Members Only?

Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad

Members Only?

  • Total voters
    4
jeff

jeff

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 5, 2003
Messages
9,028
Location
Westlake, OH, USA.
Currently, the entire IAP site is viewable by anyone. Should the entire IAP discussion forum be viewable to members only?
 
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
If the forum were made available only to members, there would be little impetus to join IAP. In other words, no try-before-you-buy opportunity for folks who wander by.

I would not object to limiting certain topics to members, if appropriate. In fact, it might make sense to limit certain topics to members who have demonstrated a certain level of worthwhile particpation and/or tenure. By worthwhile participation, I mean substantive contributions from time to time and not just a steady stream of lighthearted banter.
 
Originally posted by ctwxlvr

BUT, some content should not require membership.
Click to expand...
Such as?

My motivation is to possibly address the issues raised in this topic. If we get too carried away on not sharing, we'll end up just talking in vague generalities and I'm not sure that we can continue to push the state of the art as we have.

Making the entire site members only would certainly not stop the "theft of ideas" that concern some of us, but at least it would stop the casual surfers from easily seeing things. Of course people could join with the sole intent of seeing the forum to steal ideas. I don't know how you'd stop that.

On the broader note of "theft of ideas", I'm not sure that if the idea you want to protect is the actual end product, how you stop it at all. The moment you sell your top secret pen, doesn't that license the buyer to show it around and post a photo wherever? (Unless you negotiate some type of restriction, and then who wants a pen they can't show off??) If the secret is a process or method, that's a different story. You're certainly not obliged to explain that.

The bottom line is that I'm a little saddened by the idea that some of our best penmakers don't want to show their best work here. Possibly making the forum private is just my feeble attempt to provide a "safer" environment for continued sharing.
 
I think whether there are member only areas or not, ideas are going to be shared or "borrowed". Even if someone has a new idea that they want to keep secret, eventually it is going to become known and someone will "borrow" it. Sooner or later it will be shared here on IAP.
 
Jeff, I voted yes. I think your last post hits the nail on the head. I'm not sure that it would solve things due to the fact that its easy to sign up. As for not requiring membership - maybe the library and a 'public' discussion area makes sense to leave open?

However, even though I voted yes, I'm not sure how big of a difference it would make. Also I'm a bit worried about the pain it would cause you - the home page has ties into areas that would be locked, and I'd hate to see you lose new members because of problems on the home page.
 
I think you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. If you are doing it solely for the purpose of slowing down theft and encouraging folks to post more photos, then you are wasting your time. Based on another thread there have been some pretty prominent people in the industry claiming ideas as their own and I would suspect would already be a member. If you come to here to steal ideas and it is members only, then big deal sign up to be a member.

Now from a different outlook:
Since we changed a few setting on our website shopping cart and began allowing annonymous checkout (ie...you don't have to resgister) our sales online have more than doubled. Many folks espcially the baby boomer generation hate to give out personal information, especially for something they have no idea what it is like on the inside. There are too many forums out there that you have to register to even see what it is about and once you are inside most of them are pretty dead.

Personally I think there are other reasons for the members only idea. Jeff you are way to intelligent to think switching to a members only forum will cutail the theft or unwanted copying of ideas.

Anyway thats my $.005 worth.
Mike
 
All this leaves me with a question.
If we don't want to share ideas...or our work why are we here?
I guess my idea of a forum is different from others here so this is what "The American Heritage Dictionary" says about it. Pay close attention to b. c. and d.

fo·rum


a. The public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.

b. A public meeting place for open discussion.

c. A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website.

d. A public meeting or presentation involving a discussion usually among experts and often including audience participation.

e. A court of law; a tribunal.
 
Originally posted by jeff
The bottom line is that I'm a little saddened by the idea that some of our best penmakers don't want to show their best work here.
Click to expand...

I felt the same way when I read the posts, and I think it's great you want to try to change the attitude. Maybe another question to ask is what would have to be done to make some of the people on the board who are afraid to post their "secret" work feel comfortable posting. Or if anything can be done if they already feel this way [?][?][?]
 
