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rjwolfe3

rjwolfe3

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Joined
Feb 12, 2008
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Mansfield, Ohio, USA.
to go to find out who owns copyrights on which cast blanks?:confused:

Every time I think maybe I found an original idea, I search here and see that someone else has done it already. I ask because I want to sell the cast blanks I make and I don't want to get in trouble because someone has a copyright on it.

I know that I can't sell beer cap, cigar label, watch part, fly fishing lures or cactus blanks. What other ones have copyrights on them?:confused:

I really have tried to come up with an original idea but it seems that everyone has thought of them first.

Can anyone help me sort this out?:confused:
 
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No, I am saying that they have a copyright on them and I won't be selling them. However, you may do as you choose. Myself, I would like to protect what little backside I have left.:eek:

hanau said:
so your saying I can't cast my own beer cap, cigar label, watch part and fly fishing lures blanks and sell the completed pen or the blanks?
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Wolf not trying to cause any problems, But been wanting to post this since I don't understand all this copyright stuff and has me confused.

I understand i can not make something identical.
But can you still use the idea and change it a little?

Chevy can't build a Ford and Ford can not build a Chevy. But they both can build cars.
Basically the same idea but different variations of the same thing.

Just trying to understand.
 
You got me, I have no clue either. I just know that every time someone post something similar to something that someone else has posted then that person catches a lot of flak for "stealing" ideas.

I just need to make some money to recoup the cost of my casting supplies. But I want to do it without getting my throat torn out. That's why I am asking where someone goes to find out what is copyrighted and what isn't!
 
Getting awfully close to finding a new hobby I think.

Added------Rob this was not directed at you, I am seriously considering the hobby as a whole. I don't understand the difference in two people making an oak slimline or 2 people making watch pens. Both have been copied from another persons idea so what is the difference and why do we care. Barry made a book telling how to do it so others would, enough said. Irf I get to where I can I'll make it, sell it, photo it, and anything else I can think of. For now I don't have it in me and might just go to turning bowls that are probably copywrite protected as well.
 
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I am really not trying to start anything. I really want to know how to find out. I have a bunch of casting that I will be doing soon and I really want to stay on everyone's good side with this. This is not a sarcastic question but a serious one.
 
rjwolfe3 said:
to go to find out who owns copyrights on which cast blanks?:confused:

Every time I think maybe I found an original idea, I search here and see that someone else has done it already. I ask because I want to sell the cast blanks I make and I don't want to get in trouble because someone has a copyright on it.

I know that I can't sell beer cap, cigar label, watch part, fly fishing lures or cactus blanks. What other ones have copyrights on them?:confused:

I really have tried to come up with an original idea but it seems that everyone has thought of them first.

Can anyone help me sort this out?:confused:
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You can go to the copyright and tradmark website (search on copyright or trademark and you'll find the site) But, that won't really do you any good. There are millions of them.

If you want to find a specific copyright...look at an ad. The advertisement must recognize the copyright and indicate it. Usually it is specific to the picture in the ad. Like Coke....Coca Cola has that copyrighted as it applies to soft drink, but coke is also an English word with another definition over which Coca Cola has no rights.

Trademarks are item specific...in other words some trade marks apply only to the specifid use.

I searched on Gatsby (a PSI trade mark) well there are over 50 trade marks using the word Gatsby about 15 or 20 of them use only the word Gatsby. So PSI's trade mark applies only to the NAME of a style of pen.

But, if you want to use any brand name or logo, assume it is protected. If you can use it without change or modification the company might not object. Unless you're mass producing they probably will never know.
 
So if I want to sell Cast blank X and I do a search here and find someone who made a Cast blank X but there is no copyright mentioned does that mean I am free and clear to sell it even if that person was selling the same blank idea?
 
Probably you can

hanau said:
so your saying I can't cast my own beer cap, cigar label, watch part and fly fishing lures blanks and sell the completed pen or the blanks?
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I doubt that those items are copyrighted....just because someone else has done it doesn't mean it is or even can be copyrighted.
 
My 2 Cents

I am not sure that one can copyright a blank, but then I'm not sure about a lot of things. I think one could copyright a picture of the blank or they could copyright the instructions for making a specific blank. An example that I can think of would be a cook's recipe. You cannot copyright a list of ingredients, however, you can copyright the instructions on how to combine and process those ingredients. Now, it Joe Blank casts a blood red 1x1x6 blank and I like the color, does that mean that I can't cast my own blood red 1x1x6 blanks? I don't think so. It would be interesting to hear what a lawyer has to say on the subject.

