ABSOLUTELY NOT Mal!!! Chirp away please. Anyone else jump in you are welcomed. I am absorbing all this. Yes I did pick it up in your post and thus the question about chucks. I do want to be able to add the router attachments to the metal lathe because I can see right away the precision is so much better with a metal lathe than a wood lathe. I bet drilling is even more solid and accurate. Skip is a master with that thing and wish I could pick his brains and just put them in mine. ๐Ÿค–
 

BRobbins629

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You're on the right track John. Ive found my metal lathe one of the most used tools in my shop. mine is on the small size, about a 7 x 14 but that suits me fine. Yes larger is sometime better but like other equipment the size is really dictated by what you want to make. if just smallish parts, the smaller ones are fine. Longer beds are nice just like wood lathes for accommodating accessories as taps, dies, etc. if you're more inclined to add routers and other gadgets like Skip, then perhaps a bigger one will work. As for pens and similar size items i have said in the past that I don't think there are any pens I have seen on this site that couldn't be made with a 7 x 12 or 14 With a little ingenuity. As you probably seen, there us a good market for used lathes, even the small ones so the risk is small if you feel the need to go larger in the future.
 

jttheclockman

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You're on the right track John. Ive found my metal lathe one of the most used tools in my shop. mine is on the small size, about a 7 x 14 but that suits me fine. Yes larger is sometime better but like other equipment the size is really dictated by what you want to make. if just smallish parts, the smaller ones are fine. Longer beds are nice just like wood lathes for accommodating accessories as taps, dies, etc. if you're more inclined to add routers and other gadgets like Skip, then perhaps a bigger one will work. As for pens and similar size items i have said in the past that I don't think there are any pens I have seen on this site that couldn't be made with a 7 x 12 or 14 With a little ingenuity. As you probably seen, there us a good market for used lathes, even the small ones so the risk is small if you feel the need to go larger in the future.
Bruce this is my thought process right now to get my feet wet. The one thing I do want to avoid though is buying chucks and other addons twice. Hopefully if I go smaller than graduate I can take along the chucks and things. I am going to look over as much info as I can. I know I will probably make mistakes along the way but what the heck. Thanks.
 

Curly

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John there are two kinds of 4 jaw chucks used on metal lathes. Scroll and independent. A scroll type is just like a wood chuck in that a chuck key moves all 4 jaws at the same time. The independent has 4 places for the chuck key, one at each end one the jaw. You turn each one one at a time to hold your work and as mentioned earlier in combination with an indicator you center the item in the jaws. You also can offset the work as well and you can grip irregularly shaped pieces, an egg shape for example. Both chucks have their place but the independent takes more time to set up parts in. Scroll chucks come in 3 jaw and 4 jaw.

As far as indexing it isn't usually done like on a wood lathe. Easiest in a small lathe is to make an indexing pin that engages the teeth of driving gears at the back of the lathe or affixing an index plate to the end of the spindle shaft on the outboard end. My lathe is a 13x37 lathe and there is no provision for indexing by the factory and I can't recall any manual lathe having it. Index work usually being done on milling machines using dividing heads and rotary tables etc mounted on the bed.

You will find very much like wood lathes, the lathe is the cheapest part. The accessories add up fast.

Pete
 

jttheclockman

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John there are two kinds of 4 jaw chucks used on metal lathes. Scroll and independent. A scroll type is just like a wood chuck in that a chuck key moves all 4 jaws at the same time. The independent has 4 places for the chuck key, one at each end one the jaw. You turn each one one at a time to hold your work and as mentioned earlier in combination with an indicator you center the item in the jaws. You also can offset the work as well and you can grip irregularly shaped pieces, an egg shape for example. Both chucks have their place but the independent takes more time to set up parts in. Scroll chucks come in 3 jaw and 4 jaw.

As far as indexing it isn't usually done like on a wood lathe. Easiest in a small lathe is to make an indexing pin that engages the teeth of driving gears at the back of the lathe or affixing an index plate to the end of the spindle shaft on the outboard end. My lathe is a 13x37 lathe and there is no provision for indexing by the factory and I can't recall any manual lathe having it. Index work usually being done on milling machines using dividing heads and rotary tables etc mounted on the bed.

You will find very much like wood lathes, the lathe is the cheapest part. The accessories add up fast.

Pete
Now see I would have thought indexing on a metal lathe would something that is needed. I have alot to learn for sure. Thanks.
 

skiprat

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JT, as has been mentioned, it is entirely feasible to use a smaller lathe. Watch makers use tiny lathes too. If you watch Joe Piecinzkie ( sorry, I know I spelt his name wrong) on YouTube, he has just started making a metal lathe from a USA kit. It is TINY...๐Ÿ˜ณ
I'm not going to bang on about going bigger anymore I promise, but I just remembered something that may be important if you plan to mount a router. It's the cross slide and compound slide travel lengths. You really run out of travel fast when trying to do a diagonal cut across a blank. On my lathe , I can get about 60mm on the compound. If you use a 20mm router cutter on a 20mm blank you need a minimum of 60 mm for the bit to travel.๐Ÿ˜‰
This is why I have to use such a convoluted method to make pool cue blanks. I need to hold the blank at the angle and use the carriage rather than the compound.
Anyway, think about it before committing. Don't restrict your creativity just to save a few bucks. ( I believe you are loaded anyway!!! ๐Ÿ˜ƒ)
 

PatrickR

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I use the metal lathe more than the wood lathe, never regretted buying it.
Mine came with a three jaw chuck and I have never used it. I went with er32 collets from the start and love them. When I buy metal, I buy round stock. When starting with square blanks (wood/plastic) I round them BTC then move to the collets.