I don't believe that anyone that has a "secret" process or ability is going to share that with anyone open or closed forum. If they are not willing to share their "secret" on an open forum they surely would hesitate to post it in a closed forum for members only, especially as those are the people most likely to have the wherewithal and means to replicate the process. The casual observer probably does not have the tools or skills necessary to do that.
I am not trying to knock those that are not willing to share their "secrets", that is their perogitive.
 
Sorry Jeff,

You can't legislate ethics.
Some gotem, some don't.

Some of the most qualified, highest-esteemed turners will TAKE without permission and NONE of us has the resources to defend our designs. You can't steal what you have NOT seen.

Look at how many new ideas ARE shared and how far the craft has travelled in the past couple years. The IAP HAS led to GREAT sharing of ideas. SOME of us even correspond with each other in private e-mails, developing and refining ideas that end up here.

MOST of the "Very talented" are also members of the PMG, where they can retreat to talk with other talented people. (I am not a PMG member and I don't consider myself in the "very talented" pool, just for those who might think this a "snobby" comment)

This site is great the way it is. Improvements are ALWAYS welcome and you are, I believe, always interested in ways to improve. BUT, you can't change this leopard's spots. As long as there are people willing to steal intellectual property, I will keep SOME of my property private. YOU and 90% of the rest of the membership may respect my rights - but if there is ONE person who won't do so, and there is, I'm not going to show HIM my new "twist".

This has always been the case and I am NOT alone. SO, the progress that the site has made has been under this "unwritten rule". Yet, everyone acknowledges that the PROGRESS is remarkable. It ain't broke, no need to fix it!!!

As always, Jeff, THANKS for your concern - but the site is GREAT and over 90% of the contributors are honest people. Unless you can build a "Utopia", you aren't gonna get much better than that!!!

FWIW:):):)
 
How many times have we read, "I've been lurking about on this sight for several weeks and decided that I needed to join up"? Put me in that group. I visited for several weeks before deciding I wanted to join. If any restrictions HAVE to be imposed perhaps anyone could see the current threads but not access the albums or archives. I'm not even sure if that is possible since I'm computer challenged at best. I just don't think you can solve the "theft" problem by restricting access. I vote for leaving it like it is.

There are so many good ideas shared on this site that I don't have the skill or time to do that I don't think I'll miss the ones that are not shared. I've no problem with folks wanting to keep some things to themselves. That's what freedom is all about. Is this a great country or what!
 
I agree with Ed,you hit the nail on the head as far as stealing ideas but the question that was asked in the start of this thread was would you have your customers log on the see all the pens,prices,how much we pay for kits,blanks,etc on group buys. I said not only no but I wish at times this forum was for members only. I don't know if its possible but keep non members from seeing the Marketing,and classified forums. Thats my only concern not if someone would steal my ideas. If I ever have something so earth shattering that its going to make me the next Edison, I'll share it AFTER I see a patent lawyer, in the meantime I'll post what I want other here to see and share 90% of what I do.What we need is keep the public out of our marketing and business sections.
 
Do you remember what a "stink" that some IAP members mentioned when Rhiezing asked to register to view their pricing for pens?. If you make it restrictive or an inconvenience then a "potential" future IAP HALL of FAMER may not join "us" at all. Keep it simple, leave the viewing as is. There are some great ideas and beautiful masterpieces being created but guys let's get real and accept that we are only making beautiful art. So what if Davincis, Botticellis, Michelangelo's (do you see my Italian prejudice here?[:o)]) are "borrowed"? At times I think that we have some real prima donnas here that have inflated pen egos that grow longer than Pinocchio's nose[:o)] Stay real and stay grounded.

-Peter-:) with some not so humble opinions;)
 
My only issue. I have no problem with non-members viewing the forum only certain areas. I do have a problem in areas were we are dicussing pricing of our work, customer issues, kit issues, and group buys. Those areas should be left to members only. You may have a mix of pen turners and customers buying your finished product.
 
I think Jeff has quite a conundrum on his hands. By making the site 'registration required', he would be essentially limiting membership to the few who KNOW what the IAP is about. Very few passers-by would stop and join...I wouldn't have, because I WASN'T a penturner then. I joined because I looked at a few posts, decided I'd learn a lot, and wanted to contribute and learn as much as possible!