Tomas
 
Smitty37 said:
hanau said:
so your saying I can't cast my own beer cap, cigar label, watch part and fly fishing lures blanks and sell the completed pen or the blanks?
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I doubt that those items are copyrighted....just because someone else has done it doesn't mean it is or even can be copyrighted.
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Smitty check this out and you tell me what it means then: http://www.bgartforms.com/common/Copyright-Ecofriendly.pdf

I am confused about this whole matter and am seriously looking for answers about it.
 
I am really hoping this doesn't turn into a big back and forth like the other threads did. I just want to make some cast blanks for sale without catching heck for it. I am pretty sure that snakeskins, coffee beans, and shredded money are safe to make since I see a lot of those in the classified. At least I hope they are. So far no one has yelled at me for the potpourri, pine needles, and pine cones that I have made and sold. I have a ton of other ideas that I am going to try soon but I really want to see what the right thing to do is.
 
Smitty check this out and you tell me what it means then: http://www.bgartforms.com/common/Copyright-Ecofriendly.pdf

I am confused about this whole matter and am seriously looking for answers about it.
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Frankly, I don't think this Certificate of Registration is worth much. Although it mentions watch pens, etc., it describes them as being two-dimensional art work. Also, the wording of that certificate is so vague, I wonder what its purpose really is. The International Star Registry will name a star for you and register it with the US Copyright office. Does that mean every reference to that star now has to have your name on it? Of course not.

Tomas
 
Read this on derivative works. It's quite interesting and thought provoking. (sorry about the non-academic source, but it's all I could find on short notice)

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-derivative-work.htm

Not sure if it's at all applicable to the conversation, but I found it interesting. (assuming 'wise-geek.com' is a definitive source is another matter! :biggrin:)
 
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In that case, I'd forget trying to wade through intense copyright and fair-use law, and instead use my own moral judgement. If it's an exact copy of something that someone else came up with through his/her own trial and error, and his/her own creativity, I wouldn't feel right profiting from it.

Others likely feel differently, but that's my take on it. There's legally right, and there's morally right. I tend to like to satisfy both, personally :smile:
 
rjwolfe3 said:
I am really hoping this doesn't turn into a big back and forth like the other threads did. I just want to make some cast blanks for sale without catching heck for it. I am pretty sure that snakeskins, coffee beans, and shredded money are safe to make since I see a lot of those in the classified. At least I hope they are. So far no one has yelled at me for the potpourri, pine needles, and pine cones that I have made and sold. I have a ton of other ideas that I am going to try soon but I really want to see what the right thing to do is.
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As much as most of other people, I've read, listen and follow enough links and information about this issue, that will last me a life time however, I have and always had a very strong interpretation and believe of rights, as a result my only advice to you and many others is, the issue has created a lot of doubt, confusion, fear and sower taste in many people's mouths, when in reality this is an issue as old as man on earth.

Man would never had created the world we live in today (good or bad) if they had to be worried about the possibility that their thoughts and ideas could have been already though of and/or created by someone else before...!
You have the option to either get "bogged" in this totally stupid red tape, or use your energy to try out all the things you have in your head.

The true inventors, and they were only a few known, never wasted their time and energy, with any of this silly stuff, instead they continued their creations and its improvements, why would one thing that they are the very first human to thing or do something, only because the Government Departments that were invented to register peoples ideas for commercial purposes 99.99% of the time...! Now, can you tell me if anyone has the copyright of the idea of creating these Departments in the first place...??? and why would the idea would have to be copyrighted in the first place...???

Is just totally ridiculous and contra-productive to create this "fear" of trying to created something, letting people know about it and sell it if that is his/hers wishes/needs. We are just letting ourselves fall into a big trap, by allowing the issue to grow the way it did, in fact, we are damaging ourselves quite seriously by allowing the issue to affect us, and we know that we have been affected when we start to doubt of our own rights and ability to creative and be shareful...! Forums like this will stop existing if we continue with this nonsense...!

My advice to you and everyone is simple, ignore the issue totally, concentrate on what is really important to you, get those creative juices flow free and enjoy the fact that you were given that ability...!

