Levels of difficulty in kits

[mullinswoodworx]

What determines if a kit is considered a beginner kit vs an advanced kit? Is it based on the difficulty of assembly, the size, overall design, or something else? Is it more difficult to achieve a smooth or clean blank to hardware seam/transition in some kits?

 

[jttheclockman]

What determines if a kit is considered a beginner kit vs an advanced kit? Is it based on the difficulty of assembly, the size, overall design, or something else? Is it more difficult to achieve a smooth or clean blank to hardware seam/transition in some kits?

None of the above in my mind. If you can make a slimline you can make any pen. The thing about one being easier is the fact if the kit is a one blank VS a two blank kit. Many beginners start with making slimline kits because they are cheap to buy but they are more difficult that a one blank suck as the sierra line. Now to some a beginner kit can be a cheaper kit per-se because if you make a mistake it does not cost as much a say a $100 kit from Dayacom. But I have seen newbies come here and show off their first pens and they are making some pens I would not even try. Putting components into tubes is easy if you can read instructions and certain basic rules apply to all kits such as keeping parts straight as you press in. Keeping parts in the right order and getting all parts together. Keeping tubes clear from glue and debris as you press the parts in and so on. The challenging thing is matching blanks with kits for looks, making your own blanks that make your pen stand out above others. That is where the difficulty comes in in my opinion. Trying different shapes is a matter of choice but again not difficult if you can handle the tools. So to me pen turning is easy all around.

 

[magpens]

What determines if a kit is considered a beginner kit vs an advanced kit? Is it based on the difficulty of assembly, the size, overall design, or something else? Is it more difficult to achieve a smooth or clean blank to hardware seam/transition in some kits?

As John said above, the concepts and techniques for pen turning are all pretty straightforward.
In my opinion, the slimline style of kit, commonly recommended for beginners, is actually one of the more difficult, partly cuz of small diameter.
Also, the technique of mandrel turning with bushings, also commonly recommended for beginners, is more difficult for me than "turning between centers", or TBC. . I am not sure why that is, but I find TBC much better, using calipers to check the size frequently ... may sound harder but it's not.

Sometimes the difficulty with a particular kit comes from the way the instruction sheet is written .... some companies do a great job with their instructions and some do a very sketchy and inadequate job. . After you have done a few different kits you get to know the techniques and can often dispense with the instructions altogether. . But it is always best to read the instructions in case there are any little tricks to be aware of. . The order of doing things can sometimes be quite important.

You ask ... "Is it more difficult to achieve a smooth or clean blank to hardware seam/transition in some kits?"
My answer is that it is more difficult to achieve smooth/clean transitions if you use bushings as your guide .... but this need not be the case.
It just seems to me that with bushings as your guide you seem to feel compelled to "turn down to the bushings".
In my opinion, that is often not the best approach.
I like to measure my kit parts, use calipers, and try to turn my blanks just a few thou bigger than the hardware sizes.
For example, if my hardware size is 0.425", I will turn down to 0.430" or 0.432" .... that is, about 0.003" or 0.004" bigger ON THE RADIUS.
My reason is that I always follow the turning with some sanding, which further reduces the size a tiny bit.
Another reason is that, from an aesthetic point of view, a little bigger is MUCH better than a little smaller ... "smaller than hardware" looks bad.

So you can make your life easier and better by learning techniques. . But I don't generally go along with believing in the "difficulty of a kit" as such.

I have never understood why the slimline is a "beginner" kit .... IMHO it is not. . If anything, it is more difficult due to smaller diameter.

When you go to smaller diameter, a 0.001" error is a bigger percentage of the final result and that can show !

Another thing about bushings ... you should never "nick" them with your tools. . Once you do that, throw away the bushings ... they are useless.

Just my two cents worth, as they say !! ..... (but it's really worth more than two cents ...... LOL !!! )

 

[Kenny Durrant]

I agree with both the replies above. My first thought was that unless you get a kit that requires a tendon, which I stay away from because it's a pain, the kits are pretty much the same. Although when I first started I was using a bar clamp to press the components together and until I got the feel of the stand alone pen presses I messed up pens putting them together. That being said that might be part of the thought process when buying more expensive kits due to the cost of replacing them for whatever the case may be.