However, if the result of not registering is that we lose one of our greatest attributes - that of free sharing of ideas, and inspiration - then we will essentially destroy what this forum is about. To me, a forum is a place where you meet, chat, and LEARN.

Personally, I think the greatest form of flattery would be to have someone use a design that I created...and I think that that would inspire me to make an even better design to try and stay ahead of the pack. As far as intellectual property is concerned, trademark it...seriously, if you're afraid that your priceless design will be plastered over every pen shop from here to Yuma, then protect it somehow if that's your concern...but I think the bigger concern would be to lose the free exchange of ideas that make forums work...

So no, I didn't vote - because I don't know the answer...but I don't like the options that have been presented - block anonymous viewers, or see people stop posting their processes...Because if we stop presenting ideas and challenges to others, who will inspire and challenge us?? That's just my two cents - and I know it won't convince anyone who's polar-opposite in opinion to mine, but 'what man is a man who does not try to make the world better?'

Andrew
 
I agree with Alan. I think portions of the forum should be open to non-members, but I think certain portions should be open to members only, such as marketing and shows, individual classifieds, business calssifieds, shop jigs fixtures, group buys, the library, and such. These should be members only!! That way, a casual surfer can look at a lot of information and get a good feel for the forum before they join. Then when they see that there are even more topics for them to look at by joining, then then can. If they choose not to, that is their loss. We won't stop everything as this is not a perfect world. In fact, there was a quote I read a long, long time ago that said something like this, " Nature intended the world to be an almost perfect place, and it was until man came along."

Just my thoughts

Rob
 
I voted no, but I fully understand the sentiment of some. If I were to come up with a new concept or idea (like Skippy seems to keep doing), I might want to get it out myself for awhile before sharing. Then again, I might not. How many of us have the equipment or knowledge required to turn metal pens? Some, but only some so the risk of someone beating you to the market of such items is far less. I've learned a great deal from many of our members (past and present) and I've used this knowledge to improve. I've also used this knowledge to "springboard" or otherwise refine concepts to what best works for me. These may or may not be useful to others, but I've shared most of them nonetheless.

I believe it was Solomon who said, "There is nothing new under the sun.";)
 
In my opinion, The theft of ideas issue is becoming a reality if even in very few cases. This on one hand only shows that penturning is coming into it's own as a variation of wood turning in general. this is a huge benchmark to have reached. on the down side along with recognition and advancement comes the same issues that have plagued turners since the first table leg was made. when is it borrowing and when is it stealing? closing this site to non members will do nothing to address this issue. and it will prevent the try to see if you like it as well. look how many new members say, I came, I read, I said wow, so I joined. What I suggest is a way for this group to record the advancements of our members. it might be hard to verify that some ideas where original. but what about TSW by Lou, the corn cob blank by Larry or even the 50 cal pen by Paul. Home stabilization ideas, even methods of casting acrylic blanks. there have been so many ideas born from members of this group. Not only should they have the credit recorded but the I.A.P. as a group should also. even just a file that has any hot new thing added to it with date and credit as best as we know given to the originator. This would also serve as a means to discredit claims such as Lou had with the Puzzle pen thing.
 
Originally posted by ed4copies

Sorry Jeff,

You can't legislate ethics.
Some gotem, some don't.

Some of the most qualified, highest-esteemed turners will TAKE without permission and NONE of us has the resources to defend our designs. You can't steal what you have NOT seen.

Look at how many new ideas ARE shared and how far the craft has travelled in the past couple years. The IAP HAS led to GREAT sharing of ideas. SOME of us even correspond with each other in private e-mails, developing and refining ideas that end up here.

MOST of the "Very talented" are also members of the PMG, where they can retreat to talk with other talented people. (I am not a PMG member and I don't consider myself in the "very talented" pool, just for those who might think this a "snobby" comment)

This site is great the way it is. Improvements are ALWAYS welcome and you are, I believe, always interested in ways to improve. BUT, you can't change this leopard's spots. As long as there are people willing to steal intellectual property, I will keep SOME of my property private. YOU and 90% of the rest of the membership may respect my rights - but if there is ONE person who won't do so, and there is, I'm not going to show HIM my new "twist".

