Life Expectancy and Experience

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monophoto

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There was a post this morning on a thread that started many years ago, and where the original poster hasn't been on the site for almost ten years. I didn't want to hijack that thread, but it did trigger some questions that probably deserve discussion.

The post questioned the choice of pen kit platings, and raised the issue of the expected durability of those platings. Conventional wisdom is that some platings are 'better' than others and can be expected to last longer, while others have a reputation for not being very durable. For example, gold plating doesn't have a very good reputation in spite of the cachet associated with that metal. Several posters suggested that a good entry point for pen turners wishing to test the market for selling pens at shows would be chrome because it's relatively durable, and yet inexpensive enough that retail prices don't have to be excessive.

There have also been dozens of threads about finishing choices for pens - CA vs polyurethane vs friction polish vs whatever, with durability as one of the metrics that supposedly should be considered.

But the question I would pose is what is the expectation of a customer who purchases a hand-made pen at a craft show? And how does that expectation compare with the actual life expectancy of the plating and/or finish on pens? I know what we've been told, and what is conventional wisdom about platings and finishes, but what has been the actual experience of others about the durability of the various options?

I got my start in wood turning about ten years ago, and initially my focus was on pens. I currently have three pens on my desk that I made in those early days - two are 10K gold, and one is chrome. One was finished with CA, one with solvent-based WOP and one with water-based poly. I also have a fourth pen that my wife purchased for me that I'm pretty sure is 24K gold and finished in CA. All four pens are about the same age (10 years) and all have seen regular use. As I compare the pens today, I can't detect any evidence of wear in either the finishing or the plating.

I am a pen person and treasure my collection of pens. I have some fairly old pens in my collection - a Cross (all metal) that I bought 35 years ago, and a Parker 45 (plastic) that was given to me as a college graduation present more than 50 years ago. I still use both, and neither shows significant wear. I also have an expensive Mont Blanc that was given to me about 30 years ago and that I retired because it had a habit of deteriorating rapidly and requiring frequent, expensive repair.

My wife has two pens that I made for her and that she uses very regularly. Again, both are about ten years old and made of wood finished with CA. One has gold TN plating, and the other is copper. And again, I can't see any evidence of deterioration in either the finish or the plating. But while she treasures these pens because I made them for her, she also interchangeably uses cheap plastic advertising giveaway pens. For her, a pen is a utilitarian item rather that the object of a fetish.

I would argue that most people whopurchase a hand-made pen at a craft sale are not pen collectors, and it is unlikely that they will keep that purchase for a lifetime. Instead, it will get lost, loaned or stolen, dropped on pavement or damaged in some other way, or simply replaced by some other favorite pen. So the issue for the make is not whether the plating and finish will last forever, but rather will they last as long as the typical purchaser is likely to be using the pen?

Pen makers often caution purchasers are leaving pens in hot cars or other things than can cause damage. While it would be ethically questionable for a turner to intentionally use inferior kits and finishes in order to maintain cost of making pens without advising purchasers about the possiblity of aging and wear, I don't see any problem with offering purchasers a choice of quality with a corresponding range of prices while explaining that the more expensive options are made with materials intended to last longer and are probably more suitable for collectors, while the less expensive options are completely functional but might show signs of aging over time.

Fred Picker was well known photographer and maker of photographic equipment. One of his products was a wooden tripod. He used to say that one of the differences between his tripod and the metal tripods made by other suppliers was that wood was like people - over time, it picked up honorable scars. That's also true of pens.
 
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jttheclockman

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I believe you ask a question that can not be answered with any certainty. Too many factors come into play and you went on to mention a few. We do not have any idea how that pen will live it's life. How many people will touch that pen. We do not know the chemical makeup of a person's being. Hand oils vary with people and acidity is a factor. Just a nature thing. We do not know where that pen will reside and will it be well taken care of. We tell customers they are buying a hand made item that needs care but do they really follow that. Any pen with any type coating and or finish will last forever if only used as a display piece. I have cheap pens that I throw in the truck and use all the time. You know the ones that are given out as samples and things and they last a life time. Or at least till the ink drys out. Many years ago my biggest carry pen was the old computer pens that I made. It was on a sierra with upgraded gold fittings and black plastic. Still have it and still use it. The pen has seen better days. Has dents and the plating has worn off. But the blank still looks good. Scratches but to be expected. That pen by itself probably was responsible for at least 6 or 7 sales because people loved it when they saw it. So good luck in your quest to find these answers but again will say buy the best paltings and warrenty your work and you will do well in sales.
 

leehljp

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I see a few people here with exceptional talent and artistic skill putting the work in a "kit". The extra work and skill does not extend the life of the pen per se. These guys would do well in kitless. The skill and yet simplicity of the kitless pens of late lends itself to higher quality home made or specialty purchased components overall, attracting a higher price and a buyer who understands the quality - and therefore will take better care. By instinct, I take better care of my expensive tools and pens than I do of ones that are kinda considered a consumable.