 

[studioseven]

I agree with all above. I don't consider kits made for beginners vs advanced. More the other way around ..... beginning turners vs advanced turners. I'm not sure what it takes to achieve advanced turner status. I think almost everyone else will agree with me that we are all still learning every day. I went back and read one of your initial posts asking if the IAP has an You Tube channel. While the IAP doesn't there are members who do have some excellent videos. Check out Mark Dreyer, Chad Schimmel and Exotic Blanks. I hope I don't offend anyone because I know there are more and I'm sure someone will chime in with them. Also check out the IAP library. There are some really good tutorials there. Welcome to our community. I look forward to seeing your work.

Seven

 

[FGarbrecht]

As John said above, the concepts and techniques for pen turning are all pretty straightforward.
In my opinion, the slimline style of kit, commonly recommended for beginners, is actually one of the more difficult, partly cuz of small diameter.
Also, the technique of mandrel turning with bushings, also commonly recommended for beginners, is more difficult for me than "turning between centers", or TBC. . I am not sure why that is, but I find TBC much better, using calipers to check the size frequently ... may sound harder but it's not.

Sometimes the difficulty with a particular kit comes from the way the instruction sheet is written .... some companies do a great job with their instructions and some do a very sketchy and inadequate job. . After you have done a few different kits you get to know the techniques and can often dispense with the instructions altogether. . But it is always best to read the instructions in case there are any little tricks to be aware of. . The order of doing things can sometimes be quite important.

You ask ... "Is it more difficult to achieve a smooth or clean blank to hardware seam/transition in some kits?"
My answer is that it is more difficult to achieve smooth/clean transitions if you use bushings as your guide .... but this need not be the case.
It just seems to me that with bushings as your guide you seem to feel compelled to "turn down to the bushings".
In my opinion, that is often not the best approach.
I like to measure my kit parts, use calipers, and try to turn my blanks just a few thou bigger than the hardware sizes.
For example, if my hardware size is 0.425", I will turn down to 0.430" or 0.432" .... that is, about 0.003" or 0.004" bigger ON THE RADIUS.
My reason is that I always follow the turning with some sanding, which further reduces the size a tiny bit.
Another reason is that, from an aesthetic point of view, a little bigger is MUCH better than a little smaller ... "smaller than hardware" looks bad.

So you can make your life easier and better by learning techniques. . But I don't generally go along with believing in the "difficulty of a kit" as such.

I have never understood why the slimline is a "beginner" kit .... IMHO it is not. . If anything, it is more difficult due to smaller diameter.

When you go to smaller diameter, a 0.001" error is a bigger percentage of the final result and that can show !

Another thing about bushings ... you should never "nick" them with your tools. . Once you do that, throw away the bushings ... they are useless.

Just my two cents worth, as they say !! ..... (but it's really worth more than two cents ...... LOL !!! )

Agree with Mal, a lot of the difficulty arises from crappy instructions, but pretty much anyone can do a decent job turning a little cylinder given a decent lathe and sharp tools, and that's what most kit pens require. There are lots of subtleties involved (as pointed out by John above) that you pick up along the way, learning from your mistakes, but I wouldn't say there is a lot of turning skill involved in most kit based pen-making (no offense intended to anyone) -- the skill comes in with some of the more advanced and creative techniques (e.g. segmenting), bespoke design and construction, etc.

 

[leehljp]

What determines if a kit is considered a beginner kit vs an advanced kit?

There is another aspect to this, and the above - we are all in agreement with. Your question suggests that you may have read, or picked up something along the lines of beginners or advanced kits. I suspect you have been reading some pen catalogs/companies and how they advertise themselves. The truth is as the guys above mentioned, not as catalogs hint. But catalogs use terms and phrases to draw attention to specific kits. The more they differentiate different pens, the more pen kits they can sell. And sometimes they will show some other tool on the same page and how necessary it is to make a better pen. That is the world of advertisement and sales.