This has always been the case and I am NOT alone. SO, the progress that the site has made has been under this "unwritten rule". Yet, everyone acknowledges that the PROGRESS is remarkable. It ain't broke, no need to fix it!!!

As always, Jeff, THANKS for your concern - but the site is GREAT and over 90% of the contributors are honest people. Unless you can build a "Utopia", you aren't gonna get much better than that!!!

FWIW:):):)
Click to expand...


Ed has a point,

I will post some stuff but there is a very small amount that I keep to myself. I'm currently working on a project that is inspired by a pen kit and if successful could become a good seller for me. Sorry but I'm not going to show it for a while and there is only one person who even knows what it is. I told Ed that he is sworn to secrecy and if I ever find out he told anyone I will find out his HOME phone number and post it! I'm sure that has him plenty scared. :D

About 6 weeks ago I had an inquiry from a magazine as the the origin of the Sierra pencil tutorial. It seems that another "author" submitted an article to a magazine and submitted a hacked up version of my tutor claiming it as their own. What they failed to do was to change the tag in Acrobat showing who wrote the article. Needless to say the article will not be published as submitted, if it's published at all. I have learned a lot from the membership here and I have tried to give back as much as I can but after having someone attempt to claim my work as their own for a profit is unacceptable in my book.

I also believe a similar situation has happened to another member here . Having a tutorial that was posted here hacked up and redistributed without giving proper credit.
 
Originally posted by alamocdc

I believe it was Solomon who said, "There is nothing new under the sun.";)
Click to expand...

Billy, I must respectfully disagree.

If this is the case, and there really is nothing new under the son, then why is the patent office still open?
 
Sorry but I still have another thought. I have read quite a bit of both threads on this issue. And I do not see people having a problem with there idea being "borrowed" or copied. there problem is when someone takes there idea and tries to claim they came up with it. Certainly if they try to claim it before a large audience. I think few people here would think that is right. I also think few of us would say that is what this group is about. But sharing ideas here also causes our members to be vulnerable to those that would claim there ideas as there own. Does it fall within the mission statement of this group to protect those that come here and share? If so then how?
Gary, Lou and Ed. I ask you specifically to either support of refute what I have said here about what the Issue is as you see it. at this time my statement does not carry much weight as it is only my understanding or "Opinion".
 
More important than the ideas we borrow/steal/improve are the friendships developed through this site. For me, I've had the good fortune to correspond and meet a number of members through questions, pen swaps, material trades and group buys. If we were to total all the lost sales from ideas that were copied I can't imagine the dollars would add up to much. A talented penmaker will probably not copy an idea. An untalented one will do a poor copy job. Keep it open. There are other restricted sites and private email clubs for those who for whatever reason choose not to share. The mission for this site should include a warm welcome to newcomers as well as a place for those who choose to teach.
 
Originally posted by Mudder

I told Ed that he is sworn to secrecy
Click to expand...

Scott you must be joking. Have you seen Ed's post numbers? There are only five members that have posted more that Ed. He talks more than a blonde at a beauty salon![:0]

Mike
 
I agree with Alan and I would allow access to only to participating members and to any forum that discusses any topics that are not public domain</u> and not just someone who registers. There is no reason that if there is value in a forum that it should not be limited.

I no longer post on this forum and it has nothing to do with stealing ideas and all to do with people not participating or adding any value.
 
Originally posted by jeff


The bottom line is that I'm a little saddened by the idea that some of our best penmakers don't want to show their best work here. Possibly making the forum private is just my feeble attempt to provide a "safer" environment for continued sharing.
Click to expand...


Jeff,

I believe that this site, along with several other factors, is a major contributor to the advancement that the pen turning industry has seen over the last few years. This ability to bounce ideas off of each other is one of the things that has advanced this art so rapidly. I, also, do not feel that creativity should be reserved. To do so would be to stifle it.

Nevertheless, after four years of rapid growth, a watershed has been reached. Many turners here are at or beyond a jumping off point in the art. It would be unfair to continue ask them to contribute everything they know to the general public, or admonish them for not doing so.