Cheers
George
 
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maxwell_smart007 said:
Read this on derivative works. It's quite interesting and thought provoking. (sorry about the non-academic source, but it's all I could find on short notice)

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-derivative-work.htm
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And thus why I tend to lean to the " it's ok to make your own version of item xxx" ... But am not always sure its right (law). Morally I'm pretty happy with my choices in life.... Legally its more difficult to know...

All I want to know is how it can be so grey if it's written in black and white :)
 
I have no problem with making blanks for my own use but my question is can I sell those blanks here without getting jumped on for it? In other words, if I cast some popcorn in a pen and then turn around and offer the blanks for sale here would I get flamed for it? (And yes someone has made a popcorn blank but I don't know if they sold it or copyrighted it.)

The problem is on certain things how do you change them so that they are different then the original? In other words, how do change a cast item so that is different then the predecessors? Popcorn in clear pr is going to pretty look the same no matter how ya cast it. (This is just an example I pulled out of my head, I really can't remember who did the first one, so please don't think I am singling anyone out in this.) The same goes for shredded money, cactus skeletons, coffee beans, cereal, and everything else. They are all going to look very similar.

I'm headed for bed now, I will see what you all have to say in the morning. My head hurts now, lol.
 
If you feel right ripping off someone else and selling it here on IAP while they too are trying to sell the blanks that they originally created, then go for it. There is not any legal ramifications on 99.9999% of the blanks shown/sold here. Your personal ethics will have to dictate whether or not you copy someone else's work for your own personal gain.
 
As for not being able to come up with new things...I call BS on that. I am frequently coming up with new things that have never been posted here before. Some work, some don't, some are not worth my time since I have other things that work well. It's not rocket surgery to figure out something new!
 
Just be careful not to sell something that you cast that has a trademark. Just like colleges and Professional sports logos.

Barry Gross, is selling his watch pens with Micky Mouse and with face backers that have the name of the watch company. That would be a trademark infringement. I don't think his lawyers could out do Disney's lawyers.

You cannot copyright an idea. Make a pen and move something here or there a little bit. It's different.

Great day, who ever thought of in-casing pens in PR ought to Patent that idea. Then nobody here could use PR for any kind of pen.

If you don't want people copying your stuff. Don't put it out there, or what else are runways for?
 
MesquiteMan said:
Grizz said:
If you don't want people copying your stuff. Don't put it out there, or what else are runways for?
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Yep, and without us showing our new ideas, then you will be stuck with just turning plain old oak pens for the rest of your life.
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Yep, no one else though, is permitted to make money off of it or they are the worst creature on the face of the earth.

There is a reason why no one else knows the Coke recipe or the what exactly the 11 herbs and spices are at KFC.

I don't see the man/woman who first decided to 'cast' a pen getting all bent out of shape because others are now doing it. Took many people out of wood and into a different world. And many people are now making some money off that idea.

If we are going to be upset that someone else is casting airplane parts into a pen, even if someone else did it first. Maybe nobody ought to be casting anything into pens... after all someone else thought of casting first.

(I now reserve all rights to the intellectual property of casting airplane parts into a pen, even though I've not done it... I have first given it the thought.) :devil:
 
rjwolfe3 said:
Smitty37 said:
hanau said:
so your saying I can't cast my own beer cap, cigar label, watch part and fly fishing lures blanks and sell the completed pen or the blanks?
Click to expand...

I doubt that those items are copyrighted....just because someone else has done it doesn't mean it is or even can be copyrighted.
Click to expand...

Smitty check this out and you tell me what it means then: http://www.bgartforms.com/common/Copyright-Ecofriendly.pdf

I am confused about this whole matter and am seriously looking for answers about it.
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That's just the registration of his publication on how to do the castings.....that's all, nothing more, nothing less!

Don't go getting yourself tied up over this.....got something you'd like to do....go ahead and do it. I've had ideas of things I'd cast and have seen them done before I had a chance to do it myself. Will I still consider doing it in the future....you betcha ya!!!

Get casting and enjoy yourself!!!


Barney
 
RJWolfe,
I think you should just go ahead and cast whatever it is you've got in mind. Not that I have any legal experience, but from what you've posted here, it is pretty clear that you are an honest person who is trying to do the right thing. Your post count is extremely high and you've been a member of the site for over 2.5 years. If you haven't seen whatever it is you are planning on casting posted here during that time, I'd say it's probably an original idea. If (on the extremely off chance) it does happen to be the intellectual property of somebody else, they would have a difficult time proving that your intent was to maliciously copy them simply because you started this thread. I think we would all agree that your intentions are pure and that we'd all love to see what it is that you've come up with. Cast away.
 
