Made in the USA Pen Kits

[Parson]

I've a good mind to work on a 10,000 piece order for a quality US made pen kit. I'm betting I could get the price low enough to make it attractive.

 

[Florida Marine]

I would pay for a US made anything.

I am a jingoist, something about being 4th generation military that does it for me.

Know there are other nationalities represented here, but I am an American snob...not apologetic about it.

Sean

 

[tbroye]

GE just signed a many hundreds of billions of dollars contract with China to move the HQ of one of their divisions to China. Good old american Company, hope they go under, let china bail them out. Government regulations have a big part to do with this both Nationaly and in certain States it's not just OSHA and the EPA there many other agencys involved.

 

[NewLondon88]

I'd be in favor of assessing huge tariffs on products that are imported
by companies who used to manufacture them here.
They used to make them here, they made money when they made them
here.. what changed?

 

[PenPal]

Hey Guys,

Dig deep and show your all AMERICAN generosity and start paying teachers a reasonable salary, lower the class numbers, increase teaching staff. My daughter on holiday from Utah the most depressing of States in this regard as a ten year teacher with several American Degrees including her masters receives about the same hourly rate as a cleaner does over here. She works longer hours and is highly respected teaching middle school. Try using Biros for one year that should do it. My mates wife gets 350.00 dollars a day full time casual teaching 6hr days here.

Now my non inflamatory remark is to contrast with lets buy American remarks being churned under the heading of Rolls Royce pen kits for VW prices. In an ideal world we would support all our fellow countrymen over and above others. I personally have tried to support American businesses with mixed results. Above that I am Patriotic as the next guy.

Love the title IAP the International means just that to me, a fair go for all without predudice.

Like you I follow the for sale items on the forum watch the frenetic replies when prices are low or even free, not one potential buyer in ten puts in extra for receiving extra in fact from my reading folks look for free extras as well. My mate from Canada obtained timber felt like sharing at a nominal price received heavy criticism when he offered the timber at a nominal cost on the forum. A guy a member from France had the same result in France why not give the timber to us etc.

All around the world we seek out a bargain bulk buying a first obvious one on the Forum.
Costco opened here last week there was a few demonstrators at the opening imagine what they were saying.

Absolute bias becomes hatred. I speak of my hobby Pen Turning, my purchases are infinitely smaller than all the wanna be professionals. Thankful for the business people who support the IAP and share their knowledge, time and money with us. Examine as so called Hobbyists the negative effect on the economy when we sell product in our own countries
at venues, businesses etc. Is our first thought for us or others jobs,security of tenure.

In Australia there are no manufacturers of Pen Kits so I buy Chinese made Taiwan made kits
if in America or another country you produce kits of same or better quality the choice is mine where I buy.

I do hope the United States economy is resolved in the affirmative soon so many friends of mine are suffering. Archival quality pen kits are never going to be cheap enough for everyone.

At our Wood Guild meeting Wednesday this week our guest was a man who is University trained as a Furniture maker, our Parliament House is a extraordinary tribute to Australian Timbers throughout and all internal features made to world standards. Items are falling apart literally as the best glues in the world from twenty odd years ago are hardening, crystalising and literally falling apart.The jointing is still immaculate.

Best of good fortune seeking the end of the rainbow pot of gold with pen kits cheap as and sold finished for the most return, personally I will continue to share as I do now in fact a general discussion on pen kits is healthy, Ask yourself which car you drive and why the facts will be obvious. Remember my first Car an 1927 A Model Tourer bought by me in the 1950,s loved it. There were no real Australian made cars then, now we have GMH, Ford Etc
Japanese manufacturers in Australia.

Good luck with made in the USA. like you we are mostly descended from Immigrants from all over viva la difference.

Kindest regards Peter.

 

[workinforwood]

America still leads the world in manufacturing. China workers are much cheaper but one American worker produces 80% more goods. The reason companies leave is soley due to taxation. This is a global economy and there's no stopping that. We have highest corporate taxes. Business is to make money. Businesses don't pay taxes too in reality that passes on to consumers. So if u make 8 widgets for every 2 from china but u pay 0 tax in China and 40% in usa, you can't compete.

Look at how they want to tax oil companies more money because they have 50 billion profit and they claim it will lower gas prices. The thinking is companies want to pay less taxes so they will lower the prices to accomplish a smaller tax bill. That's backwards thinking insanity. With reality thinking, companies don't pay taxes consumers do, the extra taxes will simply raise prices.

 

[sbell111]

I'd be in favor of assessing huge tariffs on products that are imported
by companies who used to manufacture them here.
They used to make them here, they made money when they made them
here.. what changed?

Part of what changed is that they couldn't compete on price with goods made outside of the country. Also, we have to consider that many of these companies sell their items not just in the US. Why wouldn't an international company chose to manufacture it's products wherever that it most benefits the bottom line? It wouldn't. In fact, it couldn't, both because it is competing against goods made at lower cost and because the company has a fiduciary responsibility to it's shareholders to maximize revenue.

 

[Russianwolf]

America still leads the world in manufacturing. China workers are much cheaper but one American worker produces 80% more goods. The reason companies leave is soley due to taxation. This is a global economy and there's no stopping that. We have highest corporate taxes. Business is to make money. Businesses don't pay taxes too in reality that passes on to consumers. So if u make 8 widgets for every 2 from china but u pay 0 tax in China and 40% in usa, you can't compete.

Let's say you make $1 net per widget made in the US and $2 net for a widget made in China. That would be $8 and $4 respectively. After taxes it's $4.8 versus $4. I'd move back to the US, especially if my main sales market is the US. Easier to keep sales up if you are employing the people that buy your product. Lay them off and suddenly they can't buy any product.

Look at how they want to tax oil companies more money because they have 50 billion profit and they claim it will lower gas prices. The thinking is companies want to pay less taxes so they will lower the prices to accomplish a smaller tax bill. That's backwards thinking insanity. With reality thinking, companies don't pay taxes consumers do, the extra taxes will simply raise prices.

Oil and Gas are a bad example for this. The prices of which the companies have next to no control over as they are sold on the commodities market and the prices get set by the buyers who base it on supply and demand.

Also the reality is that the corporate tax rate in China is 25%. In the US its 0-35% with most corporations being near the lower end by using the loopholes. Add in to that that in the US the Corps don't have to deal with the massive corruption problems that they have in most of the Asian countries, and it starts making less and less sense as to why they would move if solely based on tax reasons.

 

[Leviblue]

Great posts and insights. But back to the topic.

What's the status of the USA made kits? I'm waiting to see what becomes available.

 

[NewLondon88]

.

What's the status of the USA made kits?

oh, we're just waiting for one of us to come up with a couple of hundred
thousand dollars in play money to have some made.. :tongue:

 

[maxwell_smart007]

Fair warning - any more politics in this thread, and I'll lock it.

We've been down this road often enough that you should know that politics are not allowed - threads like this are allowed to remain only so long as politics are avoided.

I've deleted the posts that violate the politics rule, so please avoid discussing politics in this (and all) threads.

Andrew
assistant moderator

 

[Texatdurango]

I'm sorry but I can't help but wonder how many here would really pay more for their kits just because they were made in the USA. Saying and doing are two different things.

The reason I ask is that I just did a little group buy where we got 25% off the price of kits PLUS an additional 13% on top of that so for an example a $10 kit became $6.50. That was a real 35% reduction and yet as folks were signing up for the buy I got a message from one member asking....."Was that was the best they could do?" He didn't sign up, I guess he thought the prices were too steep!

Once we got things rolling and I was sending out amounts due one participant sent a message saying I had made an error. Seems that when you apply 13% to the entire order rather than 13% on each kit then adding things up you get a different price depending on whether you round up or down and in their order the difference was 83 cents and they thought it worthy of sending a message!

Using those two examples, I can only image a similar situation where we ADDED 35% or more because we were dealing with a MADE IN USA company. I seriously doubt there would have been as many participants!

Sitting all the regulations and stiff tooling costs aside, I just don't see it ever happening because their simply wouldn't be a market.

 

[workinforwood]

.

What's the status of the USA made kits?

oh, we're just waiting for one of us to come up with a couple of hundred
thousand dollars in play money to have some made.. :tongue:

lol

 

[marksman]

Great discussion. One thing that has not been mentioned throughout this entire post is the ability to maintain a stricter quality control on parts that are manufactured here in the US. Maybe that can be done while manufacturing overseas by hiring a local product manager, but I believe that manufacturing in your own shop and having suppliers that are a day away is much better quality control than flying to China once every month or so. Just wanted to add that in.

 

[sbell111]

QC is determined by procedures implemented, not country. A company that exports it's manufacturing would not necessarily change any of it's QC processes.

 

[marksman]

Exactly, thanks for pointing that out.

 

[TellicoTurning]

My wife and I have driven imports as well as domestics (I drive a VW GTI, she drives a 1999 Caravan), but I am ready to give my auto $ all to Detroit the next time. Besides the very relaible Caravan, we also had a 2001 PT Cruiser, a really good car (gave it to my daughter when she graduated from college.) I've never driven Fords, but seriously considering a new Explorer. I hate to see ALL manufacturing leave this country. Some is inevitable, some will never come back, however, some can be saved.

Just my $.03 (adjusted due to federal bloat and excess).

Be careful with the Explorer... while I loved mine .. we had it on a lease and at the end of the lease it was worth only about 1/2 the residual value... also Yahoo just had an article that Explorer was one of the used cars to avoid.... I don't know the full story behind their evaluation, but that was the story... all that said, I drive a 1991 Ford Ranger pickup... it's not the best looking truck in the lot, it took a bump in the rear end that drove it into the rear of another car a year before I bought it, so the front bumper has a slight bend on the driver's side and so does the front fender... otherwise it runs like a champ and has since I got it. If I put about a grand into it to fix the bumper, fender, driver's door lock, tail gate release latch, pull the gas tank and put a new send/receiver unit to determine the gas level in the tank, fix the small transmission leak and try to figure where the little oil drip is in the engine, put a new radio in (the one I have works, but sometimes if you hit a bump the volume will sky rocket or will drop below human hearing level) and here of late, I have a heat shield over the exhaust manifold that rattles.... (LOML thinks we look and sound like the Beverly Hillbillies as we traverse the back roads of Tennessee)... I would have an almost new 20 year old truck with only 158K + miles on it. :laugh::laugh:

 

[NorCali]

My first post in IAP

I am new to pen making. The first thing I decided was to find the best quality pen kits possible made in the USA. I ran a couple of internet searches and still have not found a USA supplier. Eventually today yet another search found this thread.
I would settle for another nation with Environmental and Humane practices in place as well. Paying more for that would be a price I would have to pay.
Back in the day I was doing QA for a diode manufacturer in the good old Silicone Valley. One of my jobs was to apply gold plating the the leads as the final step in manufacturing. Extremely dangerous as the fumes from the plating process are lethal to humans. I was not very good at it but it was done on a special ~4x8 bench with hood. The batches were thousands at a time in small baths built into the bench. This is why I believe that manufacturing pen kits in the USA could be done in a small office/workshop without a huge cost.

Quality being the same:
USA = Better for the environment and humanity!

Cost is the side effect of all the EPA and OSHA regulations, but if you support cleaner air and water you would pay the difference.

Like most people of the USA I have fallen into the trap of searching for the best price given same or better quality. This obviously takes us offshore as many other nations have no or limited regulations restricting companies from dumping hazardous materials, or maintaining human safety.

-RichW

 

[khallpens]

not all ways the truth find markman here on iap he has his own line of pen kits made here in the USA.

 

[WWAtty]

All the USA pride and good intentions aside, I think any effort to manufacture pen kits here would quickly become mired in regulatory problems. In my engineering days ('90s), the electronics mfr. I worked for considered etching its own circuit boards. The company's goal was to rein in the long lead times of overseas board mfrs. by making them stateside. However, after discovering the almost insurmountable EPA and OSHA regulations surrounding the use and disposal of various chemicals and copper salts, we gave up the idea and continued off-shoring them like most everyone else in the industry.

Pen kits, with the different platings and metals involved, would no doubt face great regulatory scrutiny as well. Just the disposal of heavy metal byproducts, acids and other chemicals would likely be an EPA nightmare. Add employees and you have OSHA coming into the mix.

However, a small craftsman operation, making unique, handmade hardware, could be viable. Perhaps a skilled silversmith, jeweler or the like. The cost would be through the roof, of course. But think of the beautiful, one-of-a-kind hardware that could come out of such an operation. The mechanisms would probably have to be the usual off-the-shelf components, but the caps, clips, bands, etc. could certainly be custom.

 

[Smitty37]

All the USA pride and good intentions aside, I think any effort to manufacture pen kits here would quickly become mired in regulatory problems. In my engineering days ('90s), the electronics mfr. I worked for considered etching its own circuit boards. The company's goal was to rein in the long lead times of overseas board mfrs. by making them stateside. However, after discovering the almost insurmountable EPA and OSHA regulations surrounding the use and disposal of various chemicals and copper salts, we gave up the idea and continued off-shoring them like most everyone else in the industry.

Pen kits, with the different platings and metals involved, would no doubt face great regulatory scrutiny as well. Just the disposal of heavy metal byproducts, acids and other chemicals would likely be an EPA nightmare. Add employees and you have OSHA coming into the mix.

However, a small craftsman operation, making unique, handmade hardware, could be viable. Perhaps a skilled silversmith, jeweler or the like. The cost would be through the roof, of course. But think of the beautiful, one-of-a-kind hardware that could come out of such an operation. The mechanisms would probably have to be the usual off-the-shelf components, but the caps, clips, bands, etc. could certainly be custom.

Stainless Steel now made in the USA are competitive in price with comparable kits are available from a member here.

 

[U-Turn]

Constant and Mark are making a very nice pen - in his shop. HUGE machine. Take a look at Lazerlinez.

 

[dogcatcher]

America still leads the world in manufacturing. China workers are much cheaper but one American worker produces 80% more goods. The reason companies leave is soley due to taxation. This is a global economy and there's no stopping that. We have highest corporate taxes. Business is to make money. Businesses don't pay taxes too in reality that passes on to consumers. So if u make 8 widgets for every 2 from china but u pay 0 tax in China and 40% in usa, you can't compete.

The corporate tax rate in China is 25%, the US is 35%. Does the song and dance routine about taxes really sound right? No it is about cheap labor, a few dollars a day compared to a few hundred dollars a day is the issue.

 

[Smitty37]

America still leads the world in manufacturing. China workers are much cheaper but one American worker produces 80% more goods. The reason companies leave is soley due to taxation. This is a global economy and there's no stopping that. We have highest corporate taxes. Business is to make money. Businesses don't pay taxes too in reality that passes on to consumers. So if u make 8 widgets for every 2 from china but u pay 0 tax in China and 40% in usa, you can't compete.

The corporate tax rate in China is 25%, the US is 35%. Does the song and dance routine about taxes really sound right? No it is about cheap labor, a few dollars a day compared to a few hundred dollars a day is the issue.

You are correct that taxes are not the biggest issue although at 40% higher our world's highest corporate tax rate is a factor.. Actually cheap labor isn't either (there are many countries with lower labor costs than China). The biggest culpret is, in my opinion, regulation. Recently the CEO of Intel gave a speech where he said that building a factory in the USA would cost a billion dollars more than building it off shore. The cause was not the cost of labor but the cost of regulation. The USA (a.k.a the land of the free) recently surpassed India as the most highly regulated industrial country in the world. Complying with regulations (EPA/OSHA/LABOR/CLEAN AIR/CLEAN WATER/HAZARDOUS WASTE,ETC.) is far more costly to many manufacturing businesses than corporate taxes.

By the way, China will surpass the USA in manufacturing sometime this decade and will steadily pull away from us in the next. Europe taken as a whole also now approaches or exceeds US manufacturing although being much smaller - no individual European country approaches us.

The movement pushing us toward "green" energy will, in my opinion, also result in higher costs and more manufacturing leaving the USA. We built our nation into the worlds leading manufacturer on low cost energy and a business friendly environment. Over the course of my lifetime we have been destroying both the result is absolutely predictable.

Companies exist to make a profit, whether they be a Corporate Giant or a Mom & Pop ice cream stand - if the don't make a profit they either go out of business or move their business elsewhere. In today's world of easy communications and fast shipping that usually means going elsewhere.

 

[Ted]

I am certainly willing to pay more for components made domestically, as I am for everything else that I purchase. It's a matter more of economics than political sensibility, though I do have my loyalties. Having been in one business or another all of my life and having lived through several recessions (and having grown up with my parents' first-hand accounts of living through the world depression of the 1930's), the inescapable conclusion I've reached is that if my customers have no income, they cannot buy my products.

Environmental and labor regulations are not causes, they are effects. They are nothing more than the visible result of deferred amortization of costs inherent to industrial production. We hear a lot of double-speak that "high tech" manufacturing doesn't qualify as industrial production but that's just sophistry and not to be taken seriously. I agree that environmental enforcement actions are often far more heavy-handed than some situations may call for but the lack of toxic material containment back when we were in the early stages of industrialization only deferred the true cost of production until the individuals responsible were no longer available to pay them. We're all paying now for the prosperity of our parents and grandparents.

Asia will pay the same price when their labor force is decimated by health problems resulting from exposure to toxic materials just as ours has been. Economically speaking, their comparative advantage does not lie mainly in taxation or labor but in subsidy and cost deferral- a temporary advantage.

Does anyone here know why Ideal turned their clip production over to International? I don't but I'd be interested to know the story, simply as a study in economics. I won't go into detail about "globalization" because it always gets political at some point but there's nothing political about the basic economic fact that without aggregate income in a target market there can be no marketplace. The current notion of prosperity though "trade" does not depict any sort of sustainable model- the goods we export are no longer primarily daily-use products and do not represent a persistent opportunity for mass employment.

Anyone here remember what happened with Port Orford cedar back in the 80"s? We allowed the export of logs instead of lumber and where are the mills now? Was our willingness to allow the export of raw materials matched by those of our trading "partners" that possessed a similar level of industrial development? Had any raw material export controls been in place, overharvesting would have been severely limited by processing capacity and value-added sourcing costs.

I'll end by saying that I would never have purchased my wife's treasured Mont Blanc pens a few years ago if I'd known about the Edison Pen Company or many of the makers that are members here at IAP (now, I suppose, I'd have to stretch my skills and make her daily-use pens myself.) Oh, and also to beg your pardon for the bit of a rant.

 

[cwolfs69]

Mmmmm.....patriotism is great, but we have to be honest and realist at the same time.
Whether kits were made in USA ( America is actually a continent not a country :wink or UK or any other 'first world' country, the price would definetely be more than a 'few bucks more'. As long as people want value for money, then we don't stand a chance of seeing them made here.

I personally hope they never get made in any first world country as that would mean I'd have to give up the hobby as I couldn't afford it.:wink:

Just my opinion....so don't shoot me:biggrin:

USA is not a country either. it is a compact between th 50 countries (Virginia, texas, Maine, South Carolina, etc) that make up the USA. The 50 are all soverign, it is not.

Sent from my Galaxi via forerunner

 

[TellicoTurning]

Made in the USA? You might find that the question may not mean what you think it really means.

Made in Australia? might also be a similar question. I have quite a few friends in the high end garment industry which manufactures Made in Australia clothing. The whole shirt is made in Main Land China except the buttons and button holes. According to WTO and Australian law definition only the last 5% needs to be assembled and finished in Australia for the item to be called made in Australia. They sew in the buttons and put on the button holes, give it a wash and iron, then put the "Made in Australia" sticker on it.

Vehicles are the same. I found it interesting when one of the high end car wheel manufactures in South Australia went broke and was bought out by it's biggest customer - Harley Davidson Motor cycles. The spokesman for Harley Davidson said they produced the worlds best wheels are very competitively priced and they couldn't afford not to have this business go under. This only showed to me that one of the US made bikes had Australian wheels on them.

There are several things which make it hard for a totally made US pen kit. You might find that one day someone will call it a US made pen kit but only the last 5% is done in the US (all the components sources overseas are put into the bag in the US and a made in USA sticker on it).

The factors preventing this as highlight by previous post include high wages, EPS (Erin Brockovich - hexavalent chromium in drinking water issues). But another factor which I think is missed is the disparity of scrap metal price and new billet prices.

Pen parts are manufactured from solid brass tubes. Even the brass tubes we use are not extruded from a machine that way, it is actually machined out a solid rod of brass tubes. In China and Taiwan, the waste (scrap) is sold back to the manufactures of the solid brass rods at a 20 - 30% price difference.

So if buy it in solid rod for $10/lb they will buy it back at $7/lb. This compares to us in the western world (I am not currently educated in the current price for brass) would buy the rods for about $25/lb and only get $2/lb as scrap. Pen component making is a very wasteful procedure so scrap metal prices are a important part of the equation. Ever turned a bowl and see all the wood shavings on the floor?

This is just another factor that we in the West seem to forget about.

There is a lot more too it as well but I will stop ranting now - Australia Too has become a non-manufacturing country, we are now nothing but the worlds mine pit and raw agricultural producer.

Using this argument and if I remember my customs regulations - remember I've been out of the industry for 6 or 7 years - the regulations say something to the effect that if an article is significantly changed in it's appearance by a process, then that article can be marked as "made in ***"... so if you take a Chinese/Taiwan Pen kit, An Australian wood blank, and so significantly change the looks of the items... it's a made in USA pen... or in Skip's case, "made in UK"....

 

[joefyffe]

Don't worry Steve! If things don't change, soon, we may not be a first world country. Then China can start sending their factories and JOBS to us!! Sarcasm intended. I'd definitely be willing to pay a bit more for home grown components. :wink:

Mmmmm.....patriotism is great, but we have to be honest and realist at the same time.
Whether kits were made in USA ( America is actually a continent not a country :wink or UK or any other 'first world' country, the price would definetely be more than a 'few bucks more'. As long as people want value for money, then we don't stand a chance of seeing them made here.

I personally hope they never get made in any first world country as that would mean I'd have to give up the hobby as I couldn't afford it.:wink:

Just my opinion....so don't shoot me:biggrin:

 

[Smitty37]

There are existing laws regarding how much USA content is required to use Made in USA on the label. I have not looked into it but I think it is fairly high, but it might vary depending on the product.

Made in the USA? You might find that the question may not mean what you think it really means.

Made in Australia? might also be a similar question. I have quite a few friends in the high end garment industry which manufactures Made in Australia clothing. The whole shirt is made in Main Land China except the buttons and button holes. According to WTO and Australian law definition only the last 5% needs to be assembled and finished in Australia for the item to be called made in Australia. They sew in the buttons and put on the button holes, give it a wash and iron, then put the "Made in Australia" sticker on it.

Vehicles are the same. I found it interesting when one of the high end car wheel manufactures in South Australia went broke and was bought out by it's biggest customer - Harley Davidson Motor cycles. The spokesman for Harley Davidson said they produced the worlds best wheels are very competitively priced and they couldn't afford not to have this business go under. This only showed to me that one of the US made bikes had Australian wheels on them.

There are several things which make it hard for a totally made US pen kit. You might find that one day someone will call it a US made pen kit but only the last 5% is done in the US (all the components sources overseas are put into the bag in the US and a made in USA sticker on it).

The factors preventing this as highlight by previous post include high wages, EPS (Erin Brockovich - hexavalent chromium in drinking water issues). But another factor which I think is missed is the disparity of scrap metal price and new billet prices.

Pen parts are manufactured from solid brass tubes. Even the brass tubes we use are not extruded from a machine that way, it is actually machined out a solid rod of brass tubes. In China and Taiwan, the waste (scrap) is sold back to the manufactures of the solid brass rods at a 20 - 30% price difference.

So if buy it in solid rod for $10/lb they will buy it back at $7/lb. This compares to us in the western world (I am not currently educated in the current price for brass) would buy the rods for about $25/lb and only get $2/lb as scrap. Pen component making is a very wasteful procedure so scrap metal prices are a important part of the equation. Ever turned a bowl and see all the wood shavings on the floor?

This is just another factor that we in the West seem to forget about.

There is a lot more too it as well but I will stop ranting now - Australia Too has become a non-manufacturing country, we are now nothing but the worlds mine pit and raw agricultural producer.

Using this argument and if I remember my customs regulations - remember I've been out of the industry for 6 or 7 years - the regulations say something to the effect that if an article is significantly changed in it's appearance by a process, then that article can be marked as "made in ***"... so if you take a Chinese/Taiwan Pen kit, An Australian wood blank, and so significantly change the looks of the items... it's a made in USA pen... or in Skip's case, "made in UK"....

 

[Steve Busey]

Constant and Mark are making a very nice pen - in his shop. HUGE machine. Take a look at Lazerlinez.

I had a chance to go visit Constant's shop last weekend. That is one impressive system! And the stainless steel pen kit prototype he showed me has the best feeling click mechanism I've encountered - looking forward to the availability of these kits!



He told me it was OK to post these pics of him at his new machine.