Unfortunately the theft of ideas has only begun. I am not talking about taking a concept and putting your own twist on it. I am referring to outright plagiarism. As the pens here continue to improve, you will begin to see the larger manufacturers start to target this and the few other sites for “copyable†ideas. (Just think of the uproar it would cause if say, Mont Blanc put out a pen that was first shown here.) Think that is incredulous? Look at other craft industries. It is already a well-known practice. It just has not happened here yet. Why? Because individual turners were â€" well, not up to their standards. That is now changing.

Over all, I would suggest you keep the forum as it is. However, if you want the creativity to be continued here on a higher level, you may want to consider a separate hidden forum or room. A special “members only†section if you will. The criteria for entry can be worked out, but it should involve a certain level of acumen and expertise.

OK enough of my two cents.
 
I believe that the only forum that should be open to the public should be SOYP. there is enough discussion in there to attract new members.
I still think that if you don't post, say within a month or two, then your membership should lapse.
 
Originally posted by BRobbins629

The mission for this site should include a warm welcome to newcomers as well as a place for those who choose to teach.
Click to expand...

With Bruce's consent, I think that this would make an excellent header BANNER for the IAP home page.

-Peter-:)
 
Originally posted by MLKWoodWorking

Originally posted by Mudder

I told Ed that he is sworn to secrecy
Click to expand...

Scott you must be joking. Have you seen Ed's post numbers? There are only five members that have posted more that Ed. He talks more than a blonde at a beauty salon![:0]

Mike
Click to expand...

And I will tell you EVERYTHING I know, EXCEPT those things that have been said to me IN CONFIDENCE and a few of Dawn's gems of creativity. I DO have ethics, I WISH everyone did (This statement is not meant to reflect on ANY one here!!)
 
NB: The following is not based on any empiricial information. It is 100% my personal opinion.

I voted no only because there isn't an option for "Hell no!" :D

The topic at issue in the referenced thread has been discussed here and in other locales at length.
It was a topic of discussion in Woodwork magazine for roughly three months.

There was a comment Ed made in the other thread WRT the tax man which evoked a response from Jeff:
Originally posted by ed4copies
Before you put ANYTHING on this site, think about the "Possible downside".
FWIW!!!
Click to expand...
And Jeff wrote:
Well there's a shot in the arm to participation.
Click to expand...

Ed's statement was related to the fact that statements you post may used elsewhere so if you're giving out private information just be aware of the reality.
In this day and age, nothing we say online is really separated from our physical lives any more.

With respect to penturning, pencrafting, and artistic and intellectual property, I believe the reality is this:
IF someone has something they don't want to share the best protection is saying nothing.
;) For the non-computer geeks: that actually does say "saying nothing" in a white font! [}:)]

I'll use a specific example of someone showing their work and not posting how it's done: Eagle's Inlay Cross.
I know how it's done! First time I saw one, I knew how it was done. I told him how he does it.
Over time, we've talked about how it's done. And I've learned better ways to do it with Eagle's input.
Will I ever share that info with anyone -- NO. It's not my place to say how he does it.
However, there is at least ONE other person who posts a cross inlay pen that appears to me to be as good as those Eagle makes. IF he says how he does it, that's his business but so far he hasn't.
No one, to my knowledge, has complained regarding that lack of shared information.
I'm not including the laser cut blanks in my consideration; in my opinion, they are a totally separate product.

People will steal/borrow/modify/obfuscate/transform your ideas. Sometimes, they'll give credit; sometimes not.
The inspiration for my Harlequin came from Ron McIntire's "Morning After".
I wrote that several times when I first made a few pens like that;
I've stopped saying it because I now simply make what I like without considering where the initial thought came from.

I wrote a "Celtic knot" pictorial of How I make the knot even though George Bucher (Texatdurango) wrote a better one.
And, I told people where to find his and some other one I don't recall -- it's posted somewhere in a Knot thread and can be looked up. I wrote it because I felt there was a need for another one. I didn't take credit for it as an original idea -- that'd certainly have been wrong. However, the morning Bernie T (Brokenbit), Norm B (Bluewing92) & I were in my shop at the Table saw and Bernie set the blade to cut part way thru was the same morning Steven J (Skiprat) posted his tip about using the bandsaw and not cutting all the way through.
Imagine what would've happened if we posted our "original idea" that day without looking at the forum?
You think TSWHTF?!? :D

Maybe I'm different than many others -- I can look at almost any of furniture and know how it's made and how to make it. I've got a pretty good mechanical mind and am more than a casual reader of building techniques. However, seeing what you've made doesn't mean I will make a good copy. I can copy any design the Gisi's, Cueman, Yoyospin, DCB, Texatdurango, or anyone else can make -- but it doesn't mean I'll implement it as well as they have. Therein lies the difference in value that matters wrt price.
Ethically, I will never take credit for anything I didn't come up with on my own (if I ever do an original design, I'll let y'all know). However, those who will, will.