Introductory pen kits - cheaper, and then bundled - to get one started. That gives the idea that others are a step up in difficulty. They are not.

The Increasing prices are generally for successively higher quality pen components and kits.

 

[penicillin]

What determines if a kit is considered a beginner kit vs an advanced kit? Is it based on the difficulty of assembly, the size, overall design, or something else? Is it more difficult to achieve a smooth or clean blank to hardware seam/transition in some kits?

I think that "level of difficulty" and "beginner kit" are not necessarily related. See my just-completed post that addresses your question here:

The "Best" Pen Kit for Beginning Pen-Makers

Sometimes we encounter a question or discussion about what kit is "best" for beginning pen-turners to start with. Often the suggestion is a "slimline" pen kit, but I am not convinced that is the best choice, even though it's probably the cheapest. "Cheapest" can often lead you down a road which...

www.penturners.org

Answering your other question, I know some pen kits that make it difficult to match the pen kit hardware to the wood. To cite an example, Rockler's "Long Wood" pen kits have a sharp-edged conical tip that is hard to match with the wood.

 

[LK&T]

As John said above, the concepts and techniques for pen turning are all pretty straightforward.
In my opinion, the slimline style of kit, commonly recommended for beginners, is actually one of the more difficult, partly cuz of small diameter.
Also, the technique of mandrel turning with bushings, also commonly recommended for beginners, is more difficult for me than "turning between centers", or TBC. . I am not sure why that is, but I find TBC much better, using calipers to check the size frequently ... may sound harder but it's not.

Sometimes the difficulty with a particular kit comes from the way the instruction sheet is written .... some companies do a great job with their instructions and some do a very sketchy and inadequate job. . After you have done a few different kits you get to know the techniques and can often dispense with the instructions altogether. . But it is always best to read the instructions in case there are any little tricks to be aware of. . The order of doing things can sometimes be quite important.

You ask ... "Is it more difficult to achieve a smooth or clean blank to hardware seam/transition in some kits?"
My answer is that it is more difficult to achieve smooth/clean transitions if you use bushings as your guide .... but this need not be the case.
It just seems to me that with bushings as your guide you seem to feel compelled to "turn down to the bushings".
In my opinion, that is often not the best approach.
I like to measure my kit parts, use calipers, and try to turn my blanks just a few thou bigger than the hardware sizes.
For example, if my hardware size is 0.425", I will turn down to 0.430" or 0.432" .... that is, about 0.003" or 0.004" bigger ON THE RADIUS.
My reason is that I always follow the turning with some sanding, which further reduces the size a tiny bit.
Another reason is that, from an aesthetic point of view, a little bigger is MUCH better than a little smaller ... "smaller than hardware" looks bad.

So you can make your life easier and better by learning techniques. . But I don't generally go along with believing in the "difficulty of a kit" as such.

I have never understood why the slimline is a "beginner" kit .... IMHO it is not. . If anything, it is more difficult due to smaller diameter.

When you go to smaller diameter, a 0.001" error is a bigger percentage of the final result and that can show !

Another thing about bushings ... you should never "nick" them with your tools. . Once you do that, throw away the bushings ... they are useless.

Just my two cents worth, as they say !! ..... (but it's really worth more than two cents ...... LOL !!! )

I believe you were the first to suggest I TBC instead of use a mandrel when I first showed up on the forum. Man, that was great advice. I didn't like the mandrel from the first time I used it, and TBC using calipers is a good way to do it.

 

[LK&T]

In my vast experience (all twelve pens ) no kit is that much harder than another. As a beginner I made twelve pens using four different kits for Christmas gifts this year. By far, the hardest part is learning to turn the blanks and all that involves. My kits ranged from a few bucks to over $50, but actual assembly was straightforward on all of them. I hear there are kits out there that require making a tenon for the clip to go into; I suppose that'd be a more advanced pen.

 

[LK&T]

Sometimes the difficulty with a particular kit comes from the way the instruction sheet is written .... some companies do a great job with their instructions and some do a very sketchy and inadequate job.