I recently moved my office from one location to another, and knowing the chaos of a move, I put up my good pens and bought a pack of Walmart pens. In two months, I lost nearly 2 dozen. Now that I am settled in, it is time to get my good pens back out.

The foundation (to me) comes down to this personal attitude : Do I consider this as a short or long term consumable, or is this a keepsake and valued treasure? IMHO, Those two different thoughts divide the use and care.
 
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magpens

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I have limited experience . . . but . . .

. . for kit pens, I don't see a lot of difference in the cost of components comparing the "cheap" platings and the "more durable" platings,
and so there is not much difference to reflect into the finished price when it comes right down to it.

The biggest $ investment for the maker of a handmade pen is the time/labor.

And so, I have always felt inclined to spend a little more to get more durable platings at the time of component purchase.
Selling price of the finished product is not much different if you do the pricing realistically and consistent with actual costs.

As a hypothetical example, I am thinking of a high-end kit priced at $50 for a "less durable" plating compared to $60 for "more durable".
The labor would be the same, so I "should" sell the "less durable" finished pen for, say, $250 compared to, say, $260 for the "more durable".

I know there will be some variation in the thinking on this topic, but that's how I see it . . . simplistically .
 

jrista

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I have really wondered where the scientific evidence is that one finish is inferior to another. I don't use CA because it causes an anaphylactic like shock to my body, making it extremely hard to breathe, and over prolonged periods of time it could even be deadly. I had to seek medical help in 2020 because of exposure to CA before I knew it was CA causing my issues.

I've been told countless times by many other penmakers that the only viable pen finish is CA, and that all other finishes are junk that will deteriorate within weeks or months. Thing is, I have never been able to find any proper studies done that actually PROVE that to be the case. I've used friction polishes, even just oil (which, for wood pens where I really want the wood texture to show and be felt, actually seems to do the job best), and now Pens Plus. I generally prefer the latter because it gives me a shinier finish when I want it, but also...in my experience, having used some pens (one in particular quite heavily) finished in PP for months now, it seems to be quite durable once it cures properly.

It took me a bit of time to figure out how to properly apply it, and until I did I had some issues, but with proper application it seems to be a very durable finish. I actually left this one particular pen out in the direct sun for several hours, and it shows no signs of wear...it certainly didn't get gooey to the touch, nor did the finish smear all over the place.

I think there are a lot of anecdotes about finish that float around, and I think there is a lot of stigmatization of...well, pretty much anything but CA, and I am not sure that is fair and honest. For some like me, CA is not really a viable option because it is a severe allergen/toxin that could potentially cause death, or at the very least (and I speak from experience here) unbelievable misery.

I also don't think it is fair to say that any penmaker who doesn't use CA, and doesn't loudly announce that their pens are not durable, is being dishonest. There is no scientific data that clearly demonstrates the durability of any finish or how they compare to each other as far as I know. It's all anecdotal, and a lot of it is pure opinion.
 

jttheclockman

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I have really wondered where the scientific evidence is that one finish is inferior to another. I don't use CA because it causes an anaphylactic like shock to my body, making it extremely hard to breathe, and over prolonged periods of time it could even be deadly. I had to seek medical help in 2020 because of exposure to CA before I knew it was CA causing my issues.

I've been told countless times by many other penmakers that the only viable pen finish is CA, and that all other finishes are junk that will deteriorate within weeks or months. Thing is, I have never been able to find any proper studies done that actually PROVE that to be the case. I've used friction polishes, even just oil (which, for wood pens where I really want the wood texture to show and be felt, actually seems to do the job best), and now Pens Plus. I generally prefer the latter because it gives me a shinier finish when I want it, but also...in my experience, having used some pens (one in particular quite heavily) finished in PP for months now, it seems to be quite durable once it cures properly.

It took me a bit of time to figure out how to properly apply it, and until I did I had some issues, but with proper application it seems to be a very durable finish. I actually left this one particular pen out in the direct sun for several hours, and it shows no signs of wear...it certainly didn't get gooey to the touch, nor did the finish smear all over the place.

I think there are a lot of anecdotes about finish that float around, and I think there is a lot of stigmatization of...well, pretty much anything but CA, and I am not sure that is fair and honest. For some like me, CA is not really a viable option because it is a severe allergen/toxin that could potentially cause death, or at the very least (and I speak from experience here) unbelievable misery.

I also don't think it is fair to say that any penmaker who doesn't use CA, and doesn't loudly announce that their pens are not durable, is being dishonest. There is no scientific data that clearly demonstrates the durability of any finish or how they compare to each other as far as I know. It's all anecdotal, and a lot of it is pure opinion.
Jon I think he was also talking about durability with platings.

But I do want to comment on your comment about finishes. There are hundreds of studies on durability of different types of finishes over the years because that is what the sales hype is all about when these manufacturers sell their products. Also all the top finishers have many books out there and info from their findings. I think those are good sources to look at when comparing products in the general form before compare actual products because that comes down to formulas and sales pitch mostly. But you can not group all finishes into the same catagory such as oilbased, waterbased, polys, lacquers, shellac and so on. There are many catagories within those sub catagories and they need their own testing. I just mentioned this in one of these threads but it is us the penturner who has taken a product that was meant to adhere things and made it a finish. CA glue. Now along come versions of it and the latest is Glubost but it still is glue. I will not knock any product because I have not tried all products for myself but will tell you that CA can be the hardest top coating around. And the reason it is penturners choice. But Polys are up there as well as is the Urishi finish. How can you compare I will leave that to the pros and machines to do that. Other formulas such as DRs something or other and Joes tobacco juice are mixtures of products by people looking for that perfect finish that does not exists. As I said every finish will scratch. One of the toughest finishes that does not get play is powdercoating. Probably tougher than CA.

Lacquers gets little play here as well but a very good finish and durable. Now we also have to take in consideration we are hand applying as opposed to lab heating and controls where they can do a far better job. People constanly talk about feel of wood and the use of friction polishes. Those have to be the worst when it comes to protection because they are not a top coating material. They are a liquid that penetrates into the wood fibers and makes the wood have a warm glow. They are fine for making and feeling the wood fibers but will collect dirt and grim from hands over time. Have to remember a pen is handled different than a piece of furniture. Many ways to get that same look and feel using harder materials but may take experimenting such as using lacquers like satin, or polys and not building up as many coats and even CA but stopping short of a total gloss look. I can go on and on here but the point is finishes come down to a matter of choice and there are many out there. Durability is something that can not be quntified because of the user aspect but material wise can be quantified because tests have been done. Good luck.
 

jrista

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It took me a while to find this again, but this is from the author of the "Understanding Wood Finish", which I think is basically the bible of wood finish:


I have read through various parts of his book a number of times, and he warns the reader a lot about advertising of finishes, and how certain words are often used to make a finish seem more than it really is, etc. I didn't know that so many of the finishes we use, for all their different names and advertising, are really linseed oil, sometimes just linseed oil, maybe just with a bit of atmosphere exposure to "polymerize" them first (which isn't the same as the early polymerized oils, which were heated in a vacuum to cause carbon cross-linking). That aspect of the book was quite enlightening to me, and transformed the whole world of finishes for me.

The last part of this article was quite interesting, as he mentioned how the oil only finish on the pens was more durable than either a shellac or lacquer finish, because the oils polymerize. That goes against everything I've heard from pretty much everyone else, who seem to think oil is an insufficient pen finish that will simply get gooey or sticky with use. This is the guy who wrote the bible on wood finishes...I don't think there is anyone I trust more than him. Polymerization is a one-way process, though, so polymerized oils shouldn't reverse back into the individual compounds.

I gather that CA is hard. It's a plastic. There is certainly a durability advantage there, and I don't deny that. What I think frustrates me, is that there are a lot of pen turners who poo-poo any other finish as non-durable. Which I think is simply untrue...I wouldn't consider durability to be a bit, or a flag...it isn't like you have "durable" and everything else...its a spectrum. "How durable?" I used to use a shellac based friction polish for my earliest pens, but I've stopped, as after reading more on shellac, it DOES have a problem with reacting to human sweat and oils and it does break down. There are many other finishes besides shellac, though. Some of them, like Lacquer, Poly, or Pens Plus, and maybe even just a polymerized oil, can be not only durable (again, maybe not as durable as CA given it is literally a hard plastic, but I think durable for long enough to support the expected lifetime of the pen, to refer to some of the points made by Louie in the original post), but I think many can bring out the beauty of the wood better, without plasticizing it, enhancing the grain more (oils do a better job of that IMO!), and maybe as in the case of just a polymerized (properly polymerized, with carbon cross-linking) oil, giving you the best natural wood finish you can possibly get (i.e. no film finish on the surface).

Something else about CA that I've noticed, is that it can scratch much like any plastic. Over time those scratches will mount...so, even though it is hard, that doesn't necessarily make it invulnerable. I think there are a few spectrums of qualities of finish that need to be accounted for. There is durability, but also how the finish affects the look of the wood, and finally how the finish, durable or not, wears. I find that Pens Plus wears quite differently than CA. It doesn't seem to pick up scratches per se..but, I have found (on my most wear-experiencing piece, a little keyring that all my keys come into daily contact with) that it will eventually start picking up little dents and gouges. I have not, however, noticed the same kind of scratching that CE or acrylic keyrings picked up. IMO, the Pens Plus finished keyring still looks darn good, despite the wear...and, it's never gotten sticky or anything like that despite the kind of use it gets.

Durability, Wear, Look. It's a little cube. ;) The Finish Cube!
 
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leehljp

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"The last part of this article was quite interesting, as he mentioned how the oil only finish on the pens was more durable than either a shellac or lacquer finish, because the oils polymerize."

You need to understand what he wrote. Shellac will "melt" in humid environments. Lacquer is not a great water resistant finish. That comparison against oils with those two finishes does not equate to CA or Tung Oil or Urushi or some Polyurethanes.

A second part to that is "Polymerize". Not all oils will do that in the context of a good finish.

Polymerization itself is not going to protect pens very long. Similarly to CA - One or two coats of thin CA applied with paper towel will have an estimated .001 thickness and it will not last long. Single coats or two of oil polymerizing will probably produce the same results. Now add several coats of polymerized Tung Oil or other over several weeks and you will have something, and one of the most water resistant finishes availalble. Urushi on the other hand will have the toughest finish and highest temperature resistance over both polymerized oils and CA.

The trade off is long curing times for effective finishes.

No one finish covers the whole gamut or spectrum as "best".

So what is the best practical temperature resistant finish bar none?
What is the best practical moisture resistant finish bar none?
What is the best practical Toughness finish bar none?

No one finish will do all of the above.
 

jrista

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"The last part of this article was quite interesting, as he mentioned how the oil only finish on the pens was more durable than either a shellac or lacquer finish, because the oils polymerize."

You need to understand what he wrote. Shellac will "melt" in humid environments. Lacquer is not a great water resistant finish. That comparison against oils with those two finishes does not equate to CA or Tung Oil or Urushi or some Polyurethanes.

A second part to that is "Polymerize". Not all oils will do that in the context of a good finish.

Polymerization itself is not going to protect pens very long. Similarly to CA - One or two coats of thin CA applied with paper towel will have an estimated .001 thickness and it will not last long. Single coats or two of oil polymerizing will probably produce the same results. Now add several coats of polymerized Tung Oil or other over several weeks and you will have something, and one of the most water resistant finishes availalble. Urushi on the other hand will have the toughest finish and highest temperature resistance over both polymerized oils and CA.

The trade off is long curing times for effective finishes.

No one finish covers the whole gamut or spectrum as "best".

So what is the best practical temperature resistant finish bar none?
What is the best practical moisture resistant finish bar none?
What is the best practical Toughness finish bar none?

No one finish will do all of the above.
I believe he tested with properly polymerized oil, heated high heat in a vacuum, which causes carbon crosslinking. I don't believe he tested with just your average oils.

I agree that you will need to use multiple coats of any finish to get reasonable durability, and also agree that no one finish covers the whole gamut (or spectrum, as I called it). That's pretty much what I was saying in the prior post. I am not saying we need a single-coat finish...I've never expected that. I tend to spend a few days finishing with Pens Plus anyway (and find the time invested to be worth while), and at least personally, I am not averse to longer finish cure times if it produces a nice, aesthetically pleasing, and reasonably durable finish. I usually use multiple coats of a finish, sometimes buff, and take a lot of care not to touch my finishes until they have cured, etc. I think patience is a virtue in this hobby (or line of work, guess it depends.)

I've never used Urushi, although I did look it up. Sounds incredible. In looking around at Urushi, I also found some $9800 urushi lacquer painted fountain pens...hand painted, with exceptional detail, as far as I could tell. I'd give it a try, but it seems to be rather expensive, and potentially toxic (and I seem to be allergic to everything :p), so I'll probably pass for the time being. Would be interesting, though, to paint a pen...
 

rherrell

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In 2008 I made 20 Jr. Gent pens for the Richard Childress Racing Team. They were Whitetail Antler antler for the cap and Desert Ironwood for the barrel. The finish was gold, nothing special.
A few weeks ago one of the pens was returned because the clip had broken, I put a brand new clip on it and you could barely tell the difference. Point being...the standard gold finish held up very well, I was told the person who owned the pen kept it in his top pocket and used it every day.

BTW, the CA finish looked great as well.
 
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