Personally, I don't think there's a section of the forum that should be closed to anyone. Our costs are not really a mystery. Anyone can find out what the wholesale price of almost anything is. Getting thru the door to actually get parts is only a minor step. Having the talent to make something beautiful is another matter altogether.

Stick a fork in me, I'm done. :D;)
 
Originally posted by ed4copies

And I will tell you EVERYTHING I know, EXCEPT those things that have been said to me IN CONFIDENCE and a few of Dawn's gems of creativity. I DO have ethics, I WISH everyone did (This statement is not meant to reflect on ANY one here!!)
Click to expand...

Now Ed I never said you were not a stand up guy. It was just a lot of fun calling you a blonde in a beauty salon.

Ok everyone, think back to the mug/mug photo. [:0]

Mike
 
I am very mixed about this topic, I see VERY valid points on both sides of the "isle". I am a member of another site that has "special rooms" for members, but only certain members and I think that type of system makes the site seem very cliquish. I don't like the idea of potential customers coming here are reading all about our cost and how we price our pens. I think that is very bad for business. We don't have the IAP logo on our site, because it is "encouraged" that it link back to IAP. I understand that it is NOT a requirement that is does, and I do understand why it should, but as stated above I don't want customers here seeing the business side of this addiction.
I could see leaving the SYOP and even the "Other things we make" forums open to the public, but closing everything else. I would also suggest that if you are not an active member, your membership goes inactive after a certain amount of time. I was just looking at the membership list out of 312 pages, 82 pages had members that had made more then 10 posts (1223 people), 32 that had at least 100(467 people), and 160 pages of no posts ever (2400 people), so how many contributing members do we really have??? Now just because they haven't made any or very many posts DOES NOT mean that they are not here lurking and gleaning from the contributing members. I think that by limiting access to all parts of the site except for "SYOP" and "Other Things we make" to only active members, could deter not all of but some of the "stealing" of ideas and concepts. The "SYOP" and "Other Things we make" had enough info and feel of the site for a good test drive.

Please remember this is only one of my opinions. I really don't think that there is a right or wrong answer, we have to figure out what we can or can not live with for ourselves.
 
As many of you know, my father died just this past Jan 1, 2008. He was buried with one of my segmented pens in his folded hands. This pen was my fourth try at segmenting, and was realtively simple, made with walnut and maple. It has a section of walnut about 1/4" long on each end of the barrel (it was a Sierra), with maple for the main body. The maple was further segmented from end to ends with a simple x pattern that did not reach the sides like a celtic knot would. Just plain simple lines. I had worked on this design for a while before I made it. The pen was finished with Friction Polish. It, by my standards of today was poorly designed and poorly turned.

My father loved that pen. Whenever other people would see my Celtic knots, my herringbones, My inlays, my brass or aluminum ssegmented pens, or any of the other later, greater pens, He would alwasy bring that pen out of his pocket and say that while my other pens were nice, this was the best yet, because he could look at it with all of its flaws and imperfections, and say that this was one of my ideas, and one of my designs, and it shows where I came from, and what level I have obtained to now because of IAP. I felt Okay with this, and then one day I was looking thru some pictures in the albums and came across almost the same pen style, made much earlier than mine, with different woods and different dimensions, but the same idea.

I felt bad, because here was my Dad saying it was my idea, and yet someone else had already done somthing like it before. He still has that pen in his hands, and No I never told him about the other turners pen.

Now, when I do segmenting, if someone asks me how I get my ideas, I tell them that I look at a lot of pictures, find something that intrigues me, try to figure out how it is done, and then change it or modify it to get a look I like. So there is probably not much new in the line of design of pens by segmenting and such, but there is a lot in craftsmanship and marketing.