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jttheclockman

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JT, as has been mentioned, it is entirely feasible to use a smaller lathe. Watch makers use tiny lathes too. If you watch Joe Piecinzkie ( sorry, I know I spelt his name wrong) on YouTube, he has just started making a metal lathe from a USA kit. It is TINY...๐Ÿ˜ณ
I'm not going to bang on about going bigger anymore I promise, but I just remembered something that may be important if you plan to mount a router. It's the cross slide and compound slide travel lengths. You really run out of travel fast when trying to do a diagonal cut across a blank. On my lathe , I can get about 60mm on the compound. If you use a 20mm router cutter on a 20mm blank you need a minimum of 60 mm for the bit to travel.๐Ÿ˜‰
This is why I have to use such a convoluted method to make pool cue blanks. I need to hold the blank at the angle and use the carriage rather than the compound.
Anyway, think about it before committing. Don't restrict your creativity just to save a few bucks. ( I believe you are loaded anyway!!! ๐Ÿ˜ƒ)
( I believe you are loaded anyway!!! ๐Ÿ˜ƒ) Hey I am not drunk:) Just trying to spend the familys inheritance before I go. They say you can not take it with you, well I am going to make it awful hard for them too. They will have to sell this junk ( I mean toys) :)

So what is more important length or height?? I I have been wanting to make a base for my dremel router for the wood lathe so maybe will do that for the metal lathe instead.
 

jttheclockman

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I use the metal lathe more than the wood lathe, never regretted buying it.
Mine came with a three jaw chuck and I have never used it. I went with er32 collets from the start and love them. When I buy metal, I buy round stock. When starting with square blanks (wood/plastic) I round them BTC then move to the collets.


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What do you have and any regrets or should have done or bought items??
 

bmachin

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Hopefully if I go smaller than graduate I can take along the chucks and things. I am going to look over as much info as I can. I know I will probably make mistakes along the way but what the heck. Thanks.
John,

One thing about moving up in size is that as the lathe gets bigger, so do the chucks, toolholders and many other accessories. Some of it you will be able to adapt, but most of it you won't.

On the other hand those items make your small lathe more sale-able.

Bill
 

PatrickR

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What do you have and any regrets or should have done or bought items??

7x14, Seig style. It is fine for my use. I've had it for 5 years without any problems.
I bought for my budget. The tolerances could be better. I doubt that you would regret buying a bigger, better machine.
Additions -
Er32 collet flange and collets
Quick change tool holder, I use indexable cutters and wood working carbide.
Get a high quality spotting bit.
I want to add indexing and a Dremel attachment.


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FGarbrecht

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Another reason to get longer bed length is for drilling; you run out of space very quickly with a big chuck and a long drill bit.

ER32 collets are the way to go (cheap and accurate if you are OK waiting for a delivery from China). I never use a chuck anymore. I do rough rounding on wood lathe (for square pen blanks) and then finish on the metal lathe.

I use a router mounted on the metal lathe to cut threads in wood, I used a commercial mount (I think from LMS) that required a little modification to get it to work, but not too hard).

If you get a Chinese Seig type lathe, I recommend a QCTP if only because it makes adjusting vertical tool height very easy; otherwise you have to shim the tool to get correct height which is a PITA. Don't know about the Micromark lathe, maybe it has a decent tool post with easy height adjustment, but worth checking out.

Here are a couple of relevant websites to check out:
 

howsitwork

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John , one passing comment on 4 jaw SCROLLING. chucks , the extra jaw gives you far better holding power maybe not that critical on wood , which compresses but important on metal which ( generally ) does not.

ER32 collets are indeed a god send for work and tool holding. If you upsize you can often put new back plates on the chucks etc to repurpose them but , as has been said sometimes it's better to trade in and trade up at 5he same time.

For ease I love my quick change tool post and holders ( but you always have at least one to few holders !๐Ÿค”)
 

BRobbins629

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Richmond, VA, USA.
( I believe you are loaded anyway!!! ๐Ÿ˜ƒ) Hey I am not drunk:) Just trying to spend the familys inheritance before I go. They say you can not take it with you, well I am going to make it awful hard for them too. They will have to sell this junk ( I mean toys) :)

So what is more important length or height?? I I have been wanting to make a base for my dremel router for the wood lathe so maybe will do that for the metal lathe instead.
Pretty easy to make a mount for a Dremil or Fordom can on the tool rest of even the smallest metal lathes. I've done it many times with a piece of angle iron and a few clamps.
 
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