Yes. The Venus kit...... I eventually got that spring in there and the kit works, but I'm STILL not sure where that stupid thing is supposed to go.

 

[leehljp]

I think that "level of difficulty" and "beginner kit" are not necessarily related. See my just-completed post that addresses your question here:

The "Best" Pen Kit for Beginning Pen-Makers

Sometimes we encounter a question or discussion about what kit is "best" for beginning pen-turners to start with. Often the suggestion is a "slimline" pen kit, but I am not convinced that is the best choice, even though it's probably the cheapest. "Cheapest" can often lead you down a road which...

www.penturners.org

Answering your other question, I know some pen kits that make it difficult to match the pen kit hardware to the wood. To cite an example, Rockler's "Long Wood" pen kits have a sharp-edged conical tip that is hard to match with the wood.

Do you use calipers for measuring the matching of the wood to the tip? I have not done that particular kit, but to me, matching / fitting should not be difficult. I have had some custom made tips that required a mental adjustment of sizing. Simply make the round wood blank about .1mm or .2mm larger than the cone size and do a slight round over to match the tip size. This, to me, is not so much of a beginner's kit problem, but a creativity or vision or adjustment.

On second thought, I can see how a "new to turning" person could see this as difficult. For many, that is simply "experience". But as far as that is concerned, that cone is not much different than a slimline nose cone.

 

[penicillin]

(Asking about my assertion that Rockler's Long Wood pen kit can be difficult to match the tip with the wood.)

Do you use calipers for measuring the matching of the wood to the tip? I have not done that particular kit, but to me, matching / fitting should not be difficult. I have had some custom made tips that required a mental adjustment of sizing. Simply make the round wood blank about .1mm or .2mm larger than the cone size and do a slight round over to match the tip size. This, to me, is not so much of a beginner's kit problem, but a creativity or vision or adjustment.

On second thought, I can see how a "new to turning" person could see this as difficult. For many, that is simply "experience". But as far as that is concerned, that cone is not much different than a slimline nose cone.

Background: When I made my first two or three pens, I encountered the same minor matching problems that most beginners have, but learned quickly. It has not been an issue for a long time. Yes, I use calipers.

The Rockler Long Wood pen kits are different than other pens I've made. The tips are large, broad cones with very sharp edges. The slightest mismatch (less than 0.1 mm, for sure) would be felt by the user. If the wood is turned or sanded undersized, then they are quite unforgiving because of those sharp edges. As you suggested, leaving the wood very slightly oversized and then rounding over to match is a good solution.

Other pens are easier because the tip cones have shallower angles or they have design features that compensate or cover up mismatches better.

 

[LK&T]

I've been looking for kits to buy for an hour, and saw the closed end kits at Penn State. Those would definitely be a step up in terms of difficulty.

 

[magpens]

I've been looking for kits to buy for an hour, and saw the closed end kits at Penn State. Those would definitely be a step up in terms of difficulty.

@LK&T

Be careful about buying some of those kits.
As I recall, in some cases they have not been designed all that well, with regard to the visual appeal of the resulting pen.
Those kits appeared 3 or 4 years ago, I think. . I don't think they have been all that well received. .
There were initially 4 such kits and that number has not increased.
If you do a search here on IAP you should find some reports.
I know that it is not all that easy to do a highly directed search but it is a skill worth developing ( I haven't done that ... LOL ! )

Here is one report that I wrote. . It might give you a starting point.

First Closed End Pen - PSI Kit Majestic Jr

PSI has recently released some closed end kits so I decided to try the Majestic Jr. . I modified the hardware for the small top cap to allow a reduced size (height) and I managed to get the whole pen out of a single 6 1/4" blank. The blank is Olivewood. . The overall length is 6.09" so not much...

www.penturners.org

 

[mullinswoodworx]

Wow! lots of replies for me to read through, but it looks like the overall answer is that difficulty levels aren't really a thing.
Thanks, everyone!