I still think part of this forum should be open for the casual lookers, but I think part of this should be for contributing members only.

Rob
 
I think this is one of those topics that will never be resolved...seriously. In a week or two, we'll have 30 or 40 pages of posts, with everyone saying one of two things...

Yes, I think we should limit membership to those who meet a certain requirement (to be determined)
or
No, I think that the forum should be open to all

Just as in politics, it's nearly impossible to convince people who are steadfastly refusing to change their opinion. You know my opinion - I'm a free-exchange of ideas idealist! I know that it would take a very persuasive argument to make me change mine - it can be done, but it's not likely to happen..

So, are we going to resolve anything by continuing to say the same things? likely not. Should we continue? Perhaps...that ties in with the free exchange of ideas concept...but very few opinions are likely to change.

Some people want to be teachers, some don't...if everyone did, we'd have an even tighter job market for people like me! :)
 
Originally posted by Mudder

Originally posted by alamocdc

I believe it was Solomon who said, "There is nothing new under the sun.";)
Click to expand...

Billy, I must respectfully disagree.

If this is the case, and there really is nothing new under the son, then why is the patent office still open?
Click to expand...

No problem at all, Scott. But to answer your question, because of the many variations on other ideas that just happen to be different enough to be rationalized as original. Now I realize that this may be a bit of an over generalization, but is it really when you truly think about it? If I have a patent on a machine that makes... let's just say bushings... and you have a patent on a machine that also makes bushings, but they don't make them the same way, is it really different? The end result is the same, we just got to the same end by different methods. The patent or intellectual property idea is simply our way of trying to protect one's monetary (or other) worth (and I'm not saying I disagree w/it).

Was I the first to use automotive paint to color PR? Maybe not, but I had not seen or read of anyone else using it three years ago and that's all I used until a few months ago. Does that make my method better or really any different than anyone else's? Not at all and we arrive at the same end... colored PR. Does using my method allow me to achieve a different look than the others? Possibly. Is it something I wish I'd never mentioned so I could keep a corner on it? Nope. It certainly isn't the cheapest method for coloring PR so I doubt many would ever venture there. I just happened to have a stockpile of it and I like to experiment.

My point is just that I just because I use a different method, product or technique to arrive at the same end as someone else doesn't make it "new". It just makes it different.
 
Originally posted by great12b4ever


I felt Okay with this, and then one day I was looking thru some pictures in the albums and came across almost the same pen style, made much earlier than mine, with different woods and different dimensions, but the same idea.

I felt bad, because here was my Dad saying it was my idea, and yet someone else had already done somthing like it before. He still has that pen in his hands, and No I never told him about the other turners pen.

Rob
Click to expand...

Rob,
I have been following this thread and honestly have not been compelled to throw my opinion out until I read your post.
You brought up a wonderful point that seems to have been missed so far.

You felt compelled to create a design that when completed was a design that you hadn't seen before and this allowed you a feeling of accomplishment and your father with a very special pen to show off his sons art work with! He was very proud of this design that YOU had created and cherished it.

In my opinion YOU created the design. Then after you created it and your father had already enjoyed it's uniqueness you found another one that was similar. So? You hadn't seen the other pen before you made it. Thus it is your design and always will be your fathers design!

I hope that you understand what I am trying to point out.

I guess the point I am trying to make to every existing pen artist and any future pen artists is this: Be proud of every pen you make, and know that regardless of what it looks like in the end YOU created the finished work of art. No one else did. They finished their own work of art.


As far as the original question here:
I have sent countless e-mails to other turners trying desperately to get them to realize that potential customers are here enjoying the IAP site as we are. With this in mind it should be common sense not to post prices of hardware or what you sold a pen for or what blanks cost. I decided about a year ago that it was a loosing battle to get posters to realize this and stopped sending e-mails out.
I believe that any area that someone may decide to post a cost should be a "members only".....Why would we as a pen artist want potential customers be able to browse the "Individual ads" or the "Business ads"? This makes absolutely no sense at all.
 
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
It is almost a 40 / 60 split at the moment. But that was for the site to be ENTIRELY for members.
I think that it would look very much different if it was PART private, looking at the replies and comments so far.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom