Loctite GO2 failure

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Pharmacyguy

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3rd pen that this has happened with the Loctite GO2 glue. All were at least 2 years old and involved different woods that were all professionally stabilized. Anyone else experience this? Did I get a bad batch of glue, does it not like brass or the stabilization chemicals?
 
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MRDucks2

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I have not had good luck with Locktite GO2 in most of the applications I have tried it in. Did not replace first bottle. Had other products that I was consistent in that worked well.
 

Edgar

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GO2 is not a CA glue. It is described as a multi-purpose glue, but is not a suitable substitute for all CA applications.

I’ve tried several different CA glues and finally settled on 2P-10 for all my CA applications. I use 2P-10 medium to glue my tubes - no scuffing & never had a single failure. YMMV
 

Woodchipper

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I use Titebond thick for tubes. So far, so good.
Ken B., as for epoxy, what do you use? Do you glue more than one blank and tube? I have used Two Ton Epoxy for other applications which sets in 30 minutes.
Edgar, who make the 2P-10? Curious.
 

leehljp

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Three glues for tubes in wood - best holding to less:
1. Polyurethane glue (expanding) Best holding bar none. Cons: 1. messy 2. if not done properly, can move the tube partially out of the blank as it expands if not careful. In this case it is ruined. This glue does not let go!
2. Epoxy, holds better than CA for most people, liberal amount needed for excellent adhesion. Cons: can be messy too.
3. CA, For some it works fine. But generally the thicker the better. Cons: does not make full contact between tube and blank.

For CA and in some cases Epoxy, if one has a blowout where a portion of the blank shatters off while turning, almost everyone who has experienced this has been amazed at how little adhesion has taken place. Unless this has happened to you, most would not believe just how little adhesion takes place between the tube and the wood. And this is what makes polyurethane glue rise to the top in adhesion.

For me, when working with an expensive or delicate blank, I will always use polyurethane glue. Period.
AND don't be confused with "Gorilla Glue". The Gorilla Glue company now makes numerous types of glue. Just because it says "Gorilla" does not make it polyurethane glue. However, Gorilla does make a very good polyurethane glue.
 

grpass

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Seems no one has mentioned this method that I have seen. One comment is that CA doesn't make full contact. What works for me is sand the tube all the way around. Put on several vertical rows of CA, As you are inserting the tube make sure you rotate the tube as you insert it. Works every time. 20 to 30. seconds total time. Done deal. Spray accelerator if u choose too.
 

jrista

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For gluing tubes into blanks, the only stuff I use now is T88 epoxy. I've tried CA, Loctite G02, Gorilla glues (original foaming, as well as non-foaming clear), and a few other epoxies. The JB Weld epoxy does a pretty good job, but the T88 holds anything to anything, it seems, including segments of varying materials (resins, woods, metals, etc.)
 

Woodchipper

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Seems no one has mentioned this method that I have seen. One comment is that CA doesn't make full contact. What works for me is sand the tube all the way around. Put on several vertical rows of CA, As you are inserting the tube make sure you rotate the tube as you insert it. Works every time. 20 to 30. seconds total time. Done deal. Spray accelerator if u choose too.
Same here. I made an insertion tool out of a piece of HDPE, tapered on one end. Glue is cheap if you amortize the cost per pen.
 

Edgar

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I use Titebond thick for tubes. So far, so good.
Ken B., as for epoxy, what do you use? Do you glue more than one blank and tube? I have used Two Ton Epoxy for other applications which sets in 30 minutes.
Edgar, who make the 2P-10? Curious.
2P-10 is made by FastCap,LLC — they also make a number of other products. You can order glue directly from them or from a distributor or from Amazon.

 

jttheclockman

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Three glues for tubes in wood - best holding to less:
1. Polyurethane glue (expanding) Best holding bar none. Cons: 1. messy 2. if not done properly, can move the tube partially out of the blank as it expands if not careful. In this case it is ruined. This glue does not let go!
2. Epoxy, holds better than CA for most people, liberal amount needed for excellent adhesion. Cons: can be messy too.
3. CA, For some it works fine. But generally the thicker the better. Cons: does not make full contact between tube and blank.

For CA and in some cases Epoxy, if one has a blowout where a portion of the blank shatters off while turning, almost everyone who has experienced this has been amazed at how little adhesion has taken place. Unless this has happened to you, most would not believe just how little adhesion takes place between the tube and the wood. And this is what makes polyurethane glue rise to the top in adhesion.

For me, when working with an expensive or delicate blank, I will always use polyurethane glue. Period.
AND don't be confused with "Gorilla Glue". The Gorilla Glue company now makes numerous types of glue. Just because it says "Gorilla" does not make it polyurethane glue. However, Gorilla does make a very good polyurethane glue.
I am going to disagree with Hank on this subject and remind you these are my opinions. Expanding poly glues is one of the worst glues you can use for what we do. Two reason and the first is it expands and the second is it expands. One thing you do not want to happen when working with woods and especially with segmented woods. You do not need added pressure coming from under the blank as well as from the outside of the blank. If there are small hairline cracks in a wood blank it can open those cracks even more and now they get seen as where if you use an epoxy they just adhere to both tube and blank. Epoxy is gap filling as well as poly glues but does it more safely and way less messy. I bring this up more so for the Newbes and those still looking for that perfect adhesive to glue in tubes. Use epoxy. My glue of choice that most people here already know is System3 T88. Never had a failure. Use for everything. Especially when doing segmented work.
 

leehljp

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I am going to disagree with Hank on this subject and remind you these are my opinions. Expanding poly glues is one of the worst glues you can use for what we do. Two reason and the first is it expands and the second is it expands. One thing you do not want to happen when working with woods and especially with segmented woods. You do not need added pressure coming from under the blank as well as from the outside of the blank. If there are small hairline cracks in a wood blank it can open those cracks even more and now they get seen as where if you use an epoxy they just adhere to both tube and blank. Epoxy is gap filling as well as poly glues but does it more safely and way less messy. I bring this up more so for the Newbes and those still looking for that perfect adhesive to glue in tubes. Use epoxy. My glue of choice that most people here already know is System3 T88. Never had a failure. Use for everything. Especially when doing segmented work.
Wow, you talk theory. I am talking practical. This thread is about gluing tubes into blanks, not about gluing segments together. Segments that have been glued together are going to hold. Any segment with a space big enough for glue to seep through wasn't put together well enough to begin with. And I guess you may have missed the point about poly glue. It was created - NOT to create tons of pressure as it expands. But rather very little pressure but expanding so that would engage the full inside of an empty cavity - then cure. THAT is what poly does.

There is a difference between expanding for pressure versus expanding for full contact. And it holds better bar none.
 
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jttheclockman

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Wow, you talk theory. I am talking practical. This thread is about gluing tubes into blanks, not about gluing segments together. Segments that have been glued together are going to hold. Any segment with a space big enough for glue to seep through wasn't put together well enough to begin with. And I guess you may have missed the point about poly glue. It was created - NOT to create tons of pressure as it expands. But rather very little pressure but expanding so that would engage the full inside of an empty cavity - then cure. THAT is what poly does.

There is a difference between expanding for pressure versus expanding for full contact. And it holds better bar none.
Sorry do not buy it Hank. Again you did not read my post right. When I said using poly to glue a segmented blank I did not mean to glue the segments together but to glue the completed blank to tube and yes sorry sir but there is pressure when using expanding glues of any kind FACT. Again I said my opinion , so please continue using what you find works for you. But I suggest new pen turners to look at epoxy glues to glue tubes in. When you say very little pressure, any pressure is too much. I stated this as an opinion and if others find using other glues go ahead and do so at your own risk. Same with CA. Go ahead and continue using CA.
 

jrista

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Wow, you talk theory. I am talking practical. This thread is about gluing tubes into blanks, not about gluing segments together. Segments that have been glued together are going to hold. Any segment with a space big enough for glue to seep through wasn't put together well enough to begin with. And I guess you may have missed the point about poly glue. It was created - NOT to create tons of pressure as it expands. But rather very little pressure but expanding so that would engage the full inside of an empty cavity - then cure. THAT is what poly does.

There is a difference between expanding for pressure versus expanding for full contact. And it holds better bar none.
This has been my experience as well...that poly expands and fills the space. Sure, there is going to be some pressure, but most of the excess force of that pressure as far as I've ever seen forces the glue out the ends of the blank. This is the same force that will shift the tube as well, but some proper clamping will avoid that (only problem I do still tend to have is the tube may shift away from the end I want it nearer to, which is usually the point at which I cut my blank for cap and body, so I get the best possible grain alignment.)

I do like the fact that poly fills the void. That is one thing that neither epoxy nor CA will do. On the few occasions where I've had a blank explode on me while turning, it always seems to be insufficient glue near a weak spot. So either, you deal with a little pressure and fill in the voids...or not...but in the end, a weak spot, is a weak spot. If there is a crack, whether you expand it or not, I think its potential for trouble either way.
 

jttheclockman

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This has been my experience as well...that poly expands and fills the space. Sure, there is going to be some pressure, but most of the excess force of that pressure as far as I've ever seen forces the glue out the ends of the blank. This is the same force that will shift the tube as well, but some proper clamping will avoid that (only problem I do still tend to have is the tube may shift away from the end I want it nearer to, which is usually the point at which I cut my blank for cap and body, so I get the best possible grain alignment.)

I do like the fact that poly fills the void. That is one thing that neither epoxy nor CA will do. On the few occasions where I've had a blank explode on me while turning, it always seems to be insufficient glue near a weak spot. So either, you deal with a little pressure and fill in the voids...or not...but in the end, a weak spot, is a weak spot. If there is a crack, whether you expand it or not, I think its potential for trouble either way.
Being we are using words like in my experience I will use the same ones, in my experience epoxy absolutely fills voids. If there is enough pressure to push a tube out a hole when using poly, then there is internal pressure because now you are blocking that tube from moving. My only point when I made the statement and I stand behind it is (it can happen and when something has a possibility to happen why use it). No one here on this forum has seen it all and we make statements that we have seen or tried. Just saying.
 

leehljp

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This has been my experience as well...that poly expands and fills the space. Sure, there is going to be some pressure, but most of the excess force of that pressure as far as I've ever seen forces the glue out the ends of the blank. This is the same force that will shift the tube as well, but some proper clamping will avoid that (only problem I do still tend to have is the tube may shift away from the end I want it nearer to, which is usually the point at which I cut my blank for cap and body, so I get the best possible grain alignment.)

I do like the fact that poly fills the void. That is one thing that neither epoxy nor CA will do. On the few occasions where I've had a blank explode on me while turning, it always seems to be insufficient glue near a weak spot. So either, you deal with a little pressure and fill in the voids...or not...but in the end, a weak spot, is a weak spot. If there is a crack, whether you expand it or not, I think its potential for trouble either way.
That has happened quite often on this forum, and by many over the years. I have coated the inside of the blanks well with epoxy, the outside of the tube well, but if one looks closely while inserting the tube into the blank, air gets pushed in and trapped inside and there is not nearly the amount of adhesion than most would believe. If anyone has some old epoxied blanks laying around that they didn't use, turn them down to the glue level and just look at the lack of adhesion spots under the wood. Twisting the tubes into the blank with epoxy on both will only take more air in with it.
 

jttheclockman

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That has happened quite often on this forum, and by many over the years. I have coated the inside of the blanks well with epoxy, the outside of the tube well, but if one looks closely while inserting the tube into the blank, air gets pushed in and trapped inside and there is not nearly the amount of adhesion than most would believe. If anyone has some old epoxied blanks laying around that they didn't use, turn them down to the glue level and just look at the lack of adhesion spots under the wood. Twisting the tubes into the blank with epoxy on both will only take more air in with it.
Happy Turning everyone and good luck. :):):):)
 
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grpass

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Same here. I made an insertion tool out of a piece of HDPE, tapered on one end. Glue is cheap if you amortize the cost per pen.
I did the same out of an old screwdriver, works perfect. Keeps the CA off your fingers. Makes it easy to spin the tubes as you insert them with the glue on them.
 

penicillin

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In case anyone cares, I have used all of these glues for gluing pen tubes into pen blanks:
  • Polyurethane: Original Gorilla Glue, White Gorilla Glue
  • Epoxy: 5 minute syringe (various brands), West Systems G-Flex
  • CA: Various thicknesses and brands, including StickFast "Flexible"
  • Silane: Gorilla Clear
Not Tried, Because It Does Not Work:
  • Wood glue (e.g., Titebond I, II, III)
  • Other white glues, household glues
  • School paste
  • Whatever stuff ends up on childrens' fingers after they eat candy
What I use:
  • Polyurethane: Most of the time for general pen making. I use it on wood and opaque plastic blanks.
    • I have this down to a science. It just works. I let the glue cure overnight at least, 24 hours preferred.
  • Epoxy: Translucent plastic (acrylic) blanks and "special" pens.
    • Works well and reliably, but mixing two-part adhesives is annoying, messy, and expensive.
    • Syringe types are almost like CA for quality. Not very good.
    • Based on my experience, "5 minute epoxy" is not ready in 5 minutes. Give it a couple hours to cure for better results.
    • I like the West Systems G-Flex epoxy for high quality and good results. There are many "quality" epoxies to choose from.
  • CA: Pen making demos and classes, when the pen must be ready to turn in a few minutes.
    • Brittle
    • Useful for quick demos and classes, but not for "production" pens, in my opinion.
    • The vast majority of blank separation turning failures that I have witnessed happened when pen tubes were glued with CA.
    • If you must use CA, consider a flexible CA to reduce brittleness and potential failures.
      • I have done this, but all I can say is that it worked okay. Personally I would not use flexible CA for production pens.
  • Silane (Gorilla Clear): I have tried it on a few pens.
    • It works like epoxy without mixing. It takes 24 hours to cure.This is a potential replacement for epoxy. I have not glued enough pen tubes with it to say much. It is pricey, and must be stored in the light to stay clear, but away from heat.
I am with Hank (@leehljp) regarding polyurethane (sorry, John) - it expands to fill the gaps. I agree that it is brittle when cured, which is not desirable for gluing pen tubes, but it does not seem to be an issue for me. I have yet to see a polyurethane glue failure.

I use polyurethane for the vast majority of the pens I make. I use it because it is cheap, easy, and convenient. You can glue a lot of pen tubes with the smallest 2 oz Gorilla Glue (original) bottle for around $6. It is messy - there is definitely a technique to glueing pen tubes with it, but you have similar issues with epoxy.

Another side note:
Do not use those silicone brushes, trays, and mats with Epoxy, CA, or Silane glues. Epoxy will leave a permanent tarry, sticky residue wherever the mix was not perfect. The CA and silane glues stick permanently. The silicone brush bristles will break off before they release CA or silane glue.
-> Some people say that those silicone gluing accessories do not work with polyurethane glue, but I have been using the Rockler branded products with original Gorilla Glue for years with no problems. When I glue pen tubes in a bunch of blanks, I lay them out on one of those Rockler silicone work mats. The polyurethane glue foams, cures, and comes off the brushes, trays, and mat as expected. I assume that other brands of silicone gluing accessories work equally well with polyurethane. Just my experience.
 
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jttheclockman

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I am with Hank (@leehljp) regarding polyurethane (sorry, John) - it expands to fill the gaps. I agree that it is brittle when cured, which is not desirable for gluing pen tubes, but it does not seem to be an issue for me. I have yet to see a polyurethane glue failure.

Go back and see where I said that poly does not fill gaps. Yes it does and does it well. That is the problem it adds pressure. That was my point to what Hank said. Is it a good glue for pens, I leave that to you and all others that choose to use it. But epoxy is just as gap filling as poly and sticks very well also. This thing Hank said about not gap filling with epoxy and air bubbles , to me is operator error and can not blame it on the glue. I never am going to turn a blank off a tube just to see if there is glue on it but can guarantee there will be with my method. Yes there are different brands that maybe better than others and again that is a choice for users. I mentioned my choice. You mentioned epoxy is messy to mix and expensive, again a matter of opinion. If done right very easy to mix and after a few pens you get to know amounts needed. I rather have too much mixed than not enough. Glue is another one of those cheap must have items that goes into making pens. But if the wrong choice is made it can get expensive. That is the way I look at it. I sort of laugh when I see many people here say things like I never seen this fail or that fail. If you sell pens you rely on customer feedback and returns for answers like that. But it could be people just do not think it proper to return a broken pen especially if not expensive and they ditch it or stick in a drawer and move on. Of course we all hope nothing ever goes wrong with anything we make and sell but on the other hand we want to help someone if it does to keep up a good name on the selling market. I run into this alot with my scrollsaw work and clocks I make and other things. I have run into past customers telling me their clock does not work any more. I wish they would let me do right and fix them if not something normal. So no you or I see every pen we make at after it leaves your site and you have no idea what course of destruction it took on over its life span.

I will give you one to chew on, you never see on here people talking about PL2000 or Liquid nails as an adhesive to glue pens in. Construction adhesive has to be some of the strongest adhesives on the market. Stay flexible, gap filling, and strong as all heck. Put that in your test patterns.

Now I have used E6000 flexible clear adhesive and had failures with gluing brass to wood. It dried and became brittle over time and pieces fell off. I see now they come out with E7000. Never tried it. Again the epoxy I keep going back to and like is System3T88, Yes it is a 24 hour epoxy at least. But again Happy Turning and happy gluing. We all have our methods and materials we use. We share our experiences and we share the info we gathered over time. What others do with that is up to them. There are no right and wrong way to do many things we do making pens but we still share what we found. Good luck.
 

KenB259

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I have posted this before, no one takes heed of it,(story of my life), anyways here it is again, this from the makers of Gorilla glue and I quote,

"Gorilla Glue is not a gap-filling glue - that isn't a claim that we make. Because it is a polyurethane glue, Gorilla Glue expands 3-4 times the application amount into the surfaces to create a superior bond. However, if those surfaces are not tightly fitted together and then clamped, the expanding glue will not create a strong bond - as you saw in the video, the "foam" on its own is not strong enough to hold the pressure when the two surfaces are not tightly fitted. As you saw, Gorilla Glue does perform very well when the surfaces are tightly fitted - in fact, it is stronger than the other glues you tried. In the future, we recommend Gorilla Epoxy for gap filling applications, as it fills voids and bonds uneven and vertical surfaces. We hope this information is helpful! ?
 

jttheclockman

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There you go Ken. We should all heed this now. But to add to this in our little world of pen making the surfaces are different than gluing 2 pieces of wood together. So technically it would easily fill the small gaps between pen tube and blanks. That is nit picking but your point is well taken and their claims should be followed.
 

SteveG

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I rarely make pens now, after retiring from doing that for a living. I made and sold well over a thousand kit pens mostly using epoxy for securing the brass tube. No failures...no pen came back due to brass-to-blank adhesion issues. But after reading this thread, and if I were still in the game, I would give heed to and run some tests using the Gorilla epoxy because of the claimed gap filing property. The point is, only by trying and testing can one be assured that their selected process and materials work for their needs.

So there, Ken B...someone took heed. I hope I made your day;)
 

KenB259

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I rarely make pens now, after retiring from doing that for a living. I made and sold well over a thousand kit pens mostly using epoxy for securing the brass tube. No failures...no pen came back due to brass-to-blank adhesion issues. But after reading this thread, and if I were still in the game, I would give heed to and run some tests using the Gorilla epoxy because of the claimed gap filing property. The point is, only by trying and testing can one be assured that their selected process and materials work for their needs.

So there, Ken B...someone took heed. I hope I made your day;)
LOL, finally!!
 

jrista

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Now I have used E6000 flexible clear adhesive and had failures with gluing brass to wood. It dried and became brittle over time and pieces fell off. I see now they come out with E7000. Never tried it. Again the epoxy I keep going back to and like is System3T88, Yes it is a 24 hour epoxy at least. But again Happy Turning and happy gluing. We all have our methods and materials we use. We share our experiences and we share the info we gathered over time. What others do with that is up to them. There are no right and wrong way to do many things we do making pens but we still share what we found. Good luck.
T88 is my go-to as well now. It doesn't have to be a 24-hour glue, though...like most epoxies, it needs sufficient heat to FLOW PROPERLY for best crosslinking, and when heated a bit, will cure in a matter of hours. T88 is also the only epoxy I know of that will cross-link to a sufficient degree in very cold temps...but, it can day days to a week to cure. It is a very flexible glue, and a bit of heat (i.e. a toaster oven at a low setting) will in fact increase flow and cross-linking, producing an even stronger bond than a 24 hour room-temp cure.
 
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