 

[chris_11]

Experience is the sum of your mistakes. I am a novice and start out with some cheap kits. There is so much to learn about turning to size, finishing, cuting out blanks, different glues and how to handle them. Always amazed how different they finish from what I expect. I would not start with any threads on wood early but appart from that, if you can drill your blank and turn it TBC, it is straight forward. The multiple tricks you can learn here make IMHO the big difference. Much better than any single instruction video, pdf, or book. Thanks to all of you.

br
Christian

 

[Sawdustsmiles]

In my vast experience (all twelve pens ) no kit is that much harder than another. As a beginner I made twelve pens using four different kits for Christmas gifts this year. By far, the hardest part is learning to turn the blanks and all that involves. My kits ranged from a few bucks to over $50, but actual assembly was straightforward on all of them. I hear there are kits out there that require making a tenon for the clip to go into; I suppose that'd be a more advanced pen.

The European pen requires a tenon for the ring and it is a pain. I don't think one kit is typically easier or more difficult than the next. Slimline kits will quickly point out your mistakes. The good thing is they are inexpensive. I make a pen out of lignam Vitae that was once a bushing in a dam. It is hard and brittle, the grain is very open and much more difficult on a smaller diameter than a larger one. I made three for the big bosses at Georgia Power company at Christmas. I had to get the tools out to cut off the finish three different times on one of them and refinished it a total of five times to deserve the exit of my picky eye and go in the mailbox. If you did twelve at Christmas get ready you are about to be really busy. I turned my first pen just over a year ago. I have turned about 500 since. Now I have a mobile trailer I only turn in. Great at shows. People love watching it take shape just like we do. The first picture if I upload correctly is the European that is a pain the other is the three pens from the wood on the dam

 

[leehljp]

I have to add this into this discussion:

The pen kits themselves are not all that difficult per se. The difficulty comes in the segmenting, casting, dying, stabilizing and finish refinements - and what is difficult to one might be easy to another. "Segmenting & casting" are terms for a WIDE variety of configurations and types.

 

[penicillin]

I want to add another comment about the difficulties of pen kits:

-> Some pen kits are extremely fussy about length. Other pen kits are not.

An example of a fussy pen kit is the Slimline Pro, which is sold by Rockler and Penn State. The combined length of the two tubes must be exactly correct, or the pen tip will be too long or too short. On my first kit, someone told me to leave the blanks about 1/32 inch longer. That adds up to 1/16 inch, about the length of a pen tip when extended. The resulting pen tip was barely visible at all, and it is effectively impossible to disassemble a Slimline Pro. A similar issue can happen if you mill just a little bit too much. These days, I always check my Slimline Pro blanks with calipers before turning and assembly, to make sure they are spot-on perfect length. I know other pen kits that fit the same description.

True confession: In addition, I measure the tubes before gluing them in the pen blanks, just be sure I have the correct ones. On some kits, it really matters.

Bottom line: Pay close attention as you mill the pen blank to match the tubes. Measure afterwards, before turning. Sometimes I chisel off part of the pen mill "rims" so the calipers can take an accurate length measurement.

Some pens require you to cut a tenon to so many 16ths of an inch. What they don't tell you is that if your measurement is off by 1/32 or even less, you may run into issues as well.

Other pen kits are not fussy about length.
Ordinary Slimline pens are easy. You press the transmission (mechanism) into the bottom tube a little short of the line, install the ink refill, and test the mechanism to see how far the pen tip comes out. Remove the refill, press the transmission a little more, and then test again, repeating until the pen tip is perfect. The top of the pen serves as a cap. Because of this adjustability and the "head space" in the cap, there is considerable forgiveness if the length of either half of the pen blank is slightly off. I know other kits that are similar, such as Rockler's Manhattan twist pen (single tube type).

 

[Roger Schlenz]

Simply make the round wood blank about .1mm or .2mm larger than the cone size and do a slight round over to match the tip size.

I have tried this, with minimal success. Sometimes it works well, sometimes not. Are you doing it with mandrel and bushings, or TBC ? Is there a video?