Curtis, I am not trying to rip someone else off. That was the whole point of my post. I really want to know what casting ideas are copyrighted so I don't get posts like this one when I go to sell them. So far I have not seen anyone that casts blanks for sale show me where they have a copyright on any of their ideas. If I were to go back and look through the classified's, how many different shredded money blanks would I find? So because so many people cast and sell shredded money blanks, is it fair game? As far as your second comment, aren't we all copying someone else's work for our own personal gain every time we make a pen for sale? I mean who here was the first one to come up with the idea to make a pen from a wood item or a cast item? There are NO original thoughts. If you look hard enough you can find where someone has done pretty much everything somewhere in the past. Just because they don't post it here does not mean that they didn't think of it first. As it has been pointed out in the past we make up a small percentage of the people out there that make pens.


MesquiteMan said:
If you feel right ripping off someone else and selling it here on IAP while they too are trying to sell the blanks that they originally created, then go for it. There is not any legal ramifications on 99.9999% of the blanks shown/sold here. Your personal ethics will have to dictate whether or not you copy someone else's work for your own personal gain.
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Simple answer. Yes, there is a definitive source of registered copyright in the U.S. It's called the Office of Copyright. They have a searchable database online. If the copyright is not registered, you are on your own, but are unlikely to find yourself in court because violation of unregistered rights in copy are not subject to damages.

Additional facts, not bar room lawyering.

Ideas CANNOT be copyrighted.
Works that have not been fixed in a tangible form of expression are not protected under the Copyright Act, since fixation is one of the prerequisites for copyright protection. Titles, names, short phrases, and slogans are not protected by copyright law. (Source Office of Copyright)
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Ideas, procedures, principles, discoveries, and devices are all specifically excluded from copyright protection. As stated in the Copyright Act:
In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work.
​
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Ideas CANNOT be trademarked.
In short, a trademark is a brand name. A trademark includes any word, name, symbol, device, or any combination, used, or intended to be used, in commerce to identify and distinguish the goods of one manufacturer or seller from goods manufactured or sold by others, and to indicate the source of the goods. A service mark is any word, name, symbol, device, or any combination, used, or intended to be used, in commerce, to identify and distinguish the services of one provider from services provided by others, and to indicate the source of the services. (Source USPTO)
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Ideas CANNOT be patented.
A patent cannot be obtained upon a mere idea or suggestion. The patent is granted upon the new machine, manufacture, etc., as has been said, and not upon the idea or suggestion of the new machine. A complete description of the actual machine or other subject matter for which a patent is sought is required. (Source USPTO)[Special note: You can patent an idea if it relates to a physical process or an item like a machine or piece of equipment - eg a new kind of zipper or a new laminated fabric.]
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The final issue is an ethical one. Should you profit from someone else's work? You cannot regulate ethics. Each individual has a right to establish their own.
 
This is what I think I am going to do. I am going to make my casts. If I do a search and find no one selling them then I will post them in the classified. If someone notices one that is copyrighted or that someone else is selling, please pm me and I will remove it. And I will put on my suit of armor before I post so that I can withstands the flames.:devil:
 
Sounds reasonable. Just keep in mind, not everyone who claims to be the originator of a blank actually is. Also, you'll get a lot of "Hey, I made a blank like that years ago but never posted pics" kinds of comments.

Also, the idea of "If someone notices one that is copyrighted" is not really good. I think the common understanding of the law is that you cant copyright the physical blank, you can only copyright the idea of the design of the blank. Bottom line is, I can imagine up 100 ideas (cast ants, cast dirt, cast cat poop, cast beetle wings, cast fishhooks, cast caterpillars, cast fingernail clippings, cast leaves, cast hair, cast flax seeds) and copyright them all, but that doesn't mean it's against the law for someone to produce and sell the blanks. Basicly copyrighting the idea does nothing more than give you bragging rights. It's not the same as a patent. That's my understanding of it.
 
This is strictly my opinion. I do alot of casting, mostly just color swirls. I have done some experimenting with casting burl peices and other items. If you look at the classifieds you see alot of people selling cast burl peices, as well as these other items. I think as long as you do not name your castings the same name as theirs you are in the clear. If it's something that only 1 person is making and selling, I'd send that person a PM and ask if his work is protected by any copyright or trademark. I would assume that if they said yes they could provide a copy of the legal document proving it. If they don't have it protected then it's your moral compass that will guide you to make it or not. From what i've been reading you are definitly trying to do the right thing here and are being considerate to your fellow members. I admire that bc I try to do the same. Some people do it strictly for the $, Most do it for the sake of making art and sharing it openly. Best of luck and happy casting!
 
rjwolfe3 said:
I am really not trying to start anything. I really want to know how to find out. I have a bunch of casting that I will be doing soon and I really want to stay on everyone's good side with this. This is not a sarcastic question but a serious one.
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Yes you are ... this question has been beat to death and answered time and time again.

I think it is time to let it die the death it deserves.
 
I'm not a lawyer, and I certainly don't play one on TV. And because this field is called 'INTELLECTUAL property law', I probably am fundamentally unequipped for it.

But as DCBluesman said, you can't copyright, trademark or patent an IDEA. You can only copyright a THING - a creation.

There's no crime in making a pen that is similar to one you saw someone else make. There is a long tradition in art that students learn by copying the work of those who precede them. But if that person posts a photograph of his pen in the internet, and you then snag that photograph and post it to illustrate your pen, you have violated his copyright.

The issue of trademarks is actually less confusing. You can't make and sell a bunch of pens that feature a trademarked logo - the Coke logo, for example - without an agreement with the owner of the trademark (which usually means that you must pay a royalty for using the trademark). There's probably little risk in including a logo on ONE pen that you make and use yourself, or a second pen that you give to your brother-in-law, simply because there's essentially no risk that Coca Cola would ever know (or care) about these isolated uses. The issue comes when you engage in commerce; the use of a trademarked logo implies that thing you are selling is somehow related to or approved by the company that owns the logo you use, and its that implied association that may stimulate the trademark owner to come after you.

Both copyright and trademark are concepts that protect the intellectual property rights of the creator of things. Whether the creator chooses to enforce those rights is entirely his decision.
 
An IDEA is something that can not be covered by a patent, copyright or trademark. There is a simple reason for this. It is because an idea is something that is not tangeable. To the question of what constitutes intellectual property, I have posted a quote from the USPTO website below.

"It is imagination made real. It is the ownership of dream, an idea, an improvement, an emotion that we can touch, see, hear, and feel. It is an asset just like your home, your car, or your bank account."

This is not to interject some sort of moral, ethical or legal judgment, and probably does not help Rob one iota.:frown: But I hope this might let in a little sunshine on the confusion for those reading this thread.

The USPTO page and a simple chart outlining the various forms of protection (including some not previously mentioned) can be viewed here.
 
rjwolfe3 said:
Smitty37 said:
hanau said:
so your saying I can't cast my own beer cap, cigar label, watch part and fly fishing lures blanks and sell the completed pen or the blanks?
Click to expand...

I doubt that those items are copyrighted....just because someone else has done it doesn't mean it is or even can be copyrighted.
Click to expand...

Smitty check this out and you tell me what it means then: http://www.bgartforms.com/common/Copyright-Ecofriendly.pdf

I am confused about this whole matter and am seriously looking for answers about it.
Click to expand...


This copyright is for two dimensinal art form (Photo or painting) i see no mention of any solid 3 dimension object in there. This horse is more than beatten, it's ketchup now !!
 
Rob,

Just look at it this way: If it's a good idea for a pen, Barry has it copyrighted. If he missed it, Dawn has it copyrighted. So, just send all good ideas (after you have several hundred cast) to Dawn--we'll figure it out from there!!!

Thanks!!


(Yes, tongue is firmly in cheek and no offense is meant to Barry---if I offended Dawn, well....... she's used to it!!)
 
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rjwolf;

Just my HUMBLE opinion, make the blanks you want. If you feel in all faith that you are not copying someone elses idea I don't see a problem. If someone says, 'hey, thats my idea and I don't want you to use it' then don't. The first action is not going to be to sue you.

If smoeone shows they have propriotary rights to a process then by all means stop selling that item. Wait 'til it happens before getting paranoid. If you are uncomfortable proceeding with making castings then you probably better not.

Again, I have dog in the fight or irons in the fire. You ask for opinions and those are mine. In the end you must do what you feel is best for you.

Good luck in whatever direction you decide.

Carl
 
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